Dungeon Crawl Classics Questions/Opinions
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Post Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 6:59 pm 
 

tacojohn4547 wrote:
Please don't read this as excusing what seems to be very poor customer service, but I do suspect that your orders are coming from a third-party warehouser/distributor/advertising company that handles order fulfilment for a lot of small RPG publishers, not from Goodman Games directly.

Companies like Goodman, Expeditious Retreat Press, Troll Lord Games and others don't each individually have the warehouse and distribution facilities it takes to function as small game publishing companies, but collectively they can keep one or two warehouse & distribution companies busy.  

In this case, between the post-Gen Con chaos and the d20 End is Near Sell-off sales, I'm guessing the wholesale/distributor guys are just swamped.  And it sounds like they're fumbling orders and irritating customers in the process.  Which in turn reflects badly on the publishers.  

Just my 2 cp's worth.


Yeah, I ordered DCC#52 back in August and it didn't ship with my first batch.  I contacted Keith and he had it sent on August 30th.  I still haven't received it yet, but communication with Keith has been great through everything.  I don't need it right away, so I'm not worried. 8)


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Post Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 10:05 pm 
 

JasonZavoda wrote:More fun from Goodman games.

I asked for a tracking number on the package they were suppossed to send me to make up for the items not included in the last shipment. Instead a get a terse email telling me that they sent the package and it arrived last week. (Which was the package missing the items which started all this).

I don't expect them to remember every order offhand but I do expect them to keep records of incomplete orders and problems they are having with their ordering/inventory system. I'd like to just get my order but pretty soon I will have to file for a refund through paypal or miss the deadline.

They are one disorganized company.


Jason,

We will be sending you a refund for the two missing pieces. In future interactions, should I continue to treat you with the same respect you treat us?


Other folks,

When we have sales, we tend to get slammed with orders and sometimes get backed up. Some customers are willing to put up with a little delay to get a 50% discount, others not so much. Hopefully the discount is worth it.


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Post Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 10:12 pm 
 

Hey Joe, nice to see you. :)

Any truth to the rumors you're looking for more people to do C&C DCCs? ;)

(Had to hijack to ask since I don't go to the GG forums -- just don't have the time.)


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Post Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 11:05 pm 
 

goodmangames wrote:
Jason,

We will be sending you a refund for the two missing pieces. In future interactions, should I continue to treat you with the same respect you treat us?


Other folks,

When we have sales, we tend to get slammed with orders and sometimes get backed up. Some customers are willing to put up with a little delay to get a 50% discount, others not so much. Hopefully the discount is worth it.


I ordered these items in good faith. I did not ask for a refund, just for the items I ordered. I sent Goodman Games the information they needed to correct the problem. Received an apology that appears to have been worth nothing, and a promise to have that problem corrected.

Instead of asking more about the problem with the order they simply tell me that I've received my tracking number and package and that it arrived a week ago. I replied immediately. I sent them copies again of the invoice number, the paypal receipt I received, the emails they sent me apologizing and saying that they would correct the problem a week ago, which they seem to have immediately forgotten.

This isn't about a delay in shipping. This is about a company that can't put together a simple file on a customers orders and keep them up to date. A company that can't flag a problem order and correct it or reply to a question about an order without taking it as a personal insult.

If I'd wanted to personally insult Joe Goodman I wouldn't have sent Goodman Games an invoice and receipt and copies of emails. I'd just have called him a strutting tin-plated dictator with delusions of godhood or some such thing, and maybe a rude poem about him...

Could a Goodland hold a Goodman Joe?
Aye, aye! I sigh, it could, although
Had he not a wooden head
His ego'd strain a mountain instead
(Sincere apologies to L.Frank Baum)
( To Joe, the Nome King, promises promises watch out for eggs.)

A decent company, like a decent ebay seller, doesn't equate a good deal with bad service and feel that is what a customer deserves. I can't believe that Goodman Games feels that because they are selling at a discount their customers should expect to be treated as second class buyers.

I can be an angry prick at times, but my emails to Goodman Games were all just business with a little anxious customer thrown in.

I'd certainly have bought more from this sale. I like the old DCC line, though the new one looks like the same old same old being dished out by wotc or paizo.

NOTE: By the way Joe, since you sent me a payment instead of a refund I was charged fees by paypal. I know you guys have a hard time getting anything involving forms or numbers correct so I'm not surprised. It turns out you still owe me money, but since your word isn't any good I won't expect you to pay.

  

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Post Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 1:20 am 
 

goodmangames wrote:
Jason,

We will be sending you a refund for the two missing pieces. In future interactions, should I continue to treat you with the same respect you treat us?


