Dungeon Crawl Classics Questions/Opinions
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Post Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 8:18 am 
 

benjoshua wrote:O.K. Two Goodman Games Dungeon Crawl Classics updates here.

First, I placed two orders for Dungeon Crawl Classics.  The first order had a damaged module (#45: Malice of the Medusa) so I inquired and they said I could return it and get another.  O.K. :?   So that's their problem policy.  Fair enough.

Second, with my second order, I had ordered #52: Chronicle of the Fiend but it wasn't in my package.  It wasn't even listed on the invoice.  Hmmm...  I thought I ordered it.  I checked my Paypal invoice and I had ordered it.  I also noticed no Paypal refunds from Goodman Games.  I inquired.  This is the response I received:



So, for those of you still wanting #52, they are reprinting it.  It makes me wonder how many more of these titles they are reprinting. :?:   And why don't they reprint #35(even though I already own my shrink copy :))?  Heck, why don't they reprint 3.5? :o

Anyway, I thought several of you would be interested in those tidbits of information. 8)


I'm sorry to hear that they want you to return the damaged copy. Between the time, gas and shipping is it even worth returning? I'd think they'd send you a replacement. (I just was screwed over by an ebay seller like that).

I'm glad to hear about possible reprints, but I'd think #52 might be a special case. The reprints may have been under way since before the 4e announcement that they couldn't sell any of their old material, otherwise it is hard to imagine a reprint that will immediately be sold for a 50% discount. I also can't imagine them reprinting DCC#35, but not just because it is on discount. With rising prices I'm very curious to know how expensive a monster box module would cost them to produce.

  

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Post Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 8:43 am 
 

JasonZavoda wrote:I'm sorry to hear that they want you to return the damaged copy. Between the time, gas and shipping is it even worth returning? I'd think they'd send you a replacement. (I just was screwed over by an ebay seller like that).


Yeah, especially when I just bought over $350.00 worth of other stuff.  Anyway, life goes on.


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Post Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 9:04 am 
 

JasonZavoda wrote:Thought I'd add that my Goodman order arrived this afternoon. If you haven't picked up at least one DCC51  Castle Whiterock you should do it soon.

This thing is a monster. It reminds me of the old SPI detergent box games. You could easily use it as a blunt instrument, it weighs a ton.


Speaking of which, I discovered DCC51 doesn't fit in a typical magazine/module sized box(at least not with the same orientation as the rest of my DCC collection).  So, I was thinking about purchasing a Life Magazine storage box for all my box sets.  This seller offers these at this price.

http://www.bagsunlimited.com/cart/detai ... t_id=xlm60

Anyone have any experience with this seller or these kinds of boxes?  I'm getting the right storage box, right?  Anyone have a better storage solution?  I like using archival safe products.  Any advice appreciated. :)


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Post Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 12:16 pm 
 

Really?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ro8m68uVjpM

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Post Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 1:54 pm 
 



Interesting.  I actually hope he's not lying.  More 4e players means more rpg players.


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Post Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 1:54 pm 
 

Got My 1st edtion DCCs today.

I have to say I'm a bit disappointed. the Saga of the Witch Queen was damaged by the way the guys at NK packed the order. I ordered some Chessex/Gamescience dice in the little box and the box dented/tore the cover. Also because they didn't use a piece of cardboard between them the spines were a little bent... with the Witch Queen sustaining the most damage.

I sent NK a message and took photos, I hope they send me a new one.

Also, the quality of the printing on these is not so nice. It looks like a mid-quality laser print. My DCC4 is of much higher quality. They must do a short/quick run of these instead of a retail quality "proper" offset printing. I mean the interior is most definitely laser print... and the covers, albeit glossy, are probably printed in a similar way.

I'm a little bummed out  :(

Now I'm considering NOT buying any more DCCs if the printing is as unprofessional as these.

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Post Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 2:50 pm 
 

TheMilford wrote:Got My 1st edtion DCCs today.

