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Post Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 5:29 pm 
 

Anyway, just curious, has anyone else dealt with this sort of rabid resistance to C&C among fanatic 3rd editioners????


Do not ever go to ENWorld. Ever. If you do not want to see such rabid fanaticism... avoid it. But, yeah, I have seen such things. I don't understand it. I just like to game. Sometimes, I want "more" but having something so easy to modify makes that "more" so much easier to accomplish.


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Post Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 5:45 pm 
 

serleran wrote:
Do not ever go to ENWorld. Ever. If you do not want to see such rabid fanaticism... avoid it. But, yeah, I have seen such things. I don't understand it. I just like to game. Sometimes, I want "more" but having something so easy to modify makes that "more" so much easier to accomplish.


I went to Enworld once.  I was reminded of the time my friends and I went to a lesbian gay bar when I was in college, on a lark.  I've never felt more unwanted or unneeded or had less in common with any group of people ever...the hatred was so palpalable it creeped us out..so we left right after we had a quick drink (we felt sorry for the bartender because everyone left the bar area after we sat there....).  I felt EXACTLY the same way at Enworld....!

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Post Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 5:57 pm 
 

Badmike wrote:
A funny and sad story:

My FLGS owner, a friend of many years, and normally a pretty good guy, absolutely detests C&C and won't carry ANY of the products.

Quote:  "If they want to release a 3rd edition supplement, fine.  If they want to release a 1st edition supplement, fine, but don't call it "Castles and Crusades" and take away everything that makes 3rd edition great."

Then the rant goes on how C&C can't possibly work because the entire 3rd edition game system is based on feats, character kits, monsters having classes/abilities and being half-dragon/mindflayer/black pudding, etc.  Needless to say, he's a 3rd edition true believer of the highest order (he's furious with me because I haven't switched these last years; keeps telling me "Someday you'll have to, you're playing a dying game, pretty soon you won't be able to find any players, etc; for my part I keep styming him by playing and playing and playing....!)

Honestly, I really got interested in C&C just to run a game someday, or maybe even a campaign, just to rub his nose in it....I don't plan on using ANY of the upgrades, supplements, or extra rules except what is in the core rulebooks...just to drive him even more insane!  :twisted:

He is a good guy, but just cannot wrap his mind around the fact players would want LESS to their game instead of MORE (he thinks that anyone who has left 3rd Ed to return to 1st or 2nd edition is, to put it mildly, mentally retarded.)

Anyway, just curious, has anyone else dealt with this sort of rabid resistance to C&C among fanatic 3rd editioners????

Mike B.


I can't speak from personal experience since I don't know any 3E players.  The only ones I've encountered are the handful here on this forum.  

But when folks start having virulent reactions of this ilk, it usually means they perceive a real threat.  Maybe C&C is making enough of a splash to have the 3E community worried.

And while it may be a stretch to say that TLG will win out over WoTC, it's not without precedent that a big guy can get clobbered by an upstart.  All you have to do is "Google" something to see such results.

Keith


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Post Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 5:58 pm 
 

serleran wrote:
Heh, thanks. And, some say the Fleshcrawler is the carrion crawler "replacement," but I cannot confirm or deny such things... only say "its there, read it how you want." :)

I really like it when people mention them... makes me feel like I did something right.


Fleshcrawler is a great name.  Downright creepy.  Me likes it.


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Post Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 11:42 pm 
 

Badmike wrote:Anyway, just curious, has anyone else dealt with this sort of rabid resistance to C&C among fanatic 3rd editioners????


In fairness, I don't think any edition has a monopoly on fanatics. We're just fantatics that can type full sentences. :)

  


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Post Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 11:53 pm 
 

Keith the Thief wrote:
Fleshcrawler is a great name.  Downright creepy.  Me likes it.


It's also more accurate, considering that Carrion Crawlers actually eat living flesh rather than corpses...

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Post Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 12:49 pm 
 

jamesmishler wrote:
Yggsburg does not contain anything about the Castle itself. It is a complete setting, consisting of Yggsburgh and the East Mark.