Other folks,

When we have sales, we tend to get slammed with orders and sometimes get backed up. Some customers are willing to put up with a little delay to get a 50% discount, others not so much. Hopefully the discount is worth it.


Joe, we know you guys are busy with the sale.  But I don't think it's too much to ask that the orders are dealt with correctly, and that there be communication. Hell, the delay isn't a problem, anyone here that ordered Bottle City from PPP last year put up with a 6+month wait.  And if PPP had just showed a ounce of willingness to communicate with the product buyers that would have never developed how it did. I guess the point is we expect more from Goodman. Good deals don't equal bad service, at least it shouldn't from a respected company like Goodman.

People will put up with a heckuva lot if they just get straight talk. Anyway good luck with the new line, hope you guys can keep producing the 1st Edition specials....

Mike B.


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Post Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 7:25 am 
 

Badmike wrote:Joe, we know you guys are busy with the sale.  But I don't think it's too much to ask that the orders are dealt with correctly, and that there be communication. Hell, the delay isn't a problem, anyone here that ordered Bottle City from PPP last year put up with a 6+month wait.  And if PPP had just showed a ounce of willingness to communicate with the product buyers that would have never developed how it did. I guess the point is we expect more from Goodman. Good deals don't equal bad service, at least it shouldn't from a respected company like Goodman.


I hate to do it, but if Jason's posts are going to generate thoughts like this, I have to say something. Please read over Jason's posts on this thread, and then read his posts on the Goodman Games forum... and then draw your own conclusions about the nature of what he calls his "polite" emails to my staff. It's generally considered okay for a customer to publicly post his side of story, and it's generally considered unprofessional for a company to publicly post its side of what may have been a very different experience from what the customer stated. So I'm not going to go into detail, nor am I going to quote Jason's private emails to us the way he publicly quotes our private emails to him. But I am going to say: there are a lot of people here saying they had a good experience... and one person saying he had a bad experience... and that customer has a very public history of incendiary comments. At this point it is better for my staff if I refund every order Jason places than expose them to more interaction with him. There are two sides to every story... so please base your conclusions on more than one data point, and feel free to place an order and create your own experience. :)

It's like Weird Pete's Game Pit in KODT -- "Whitey Morain, you are banned from the premises!"


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Post Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 7:26 am 
 

And as a side note, not sure if anyone saw this, but as of a couple weeks ago there was a copy of the DCC #30 boxed set waiting to be had:

http://www.goodman-games.com/forums/vie ... =20&t=5031


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Post Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 11:23 am 
 

goodmangames wrote:And as a side note, not sure if anyone saw this, but as of a couple weeks ago there was a copy of the DCC #30 boxed set waiting to be had:

http://www.goodman-games.com/forums/vie ... =20&t=5031


I think its gone. Either that or in my haste to try to look through their website I've missed it.  :(

  


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Post Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 1:54 pm 
 

simonmwh wrote:I think its gone. Either that or in my haste to try to look through their website I've missed it.  :(


Try giving them a call. They frequently have inventory on their shelves that is not on their web site (speaking from experience as I shop there regularly). I'm pretty sure that DCC #30 is still on the shelf waiting to be loved. And they have a lot of other gems that aren't online, either.


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Post Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 2:19 pm 
 

goodmangames wrote:
Try giving them a call. They frequently have inventory on their shelves that is not on their web site (speaking from experience as I shop there regularly). I'm pretty sure that DCC #30 is still on the shelf waiting to be loved. And they have a lot of other gems that aren't online, either.


Yeah, I just called and they have it.  Just one copy.  Shrinkwrapped and $79.99. :)   I don't have it, but I don't want it.

(847) space 577 dash 9656.

Whoever gets it owes me something. :wink:


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Post Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 2:39 pm 
 

goodmangames wrote:
I hate to do it, but if Jason's posts are going to generate thoughts like this, I have to say something. Please read over Jason's posts on this thread, and then read his posts on the Goodman Games forum... and then draw your own conclusions about the nature of what he calls his "polite" emails to my staff. It's generally considered okay for a customer to publicly post his side of story, and it's generally considered unprofessional for a company to publicly post its side of what may have been a very different experience from what the customer stated. So I'm not going to go into detail, nor am I going to quote Jason's private emails to us the way he publicly quotes our private emails to him. But I am going to say: there are a lot of people here saying they had a good experience... and one person saying he had a bad experience... and that customer has a very public history of incendiary comments. At this point it is better for my staff if I refund every order Jason places than expose them to more interaction with him. There are two sides to every story... so please base your conclusions on more than one data point, and feel free to place an order and create your own experience. :)

It's like Weird Pete's Game Pit in KODT -- "Whitey Morain, you are banned from the premises!"



