Bad News About the Castle Zagyg Project
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Post Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 1:57 pm 
 

I will definitely fart in its general direction.
If the people who bought it are displeased, it makes no difference whatsoever whether or not TLG did what they consider the right thing(s) or not. The customer is 100% right, since it is their money the company wants. If people are bitching about the spurious releases, then their gripe is certainly legit. When you run a business, you do what the majority of the customers want if you want to succeed.


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Post Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 10:06 pm 
 

[Multiple replies piled into one message.]

Deimos, I believe it's going to be different.  And you should give them the benefit of the doubt.

Your opinion of the motives of the company is being presented as fact when it is nothing but opinion.  Therefore, I will in fact dampen criticism, especially when it's misrepresented as factual.  The only fact other than the fact that three books for the setting have been released is that no one is forcing you to buy anything.

FormCritic, Zagyg is what it is.  For me, it's a "take it or leave it" proposition.  I honestly believe that some of the vaunted history will be lost, especially with Rob Kuntz no longer working on the project.  I feel the same way about Yggsburgh, and haven't purchased Yggsburgh simply because I don't need it.

Deadlord, the majority want the additional books.  As mentioned before, the only complaints regarding the multiple book releases have been on this forum.



  


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Post Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 1:43 pm 
 

FormCritic wrote:But what I (me, myself) and probably most other fans of the setting want is Castle Zagyg.

Can't repeat this enough...Castle...........Zagyg.

C A S T L E  Z A G Y G


Quoted for truth.

  


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Post Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 12:25 pm 
 

Traveller wrote:Deimos, I believe it's going to be different.  And you should give them the benefit of the doubt.
Well, you're entitled to that opinion.  I disagree, for the reasons outlined below, but would be interested in hearing why you think it will be different.  What's so special about TLG?

Your opinion of the motives of the company is being presented as fact when it is nothing but opinion.  Therefore, I will in fact dampen criticism, especially when it's misrepresented as factual.

That's incorrect.  I didn't state anything about their motives, as I'm under no illusions regarding their motives.  As you seem to have failed your saving throw, let's be clear.  Like every other company on the planet, they'd like to make a thing called "profit".  I don't have a problem with that, but don't even try to suggest they're releasing products to save the world or something. :roll:

What I said was that their production strategy is a poor one assuming the end-goal of releasing a quality line of products.  Given limited resources, quality and quantity are inversely proportional.  That's not opinion, that's a solid economic fact which applies to everyone, everywhere.

Twenty-four pre-planned supplemental products does not scream an emphasis on quality to me.  Does TLG have enough resources to produce such a large line without quality suffering?  Perhaps they do, but I don't think so.  Larger corporations with far more resources have tried and failed miserably.  If they feel their production strategy is economically feasible with twenty-four products, they will probably be reluctant to throw those presumed sales away, even at the expense of quality.  If they felt otherwise, they wouldn't have planned that many in the first place.

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Post Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 12:43 pm 
 

First, and repeated, again:

TLG does not own CZ.

They are not responsible for it, or its contents, excluding what has been agreed upon with the actual owner, Trigee. These things include publication, distribution, layout, art, editing, and the like... but it does not mean TLG is accountable for what the content is, nor are they directly involved with "quality" except for physical quality, like binding and pages, and that sort of thing.

Second:

TLG does care about the customer, but they will only do what is brought to their attention. Both factions involved with this product post on the TLG boards. I suggest you do the same.


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Post Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 4:22 pm 
 

Don't take it personally, seleran.   8)

This is just a bit of spouting off...because a number of us care about the project.

I know you have had a hand in one of the upcoming publications.  Which one is it?

I have communicated with the TLG personnel...referred them to my earlier review, in fact.

Mark


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Post Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 4:59 pm 
 

I know you have had a hand in one of the upcoming publications.  Which one is it?


Almost all of them, in a minor way, and some more directly.

But, please, don't think I am taking this personally... I was simply trying to end any misinformation (which can lead to misunderstanding, before it gets to the point where fact and fiction are intertwined beyond repair.) I do find it better to go to the source of the issue than to discuss it where they would not see it, and, so, thanks for bringing it to the Trolls' attention.

Sorry if I came across differently... I can be brash and, umm, rude at times.


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Post Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 2:13 pm 
 

The silly part about this is that we're all here because we're passionate about Castle Zagyg.

Pissed at the release schedule? 'cause we want to love CZ.
Pissed at those who are pissed at the release schedule? 'cause we want to love CZ.

We all want the same damn thing: to see an awesome CZ in print as soon as possible.

Serleran, being in involved in all the projects, can you speak to the reasoning behind the release schedule at all?

  

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Post Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 5:38 pm 
 

There were problems getting designers, at first, through Gary's open call (lots of people submitted but some fell out and needed replacement, and whatnot, or were just not accepted because of whatever reason - I did not go through this process myself) which causes delays, and then there were some minor problems with discrepancies in descriptions which meant maps needed to be redrawn, or modified, or the author had to rewrite material and the like. There were other issues as well, such as an editor bowing out to work on other things (workloads became excessive for some involved, like myself who needed to work on other TLG materials.) The RJK decision did not impact CZ: Y as far as I can tell, but it had a major impact on the Castle project. So, these culminated in a staggered approach... those turned in first would go out first, as they'd had plenty of time for editing, insurance, and whatever, but the goal was never (as I know it) to release them all at once -- that's just too much product at one time and sales would likely suffer (people don't always like being overwhelmed with product.)