One you get the Upper Works, you can just run it as is. If you already have a campaign setting, place it wherever you want to. If you do not, you can use Yggsburgh and the East Mark as the setting, as the Castle and its dungeons are going to require a LONG series of adventures, and the characters will want to get more equipment, reinforcements, materials, and debauchery in between delves.

Essentially, if you already have a setting, you don't need Yggsburgh. But it is pretty cool, and as it is a small area (~30 miles NS by 50 miles EW) it can be easily dropped into just about any classic European-style Medieval/Renaissance setting...

Oh, and Dark Chateau is a prequel to the Castle. It was the home of Archmage Zagyg before he moved into the castle. It will give you a taste of what is in store... but you do not need to run it before you run Upper Works.


Hi guys,

Long time lurker, first time poster.

I'm the designer helping Gary produce Castle Zagyg. Just thought I'd pop in to say hello, and to mention that what James says above is spot-on. I'll be at Gen Con promoting the folio of the East Mark Gazetteer:

http://www.trolllord.com/newsite/zagyg/8059.html

All the best,
--Jeff T.



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Post Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 4:57 pm 
 

Hey Jeff!

We love you guys!

Please read the comments above about the maps!


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Post Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 6:04 pm 
 

FWIW, if you last visited ENWorld two or three years ago (or longer), I think you'll find it a different place now:  OD&D and AD&D are regular topics of discussion there, and they're quite welcome.  Discussions about AD&D and OD&D, OSRIC and C&C, and other classic or retro systems, adventures, and settings are quite common now (including, ironically, 3.0 sometimes :D ).  Depending on the week, there may be more discussion of Greyhawk (and I don't mean LG either) on ENWorld than there is on DF, for example.

Back in the Edition Wars days, there may have been more animosity toward older systems on ENWorld, but with 4.x looming on the horizon, and the level of change and expense introduced by WotC with 3.5, I think that the ENWorld fanbase has mellowed considerably.


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Post Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 11:12 pm 
 

Ghul wrote:I'm the designer helping Gary produce Castle Zagyg


Ye gods. How cool is that? Damn.

  


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Post Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 11:17 pm 
 

Ghul wrote:
Hi guys,

Long time lurker, first time poster.

I'm the designer helping Gary produce Castle Zagyg. Just thought I'd pop in to say hello, and to mention that what James says above is spot-on. I'll be at Gen Con promoting the folio of the East Mark Gazetteer:
[/i]


Welcome, Ghul!

Question. How much material (if any) will remain exclusive to the upcoming East Mark Gazetteer once the Upper Works is published? I.e., material not in Yggsburgh or the Upper Works.

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Post Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 11:22 pm 
 

Ye gods. How cool is that? Damn.


Jeff earned it during the Yggsburgh Project work. Talented designer, and incredible with maps (the one I saw at LGGC a year back when I met him was astonishing.) Gary's good at seeing talent when its there... I'm very glad to have been allowed to be "special consultant" much less see the awesomeness that is Ghul' work.

But, yeah... working with Gary is interesting. :)


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Post Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 7:20 am 
 

zhowar wrote:
Welcome, Ghul!

Question. How much material (if any) will remain exclusive to the upcoming East Mark Gazetteer once the Upper Works is published? I.e., material not in Yggsburgh or the Upper Works.


Hello,

Thanks for the kind welcome to the forums here, fellows. I'm just a lifelong, die-hard gamer who got a lucky break! :)

A: Enough to make it worthwhile (IMO), particularly if you are a collector of curiosities, or if you desire to get your Caste Zagyg campaign running straight away.

The differences are this:

* new maps of the East Mark area. There will be a beautifully rendered one by Peter Bradley that shows the East Mark, much in the same way that the Darlene map did, but without the encounter numbers to ruin it. (I love Darlene's work, but my biggest complaint with the original map was the ability to show it to your players while gaming.)