I have to say I'm a bit disappointed. the Saga of the Witch Queen was damaged by the way the guys at NK packed the order. I ordered some Chessex/Gamescience dice in the little box and the box dented/tore the cover. Also because they didn't use a piece of cardboard between them the spines were a little bent... with the Witch Queen sustaining the most damage.

I sent NK a message and took photos, I hope they send me a new one.

Also, the quality of the printing on these is not so nice. It looks like a mid-quality laser print. My DCC4 is of much higher quality. They must do a short/quick run of these instead of a retail quality "proper" offset printing. I mean the interior is most definitely laser print... and the covers, albeit glossy, are probably printed in a similar way.

I'm a little bummed out  :(

Now I'm considering NOT buying any more DCCs if the printing is as unprofessional as these.


Haven't received my Witch Queens yet as they are on back order but my other 1e modules from NK were ridiculously well protected. Bagged, boarded as well in the case of the smaller module and swathed in a massive sheet of packing paper inside a boxed USPS priority box. The flip book printing quality looked fine to me. Clear and plaenty of dark ink used. The paper of decently thick stock and thankfully only the out cardboard folder/cover glossy.The Saga of the Rat king seemed the same. The first page illustration was especially nice.

The binding, folding, stapling is smooth, Rat King is bound so that it has a spine. Unless someone is looking for those absolutely margin illustrations that Wotc used to pad out their supplements I can't see what is missing or what would make either of these modules less than a professional, and to me, smooth looking printing.

But the real test is reading through these modules and seeing how they play.

So one thumbs down, which I don't see myself, and one thumbs up as far as looks go.

  


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Post Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 3:15 pm 
 

Maybe I'm a snob that knows too much about the actual printing process.  :oops:

I've worked in the record industry for 10 years in production and have been collecting TSR stuff since 1990 or so...

If you compare the way the ink sits "on" the paper with laser or thermal printing instead of "in" the paper like offset or "platen" printing you can see a marked difference. Even the copy of DCC4 I have is WAY better quality than the three I just received. I know this is probably because they are "short" runs compared to the regular run stuff.

Basically the color spread or "coverage" on these covers is blotchy and the color is inconsistent. The text and graphic edges are not crisp.

If these were cheaper than the normal run modules I would be cool with it. But these things are $12-18 each! For something that could have been printed at Kinkos... Sorry.

I hate to be harsh... but I had to make mention of it. It's minutia, yes, but it's tangible and I'd just like to go on record that the print process (not the art, nor the binding, nor the layout) quality is sub-par on the books I received. I just believe that only the "classic" methods such as offset and other press-style printing should be used for commercial products that are meant to be collected and used. Why do you think the original TSR stuff hold up so well? ;)

That said... Of course, if the adventures play well and the value of these go up... I will still be happy as a pig in shiznit  8)

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Post Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 3:32 pm 
 

TheMilford wrote:Maybe I'm a snob that knows too much about the actual printing process.  :oops:

I've worked in the record industry for 10 years in production and have been collecting TSR stuff since 1990 or so...

If you compare the way the ink sits "on" the paper with laser or thermal printing instead of "in" the paper like offset or "platen" printing you can see a marked difference. Even the copy of DCC4 I have is WAY better quality than the three I just received. I know this is probably because they are "short" runs compared to the regular run stuff.

Basically the color spread or "coverage" on these covers is blotchy and the color is inconsistent. The text and graphic edges are not crisp.

If these were cheaper than the normal run modules I would be cool with it. But these things are $12-18 each! For something that could have been printed at Kinkos... Sorry.

I hate to be harsh... but I had to make mention of it. It's minutia, yes, but it's tangible and I'd just like to go on record that the print process (not the art, nor the binding, nor the layout) quality is sub-par on the books I received. I just believe that only the "classic" methods such as offset and other press-style printing should be used for commercial products that are meant to be collected and used. Why do you think the original TSR stuff hold up so well? ;)

That said... Of course, if the adventures play well and the value of these go up... I will still be happy as a pig in shiznit  8)


It seems like extreme minutia. I'll go on record to say that the paper didn't rip or the ink come off my hands, and it out classes most of my early Judges Guild and TSR booklets by miles. They've held up pretty well. It is not that glossy or slick crap that WOTC/TSR used in their later days, thankfully.