So, basically, like any massive undertaking, several little glitches became a giant crack that has caused the project to slowly trickle out... but, it is happening.


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Post Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 12:33 pm 
 

Managing designers, even if nobody flakes out and everyone turns in their material on time, is a HUGE undertaking. Getting writing styles to coordinate and not read like 30 different writers is more of a challenge that some folks think.

Of course, the response to this is to schedule your team enough time to do a thorough development read before the deadline, but that is neither here nor there (and is a luxury most RPG publishers, outside of Wizards, often can't afford).

(Not that this excuses missing deadlines --- I'm just recognizing that there can be many hurdles getting there.)

Regardless, if and when CZ makes it to print, I pray it is high quality. Better no CZ than one that is horribly flawed. That's not the legacy that Gygax deserves to leave.  

What was "Kuntz's decision" ? I'm not in the loop.

  

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Post Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 1:33 pm 
 

goatboy wrote:What was "Kuntz's decision" ? I'm not in the loop.


Rob decided to leave the Zagyg project and create Pied Piper Publishing.


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Post Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 4:01 pm 
 

All this talk about this project has me excited to get it :)


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Post Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 9:33 pm 
 

FormCritic wrote:Rob decided to leave the Zagyg project and create Pied Piper Publishing.


Slight correction:  Rob had already formed PPP and published CotSK (at least), when he left the CZ project.  (I think the timing's right on that, would have to double-check if anyone's particularly interested in exact dates :D ).


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Post Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 11:42 am 
 

FC,

Thank you. I didn't know that.

Wow. What a loss. To have had CZ rendered by BOTH original designers would have been incredible.

Ser,

It's my understanding that both The Land Beyond the Magic Mirror and Dungeonland were originally tied into Castle Greyhawk as interludes to the standard dungeon crawling fare.

Is there a chance that CZ will include portals/references to these classics (insofar as it is legally permissable)?

  

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Post Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 11:49 am 
 

I cannot divulge specific contents, but from previously publically available ad copies detailing what one could expect of the levels, the deepest ones have portals to all sorts of places.


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Post Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 11:53 am 
 

grodog wrote:Slight correction:  Rob had already formed PPP and published CotSK (at least), when he left the CZ project.  (I think the timing's right on that, would have to double-check if anyone's particularly interested in exact dates :D ).

correct on that am sure

  


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Post Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:01 pm 
 

serleran wrote:... the deepest ones have portals to all sorts of places.


Sweet. Thank you. :)

  


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Post Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 11:30 pm 
 

goatboy wrote:It's my understanding that both The Land Beyond the Magic Mirror and Dungeonland were originally tied into Castle Greyhawk as interludes to the standard dungeon crawling fare.

Is there a chance that CZ will include portals/references to these classics (insofar as it is legally permissable)?


Even if it doesn't, some of us are working to discover and share this info so that it'll be usable by generations of future GH fans :D  See http://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/gh_castle.html

serleran wrote:I cannot divulge specific contents, but from previously publically available ad copies detailing what one could expect of the levels, the deepest ones have portals to all sorts of places.


The originals included many gates to worlds from myth and fiction, including:  Melnibone, Lankhmar, Oz, Barsoom, Asgard, Dying Earth, Wonderland, King Kong's isle (WG6), and many others.


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Post Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 12:23 pm 
 

Gro,

The maps you have posted are great.

Where were those drawn from? What are the sources? (I guess what I'm asking is, are those maps reconstructions derived from various texts, or originals from the EGG/Kuntz games?   8O)

Regardless, thanks for carrying the torch.

  


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Post Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 8:15 pm 
 

goatboy wrote:The maps you have posted are great.


Thanks, if you mean the ones @ http://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/gh ... rodog.html ?  Thanks for the compliment, but apparently some of more-recent/better-quality scans (color vs. the b&w grainy ones scanned on a photocopier) are not linked to properly or the page has reverted to an earlier version or something.  Grrr.  I need a new host, I think, before I start to update the page again in earnest....  (And none of my maps are nearly as complicated as EGG's and RJK's originals, either!).  

goatboy wrote:Where were those drawn from? What are the sources? (I guess what I'm asking is, are those maps reconstructions derived from various texts, or originals from the EGG/Kuntz games?   8O)


I drew the maps on the "grodog's Version of Castle Greyhawk" page (empahsis on me there ;) ), and they're merely my version of the Castle, without being based architecturally on the works of EGG or RJK (as I didn't have access to those back in the early 1980s when I began to build my own CG).  I haven't found sufficient information/descriptions/etc. in the various Soapbox and other stories from EGG and RJK to model a castle map from those original descriptions (and I only have 6 of the at least 75+ original CG dungeon levels, and nothing from the ruins).  Yet.  But eventually, I'd like to do so, or at least to create a way to reconcile the good bits from WGR4, WG7 (an evil alternate demiplane within the castle, no doubt), Castle Zagyg, and Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk, along with RJK's levels like Bottle City, The Living Room, etc.  Likely I still won't be able to recreate the original maps in much detail without having the original materials to work from, alas....

goatboy wrote:Regardless, thanks for carrying the torch.


It's my pleasure, and you're welcome!


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