Look at this as an ebay transaction, not too high a standard to hold a company to. I sent my money in, the item arrived incomplete and very late. I was promised that this would be corrected, but instead a week later the seller has forgotten all about the problem and not shipped the replacement items. So I write again, resend all the information, and then the seller posts negative comments and won't send the items I won.

This is such a familiar experience with shady ebay sellers, but a real shock from an established game company.

As far as what I've written here and on Goodman Games site.

I've complained about the change from the old DCC classic 1e style, and had snarky replies from Joe Goodman. On the Goodman site, since he is the boss and Nome King, he deleted my last reply and posted his own version. Very handy to be able to do that. As far as my other posts on Goodman's site they've all been about what a good deal the end of an era sale is and that people should snap up their old games.

Joe Goodman doesn't like hearing that customers don't like the new style of the DCC covers. Fine.

As far as my posts here, they are the same thing for the most part. I don't like the new DCC covers, and I do like the DCC sale.

But one more thing about my posts here. I don't care for their shipping service.

1) The packaging job is very sub standard. No protection against the elements. No protection against corners being bent or dinged on modules.

I have read the same complaints from other people right here.

2) The shipping time and delays have had a number of people posting wondering where their package has gone to and when it will arrive. I've posted that my first two order came quickly but this last order has been a nightmare.

Now Joe seems to feel that if a customer complains honestly about the service his company provides that they are out to get him. What I wanted was better service and the items I ordered (undamaged).

Well the Soup Nazi says "No Soup For You!" which is fine. I've picked up what I was looking for and was buying to stock up on some collectables. As far as new items from Goodman, well, DCC used to offer up some great soup, Lobster Bisque, Jambalaya... but now they just have chicken noodle, pretty much the same chicken noodle offered by everyone else, the cans certainly look the same. I'm really not too disappointed to miss out on a can of chicken noodle.

I still say, stock up on the Lobster Bisque and the Jambalaya.

Maybe this will get Joe on the ball about shipping times and keeping orders straight. Maybe they will now keep a file on customers with up to date emails and problems with orders. Maybe they will pack their items better so that they are protected from the elements when UPS leaves them on the doorstep or add some kind of protection to keep boxed sets from being caved in or corners dinged.

But I don't think Joe Goodman himself will change. He's right. His products and shipping are perfect. Customers shouldn't complain about late shipping or damaged items, they should pay to have them returned because it is a privilage to buy his games, not a right. His new look for the DCC line is perfect too, and anyone who doesn't like it, "No Soup For You!' (But you've got to offer something more than Chicken Noodle for that to be effective. And Joe, you're no Weird Pete, and I am much more Crutch than Whitey Moran. Is Goodman Games anything like Hard 8 ?)

Joe, if you've got backorders to fill and customers packages waiting to be shipped what are you wasting time here for fighting with me? (And you still owe me money Joey).

  

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Post Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 2:41 pm 
 

benjoshua wrote:
Yeah, I just called and they have it.  Just one copy.  Shrinkwrapped and $79.99. :)   I don't have it, but I don't want it.

(847) space 577 dash 9656.

Whoever gets it owes me something. :wink:


Was that the list price? I think it's going to be a real gem of a collectable, but they don't do paypal so that left me out when Joe brought it up on the Goodman site.

  

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Post Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:02 pm 
 

JasonZavoda wrote:
Was that the list price? I think it's going to be a real gem of a collectable, but they don't do paypal so that left me out when Joe brought it up on the Goodman site.


Yup, that was the original list price.


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Post Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 4:12 am 
 

Hi everyone, I am new to this thread and DCC, just wondering if there is any value difference between the (old?) lasso logo and newer circular logo on the DCC items? Thanks!

  

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Post Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 9:53 am 
 

HermitFromPluto wrote:Hi everyone, I am new to this thread and DCC, just wondering if there is any value difference between the (old?) lasso logo and newer circular logo on the DCC items? Thanks!


Hello Hermit!

Not particularly, unless you are just a completist.   More value (or interest) is assigned different covers for different printings (ex: DCC #1 has several different covers) than the lasso vs non-lasso versions.

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Post Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 9:59 am 
 

Badmike wrote:
Hello Hermit!

Not particularly, unless you are just a completist.   More value (or interest) is assigned different covers for different printings (ex: DCC #1 has several different covers) than the lasso vs non-lasso versions.

Mike B.


There is a bit of a guide to printings on the Goodman forums that talks about printings and some of their differences. DCC#13, if I remember correctly, has some color pictures in the first print but is b/w in the 2nd.

