Dungeon Crawl Classics Questions/Opinions
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Post Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:02 pm 
 

JasonZavoda wrote:
Was that the list price? I think it's going to be a real gem of a collectable, but they don't do paypal so that left me out when Joe brought it up on the Goodman site.


Yup, that was the original list price.


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Post Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 4:12 am 
 

Hi everyone, I am new to this thread and DCC, just wondering if there is any value difference between the (old?) lasso logo and newer circular logo on the DCC items? Thanks!

  

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Post Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 9:53 am 
 

HermitFromPluto wrote:Hi everyone, I am new to this thread and DCC, just wondering if there is any value difference between the (old?) lasso logo and newer circular logo on the DCC items? Thanks!


Hello Hermit!

Not particularly, unless you are just a completist.   More value (or interest) is assigned different covers for different printings (ex: DCC #1 has several different covers) than the lasso vs non-lasso versions.

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Post Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 9:59 am 
 

Badmike wrote:
Hello Hermit!

Not particularly, unless you are just a completist.   More value (or interest) is assigned different covers for different printings (ex: DCC #1 has several different covers) than the lasso vs non-lasso versions.

Mike B.


There is a bit of a guide to printings on the Goodman forums that talks about printings and some of their differences. DCC#13, if I remember correctly, has some color pictures in the first print but is b/w in the 2nd.

  

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Post Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 4:17 pm 
 

JasonZavoda wrote: ...
Well the Soup Nazi says "No Soup For You!" which is fine. I've picked up what I was looking for and was buying to stock up on some collectables. As far as new items from Goodman, well, DCC used to offer up some great soup, Lobster Bisque, Jambalaya... but now they just have chicken noodle, pretty much the same chicken noodle offered by everyone else, the cans certainly look the same. I'm really not too disappointed to miss out on a can of chicken noodle.
...


I'm curious about your whole soup analogy here.  Given that the look of the cans have changed, in what way does this affect the soup inside?  How does the change in cover design affect the quality of the adventure itself?  Are you saying because they are now written for 4E they are not as good, or are you saying they are not as good because the writing has somehow changed for the worse to go along with the new look?

For the record I don't exactly like the new look either, but apart from the mechanical and design philosophies of 3E vs 4E I don't see the adventure quality necessarily being different.  i.e. if they were bad modules under 3E they are still going to be bad modules under 4E, and likewise if they were good modules then they are probably still good modules now regardless of the cans they come packaged in.  How are they now the same chicken noodle offered by everyone else?  The game has changed that is for sure but it is the same stable of authors writing for their Aerth campaign setting, that hasn't changed.  They are just not 1E collectible (if they ever were that) as they used to be with the old cans.  Personally I bought the old DCCs because I thought they were some really good adventures (for the most part) AND I liked the way they were presented in a very reminiscent 1E style.  Now that half that equation is different it is a good excuse to stop buying them.  Truth be told even if the look remained the same I would have chosen #52 as the cutoff and stopped there.  The market has changed since DCC first started coming out, with some smaller publishers putting out their 1E creations.  True most of it is print on demand, but that wasn't even an option before.  In 2002  Idylls of the Rat King looked very 1E, now in 2008 there are real 1E modules to purchase if you want that sort of thing.

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Post Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 4:34 pm 
 

islestrike wrote:Given that the look of the cans have changed, in what way does this affect the soup inside?

Beauty may not be skin deep, but beauty is -- at least in part -- determined by one's looks.

The production values of a module (fonts, layout, colors, art, word choice) can ignite the imagination, spark excitement, and even rekindle feelings you last had in your younger days.

It doesn't matter how technically awesome a module is if you don't get excited to read it and running it. Yes, reading it may provide all the excitement that is necessary, but for those who desire a retro feel, a retro look can be the spark that lights the fire.

Emotion is a big deal when selling product. And in the case of a product that someone looks at when using, emotion is a big deal when *using* that product.

Compare to the automotive industry: There are a wide variety of cars all with wildly different looks. Often, it doesn't matter how long of a warranty a car has, or how high of gas mileage; sometimes the appearance of the car means a lot!

  

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Post Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 4:50 pm 
 

Afraid of the Dark wrote:Beauty may not be skin deep, but beauty is -- at least in part -- determined by one's looks.

The production values of a module (fonts, layout, colors, art, word choice) can ignite the imagination, spark excitement, and even rekindle feelings you last had in your younger days.

It doesn't matter how technically awesome a module is if you don't get excited to read it and running it. Yes, reading it may provide all the excitement that is necessary, but for those who desire a retro feel, a retro look can be the spark that lights the fire.

Emotion is a big deal when selling product. And in the case of a product that someone looks at when using, emotion is a big deal when *using* that product.

Compare to the automotive industry: There are a wide variety of cars all with wildly different looks. Often, it doesn't matter how long of a warranty a car has, or how high of gas mileage; sometimes the appearance of the car means a lot!


I agree.  The look of 3E DCC modules was what had me.  Now that the look has changed (and apparantly, Otus, Roslof, Dee and Holloway are dumped) I'm just not as interested. With these guys, the appearance of their artwork triggers very, very nostalgic endorphins within my mind, and I happily go back to those carefree days of high school.  I'd say for me the old school looks were the main component of why I first started collecting DCCs.