It is akin to the kind of printed module like the monochromes and that is one of the things I like about it.

  


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Post Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 4:06 pm 
 

We are talking about two different things... I never said anything about print coming of the pages or the quality of the paper. It's an issue of method and ultimately the look of the final products; wet ink applied by a proper commercial-grade printing press vs. dry-static-thermal ink applied with a pro/consumer-grade laser printer. It bothers me and it's pretty obvious to anybody that collects printed materials (books, magazines, vinyl record sleeves, etc.) that's it's inferior.

And yes some of the old Judges Guild stuff was printed with a different type of method as well. Mimeograph Methinks. Which has also gone away thankfully.  :roll:

For $20, a 80-page soft-cover book should be printed on a printing press.

These DCC editions are still pretty cool and still might prove to be worth it. It's just a debate over printing quality and aesthetic. I guess my standards are different...

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Post Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 4:58 pm 
 

TheMilford wrote:We are talking about two different things... I never said anything about print coming of the pages or the quality of the paper. It's an issue of method and ultimately the look of the final products; wet ink applied by a proper commercial-grade printing press vs. dry-static-thermal ink applied with a pro/consumer-grade laser printer. It bothers me and it's pretty obvious to anybody that collects printed materials (books, magazines, vinyl record sleeves, etc.) that's it's inferior.

And yes some of the old Judges Guild stuff was printed with a different type of method as well. Mimeograph Methinks. Which has also gone away thankfully.  :roll:

For $20, a 80-page soft-cover book should be printed on a printing press.

These DCC editions are still pretty cool and still might prove to be worth it. It's just a debate over printing quality and aesthetic. I guess my standards are different...


It depends on the durability and desirability of the material, but before dismissing DCC on an aesthetic bit of minutia I'd delve into the quality of the adventure and artwork first.

At $15.99 for Rat King it seems as durable and nicely produced as any of the 3rd party material. The fact that it isn't over glossed (and my experience was that the gloss covered the absolute crap of the adventures and supplements) and is instead flat black, easy to read, ready to make notes inside (like I did with all my monochromes) is a big plus for me.

But I may hate the adventure. I do like the packaging.

  


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Post Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 5:44 pm 
 

I agree with most of your points.

I think the art-work, layout, design, look and color choices are great, It's just these three that I've received today that are indeed printed using a different method than the first DCC I bought (#4) which is of superb quality, 2nd to only the original pre-1983 TSR modules.

I hope the adventures herein are equally as good as DCC#4. For me if they are, I will let the fact that they are printed using a digital printer slide  :)

Also, I was bummed that the interior maps are not printed in that same blue as the others. The Flipbook doesn't even have any printing on the inside of the jacket.  :(  

BTW: all three have SUPER glossy covers.

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Post Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 5:50 pm 
 

TheMilford wrote:I agree with most of your points.

I think the art-work, layout, design, look and color choices are great, It's just these three that I've received today that are indeed printed using a different method than the first DCC I bought (#4) which is of superb quality, 2nd to only the original pre-1983 TSR modules.

I hope the adventures herein are equally as good as DCC#4. For me if they are, I will let the fact that they are printed using a digital printer slide  :)

Also, I was bummed that the interior maps are not printed in that same blue as the others. The Flipbook doesn't even have any printing on the inside of the jacket.  :(  

BTW: all three have SUPER glossy covers.


I don't mind glossy covers. Helps keep the stains down when I put a cup of coffee on them.

But I should make it clear that it is glossy pages and those gawd-awful margin illustrations that I can't stand. Half the supplement's I've seen produced were no more than booklets with extendo margins slapped on. flat, non-reflective pages, the glossy covers also help to blind the players if you use them as a judges shield.

  


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Post Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 6:57 pm 
 

Noble Knight shines through!