  

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Post Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 4:17 pm 
 

JasonZavoda wrote: ...
Well the Soup Nazi says "No Soup For You!" which is fine. I've picked up what I was looking for and was buying to stock up on some collectables. As far as new items from Goodman, well, DCC used to offer up some great soup, Lobster Bisque, Jambalaya... but now they just have chicken noodle, pretty much the same chicken noodle offered by everyone else, the cans certainly look the same. I'm really not too disappointed to miss out on a can of chicken noodle.
...


I'm curious about your whole soup analogy here.  Given that the look of the cans have changed, in what way does this affect the soup inside?  How does the change in cover design affect the quality of the adventure itself?  Are you saying because they are now written for 4E they are not as good, or are you saying they are not as good because the writing has somehow changed for the worse to go along with the new look?

For the record I don't exactly like the new look either, but apart from the mechanical and design philosophies of 3E vs 4E I don't see the adventure quality necessarily being different.  i.e. if they were bad modules under 3E they are still going to be bad modules under 4E, and likewise if they were good modules then they are probably still good modules now regardless of the cans they come packaged in.  How are they now the same chicken noodle offered by everyone else?  The game has changed that is for sure but it is the same stable of authors writing for their Aerth campaign setting, that hasn't changed.  They are just not 1E collectible (if they ever were that) as they used to be with the old cans.  Personally I bought the old DCCs because I thought they were some really good adventures (for the most part) AND I liked the way they were presented in a very reminiscent 1E style.  Now that half that equation is different it is a good excuse to stop buying them.  Truth be told even if the look remained the same I would have chosen #52 as the cutoff and stopped there.  The market has changed since DCC first started coming out, with some smaller publishers putting out their 1E creations.  True most of it is print on demand, but that wasn't even an option before.  In 2002  Idylls of the Rat King looked very 1E, now in 2008 there are real 1E modules to purchase if you want that sort of thing.

Cheers!

  

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Post Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 4:34 pm 
 

islestrike wrote:Given that the look of the cans have changed, in what way does this affect the soup inside?

Beauty may not be skin deep, but beauty is -- at least in part -- determined by one's looks.

The production values of a module (fonts, layout, colors, art, word choice) can ignite the imagination, spark excitement, and even rekindle feelings you last had in your younger days.

It doesn't matter how technically awesome a module is if you don't get excited to read it and running it. Yes, reading it may provide all the excitement that is necessary, but for those who desire a retro feel, a retro look can be the spark that lights the fire.

Emotion is a big deal when selling product. And in the case of a product that someone looks at when using, emotion is a big deal when *using* that product.

Compare to the automotive industry: There are a wide variety of cars all with wildly different looks. Often, it doesn't matter how long of a warranty a car has, or how high of gas mileage; sometimes the appearance of the car means a lot!

  

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Post Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 4:50 pm 
 

Afraid of the Dark wrote:Beauty may not be skin deep, but beauty is -- at least in part -- determined by one's looks.

The production values of a module (fonts, layout, colors, art, word choice) can ignite the imagination, spark excitement, and even rekindle feelings you last had in your younger days.

It doesn't matter how technically awesome a module is if you don't get excited to read it and running it. Yes, reading it may provide all the excitement that is necessary, but for those who desire a retro feel, a retro look can be the spark that lights the fire.

Emotion is a big deal when selling product. And in the case of a product that someone looks at when using, emotion is a big deal when *using* that product.

Compare to the automotive industry: There are a wide variety of cars all with wildly different looks. Often, it doesn't matter how long of a warranty a car has, or how high of gas mileage; sometimes the appearance of the car means a lot!


I agree.  The look of 3E DCC modules was what had me.  Now that the look has changed (and apparantly, Otus, Roslof, Dee and Holloway are dumped) I'm just not as interested. With these guys, the appearance of their artwork triggers very, very nostalgic endorphins within my mind, and I happily go back to those carefree days of high school.  I'd say for me the old school looks were the main component of why I first started collecting DCCs.

I'll confess I'll pretty much buy ANYTHING with a Otus cover (I'd buy an Erol Otus illustrated cookbook...many, those would be some funky looking green bean casseroles!!!)  :D

Now that Goodman is putting out Cthulhu supplements, any chance of Otus getting a chance at illustrating one of those?????  

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Post Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 4:50 pm 
 

But the reverse to true, too, right? A great cover by Erol Otus is worthless is the adventure is crap. (Ala some of the offerings we've been seeing of late.)

Slapping a "1E" label on something doesn't make something inherently better or more (even if a 4E label DOES make it inherently worth less).

  
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