I'll confess I'll pretty much buy ANYTHING with a Otus cover (I'd buy an Erol Otus illustrated cookbook...many, those would be some funky looking green bean casseroles!!!)  :D

Now that Goodman is putting out Cthulhu supplements, any chance of Otus getting a chance at illustrating one of those?????  

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Post Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 4:50 pm 
 

But the reverse to true, too, right? A great cover by Erol Otus is worthless is the adventure is crap. (Ala some of the offerings we've been seeing of late.)

Slapping a "1E" label on something doesn't make something inherently better or more (even if a 4E label DOES make it inherently worth less).

  


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Post Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 4:52 pm 
 

Badmike wrote:I agree.  The look of 3E DCC modules was what had me.  Now that the look has changed (and apparantly, Otus, Roslof, Dee and Holloway are dumped) I'm just not as interested.


At Gen Con I heard folks saying that Otus would be back. Don't know about Roslof or Holloway (and sadly, Dee, my favorite of the old school artists just seems a little "off" these days).

  

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Post Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 5:00 pm 
 

goatboy wrote:But the reverse to true, too, right? A great cover by Erol Otus is worthless is the adventure is crap.

Worthless? Nah. Like many others here, there are mechanically "icky" products I own purely because I like the way it looks, or because some of some equally superficial/nostalgic factor.

I may not run/play those sorts of things, but I might draw inspiration from them (especially from the art!) and I'll most certainly collect them! :D

  

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Post Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 5:54 pm 
 

islestrike wrote:
I'm curious about your whole soup analogy here.  Given that the look of the cans have changed, in what way does this affect the soup inside?  How does the change in cover design affect the quality of the adventure itself?  Are you saying because they are now written for 4E they are not as good, or are you saying they are not as good because the writing has somehow changed for the worse to go along with the new look?

For the record I don't exactly like the new look either, but apart from the mechanical and design philosophies of 3E vs 4E I don't see the adventure quality necessarily being different.  i.e. if they were bad modules under 3E they are still going to be bad modules under 4E, and likewise if they were good modules then they are probably still good modules now regardless of the cans they come packaged in.  How are they now the same chicken noodle offered by everyone else?  The game has changed that is for sure but it is the same stable of authors writing for their Aerth campaign setting, that hasn't changed.  They are just not 1E collectible (if they ever were that) as they used to be with the old cans.  Personally I bought the old DCCs because I thought they were some really good adventures (for the most part) AND I liked the way they were presented in a very reminiscent 1E style.  Now that half that equation is different it is a good excuse to stop buying them.  Truth be told even if the look remained the same I would have chosen #52 as the cutoff and stopped there.  The market has changed since DCC first started coming out, with some smaller publishers putting out their 1E creations.  True most of it is print on demand, but that wasn't even an option before.  In 2002  Idylls of the Rat King looked very 1E, now in 2008 there are real 1E modules to purchase if you want that sort of thing.

Cheers!


The cover is a good warning of what is inside. It sets the ground, helps to create an atmosphere, but it also speaks volumes about a change in attitude and direction for the DCC line.

Now that I have had a chance to go through DCC#53 a bit and look through #54 and #55 I am even more appalled at the change in the DCC line. The artwork is sparce, the stat blocks for creatures and traps eats up the pages of the adventure by what looks to be 20-25%. The format has been changed dramaticly.

They say a picture is worth a thousand words and with the old DCC line the pictures fit beautifully into a 1e style campaign.

My plans for my DCC collection have been to index them, revise them for 1e and review them. I wasn't going to go past DCC#52 but it will be interesting to set the old DCC line with the new and do a comparison.

So not only has the outside of the cans been changed but the interior as well. Style and format to begin with, quality of the adventure will take longer to assess. I'm going through the 4e rulebooks at the moment but after I am good with the rules I will run through these new DCCs and see what they taste like...

The label says chicken soup, pop open the can and the inside looks like chicken soup, will it taste like chicken soup? Will it be good, bad or standard fare, I don't know yet, but it ain't no Jambalaya.

  

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Post Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 5:56 pm 
 

Afraid of the Dark wrote:Worthless? Nah. Like many others here, there are mechanically "icky" products I own purely because I like the way it looks, or because some of some equally superficial/nostalgic factor.

I may not run/play those sorts of things, but I might draw inspiration from them (especially from the art!) and I'll most certainly collect them! :D


As a DM I change modules all around, steal bits and pieces of plot, character, tricks and traps from any source, write my own material quite a bit, but I have no hand for drawing. For the artwork was an invaluable resource outside of my capabilities.

The artwork of a module was worth as much or more to me than anything else about it.