They are shipping me a replacement 1st Ed. Witch Queen!

I can send back the damaged one media mail and and they'll credit me on my next order.

:)

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Post Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 3:14 am 
 

Milford:  I understand what you are saying...the printing compared to REGULAR DCC items is substandard, on the cheap, however you want to put it.  I've heard from many sources that maps on the insides of the covers are EXPENSIVE to print, and for a one shot product like this, wouldn't be worth the expense.  Definitely has a different look than the more professionally printed DCC items.

Jason:  Your point is equally valid...compared to the old school stuff we grew up with, it's light year's better.  The glossy covers alone are a work of art; compared to the shit a lot of 3rd parties put it, it's exquisite.  And as in any case, it's the writing/content that matters anyway.  Some of the Judge's Guild stuff runs rings around the $35 hardback monstrosities put out by WOTC.

Finally, in the case of DCC, the cheap printing on these fits in with the entire "old school" format Goodman strived to emulate, so while I noticed it, it really didn't bother me.  Check out James Mischler's Castles and Crusades stuff written for the Wilderlands...ultra cheapo printing, but great content.

Too bad the "new" Goodman 4E stuff looks so....samey.  Blech.  Give me a bad printing job and an Erol Otus cover anyday.....!

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Post Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 8:05 am 
 

Noble Knight is indeed Noble. 8)


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Post Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 11:32 am 
 

Badmike wrote:I've heard from many sources that maps on the insides of the covers are EXPENSIVE to print, and for a one shot product like this, wouldn't be worth the expense.
Mike B.


Yeah, you have to print the full-color outer side on a 4-color (CMYK) Process press then pull the stock and run it through a separate time to run the Pantone color (blue) on the other side. Unless they are working with a huge printing facility that can run 5+ colors and do a spot Pantone on the reverse in the same run. Either way printing that one Pantone color on the inside is actually (usually) more expensive than doing full color on both sides. modern presses are just set up for full color as a default.

Back in the day printers charged more for 4-color process and you could save money by only printing one-color on the reverse. This is why the Monochrome modules predate the full color ones, because 4-color was newer and much more expensive at the time. That is also why some of the early stuff is printed so well, because you have one or two dedicated ink colors for each color on the cover, compared to mixing your colors from cyan, magenta, yellow and black.

Just a quick question. How's the print quality on Castle Whiterock? I'm using DCC#4 and these 1st eds. I just got as my benchmarks.

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Post Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 2:52 pm 
 

Ok... I'm back on the wagon. I just ordered the two $20 boxed sets from NK, using my small credit... then they can ship me my replacement in the same order. I figured this is a good way to get a few more of the modules in one shot cheaply.

I'm selling off a guitar I don't use and hopefully can make an order for some of Goodman's 1/2-priced sale this week or next... I'm thinking Whiterock Castle, Devil Lich and Cage of Delirium.

Now I just need to figure out ways to hide this stuff from the wife.  :wink:

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Post Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 3:43 pm 
 

I'm pretty certain that Goodman does all the short run adventures through POD service. Whereas their larger, regular run adventures use traditional methods. The barrier must be the number they anticipate selling. [/i]

  

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Post Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 9:22 am 
 

Seems like WOTC has really boned Goodman Games with this 4e business. From what I have read and argued about on their site they are stuck with not only changing the content to 4e but have to give up the 1e style of their covers. I can't imagine the loss in revenue they are taking by liquadating their old line at wholesale (or is it less than wholesale prices).

Will they have to reduce prices further or just pulp their remaining stock once the 4e switchover date hits? Their only hope seems to be that 4e will be a tremendous success and they will be able to salvage all the work they've done by converting the old material into 4e, but all that design and artwork, all the hours put into redesign, that has got to hurt, and having to dump their physical inventory is an insane requirement. Is WOTC trying to drive the name 3rd party companies out of business?

Anyway it seems that there is no hope for a return to 1e style and flavor with the DCC line. An earlie thread is that this is a try for 2e style, but the new DCC looks just like any other modern covers to me.

  
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