  

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Post Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 6:09 pm 
 

Goodman Games has choice.  As a company their choice has to be towards making as much money as possible.  They have to keep going with WOTC.  If they don't they will cease to exist.  I agree that the new mods don't look that great but without support or liscencing from WOTC Goodman would be nothing.  Personally I don't like the new look but I know why they have done it and have no problem with this.  The continued existence of Goodman is of benefit to all....like the 1E mods they may occasionally produce...and long may they last. :salut:

  

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Post Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 6:23 pm 
 

simonmwh wrote:Goodman Games has choice.  As a company their choice has to be towards making as much money as possible.  They have to keep going with WOTC.  If they don't they will cease to exist.  I agree that the new mods don't look that great but without support or liscencing from WOTC Goodman would be nothing.  Personally I don't like the new look but I know why they have done it and have no problem with this.  The continued existence of Goodman is of benefit to all....like the 1E mods they may occasionally produce...and long may they last. :salut:


Actually I think WOTC has boned Goodman pretty hard. The success of 4e isn't a given, especially because Hasbro demands only big success from WOTC. If Paizo and other 3rd party companies split the market or even take too big a chunk of it from WOTC then we may see an end to 4e or a quick jump to something different from them, leaving 3rd party 4e publishers with their pants around their legs.

Without WOTC draconian license agreement we could have seen a continuation of the old DCC style and even system alongside 4e material and we may yet.

As consumers we have a voice both vocal and monetary. If we don't tell companies what we want and what we don't want then how will they ever get it right and print the things we gamers like?

Goodman is taking what they think is the most prosperous course and they may have been tired of the old 1e style line of DCC material anyway. That is their choice. But I think it is more of a gamble than they anticipated hence the intense reaction to criticism.

As a consumer I want to see 1e or 1e style material, otherwise Goodman games and the DCC line is useless to me.

  

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Post Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 6:35 pm 
 

No two ways about it...WOTC has boned Goodman but what else will they do?  There is money in it all round for them so they have to go that route.  From our point of view it isn't good as the people here tend to be older and more used to the earlier versions of D & D.  Things do move on.  I want there to be unlimited releases of 1E style material but it will never happen........having said that......any ideas how much it costs to get a mod published?  I know Goodman staff read this as do some ex-TSR peeps.  There are enough people here to chip in.....would we break even? :?:

My point is that it is a very tricky thing to do to keeps an indy games company going and not something that most of us would have the courage to do.  Goodman are doing what they have to do.

  


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Post Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 5:34 pm 
 

simonmwh wrote:<<snip>>

I want there to be unlimited releases of 1E style material but it will never happen........having said that......any ideas how much it costs to get a mod published?  I know Goodman staff read this as do some ex-TSR peeps.  There are enough people here to chip in.....would we break even? :?:

My point is that it is a very tricky thing to do to keeps an indy games company going and not something that most of us would have the courage to do.  Goodman are doing what they have to do.



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[end using best Jedi Master voice]


All joking aside, I too would like to see a steady flow of (O)AD&D adventures released for the forseeable future.  My regular group prefers AD&D over all other games, and having a steady flow of newly released (O)AD&D adventures available is very appealing to this time-constrained DM.  

A number of small RPG publishers have released numerous (O)AD&D adventures over the last 3 years.  You all know the publishers by name: Expeditious Retreat Press, Pied Piper Publishing, Goblinoid Games, Ronin Arts, and Goodman Games, to name the more familiar ones.  However, as has been suggested in numerous messageboards, the actual demand for such releases from buying customers numbers in the low hundreds.  A case in point is the recently-released Saga of the Rat King, the print run for which was been reported here at the Acaeum as being 300 copies.  And copies are still available.

I am presently doing some hands-on research to see what the cost model would look like to do a print release of a typical AD&D module.  I can tell you that the printing costs by themselves are all over the chart, from as low as $2 per copy to well over $6 per copy.  The other costs that factor into a module's release (artwork, writing and development, editing, layout, not to mention marketing and distribution) are likewise all over the chart.  

Where the rubber meets the road, so to speak, from the research that I've done to this point is whether the number of actual units sold will be sufficient to cover not only the complete cost of the first module, but will also provide some funding for the next release.   In other words, will the first module pay for itself and provide (to one degree or another) for a self-sustaining and self-funding enterprise?.  

If the answer is a yes, then there's viability.  If the answer is no, the first release doesn't generate enough sales to pay for itself and part of the next one, then the enterprise is doomed to be a short-lived cash suck on the principals involved.

While I don't really have anything concrete to talk about at this stage, I am continuing with the research and am encouraged by my findings to date.  
If this comes together, please be asured that you all will be among the first to know.  

Jon



  


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Post Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:44 pm 
 

TacoJohn is going rogue? I have to confess that I'd get in line for more mexican goodness.

  


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Post Posted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 1:40 pm 
 

DCC #30: Vault of the Dragon Kings Tournament Edition (Box Set)

http://www.rpgshop.com/default/dcc-30-vault-of-the-dragon-kings-tournament-edition-1.html

Hi all,

I know the DCC #30 box sets have been rather difficult to locate recently, but RPGShop.com has a few of these left at their distributor ($67.29 + shipping). I ordered one set last Thursday and it arrived today in minty, shrink wrapped condition.  (And yes, I'm not going to open it! ;)

The owner of the store was very courteous and even confirmed that the box sets were in stock with his distributor before I placed my order.  Anyway, thought others here might want to pick up the deal while it lasts.

Get 'em while they're hot! :D  :D


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