* new material on the East Mark. Racial distributions, lunar calendar, languages, farmland production, trees of the East Mark, a chronological timeline, and other new features that will enhance your Yggsburgh campaign. Keep in mind that the East Mark area covers an area of 1,500 miles and so can be dropped into most other campaign settings.


The module inside, Mouths of Madness, is indeed also the first module that will be in the upcoming boxed set, The Upper Works. It has, however, been slightly modified so as to stand on its own until the boxed set is released. Meaning, you don't have to wait to get your Castle Zagyg game running, once you're armed with the folio.

Hope that helps,
--Jeff T.

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Post Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 7:26 am 
 

serleran wrote:
Jeff earned it during the Yggsburgh Project work. Talented designer, and incredible with maps (the one I saw at LGGC a year back when I met him was astonishing.) Gary's good at seeing talent when its there... I'm very glad to have been allowed to be "special consultant" much less see the awesomeness that is Ghul' work.

But, yeah... working with Gary is interesting. :)


:)

Robert's being modest. Before this thing is through, his stamp will be undeniable, as his previous monster work is being utilized and he will be called upon many times throughout the process to help in new monster design. He is the monster man!  But can he do the monster mash, is the question.

Cheers!
--Jeff T.

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Post Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 10:03 am 
 

Ghul wrote:
Hi guys,

Long time lurker, first time poster.

I'm the designer helping Gary produce Castle Zagyg. Just thought I'd pop in to say hello, and to mention that what James says above is spot-on. I'll be at Gen Con promoting the folio of the East Mark Gazetteer:

http://www.trolllord.com/newsite/zagyg/8059.html

All the best,
--Jeff T.



[/i]


Jeff,

Welcome to the Acaeum.

Two-three months ago I knew nothing about C&C and TLG.  And to think you guys were out there developing a great game system and the long-sought CZ dungeon.

Although my experience with C&C is limited at present, that will change soon as I'm expecting the PHB and M&T in the mail probably today.  So I'm really looking forward to delving into your products.

Please keep us up-to-speed on your progress.

Keith


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Post Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 10:20 am 
 

This thread has prompted me to go back and look at the whole Castle Zagyg line again.  I remember I gave up on the whole thing when after proceeding at a snails pace for awhile the first thing to be released was Yggsburgh ...another campaign environs setting with no donjon.    :?   Based on that it was looking like it would be 5 years before we got to the actual dungeon part of it.  It looks like it's all starting to come together now though.  :)


Can someone tell me if this material is being cooked up on the spot, or is it being based on some previous material that Gygax ran back in the day?  Is this like Castle Greyhawk with a new name, or is that something else completely?  Much obliged.

Cheers!

  

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Post Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 4:17 pm 
 

Hey, Ghul and Serleran:

  I'm interested in how much the chatter on a website like this one, combined with places like Dragonsfoot and ENWorld, influences design decisions.

   Does it?

   Ghul, I noticed that you voiced the same frustration with the Darlene map as I voiced in my review.  1)  Have you read my Yggsburgh review?  2)  Do you have the same frustration as me about the color map of Yggsburgh itself?

Mark


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Post Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 4:38 pm 
 

Badmike wrote:
My best ever Dragon attack was:  



Hey, Mike!

I missed this post somehow the first time around.

In addition to the three steps for slaying a dragon...

1)  Be immune to the breath weapon.
2)  Close to sword range.
3)  Slay

....there is also the basic tactical rule:

4)  Stay somewhat separated, but never more than one easy move from each other.

   As soon as I started reading about the mages flying up to meet the dragon in the air, I knew bad things were in store for the adventuring party.

5)  Never fly to meet the dragon.  Stay together on the ground and use projectiles.

6)  If the dragon refuses to land, allow him to stay aloft, have a good chuckle and move to loot his treasure horde.  He'll come down.

   Of course, a clever DM will have some sort of hazard guarding the horde...which is why you stay together while you do it.  Sooner or later the dragon must close...then apply Step 3 as necessary.  If the dragon has no horde nearby, steps 1-5 still apply.

    In 3.5 the dragon might even win the ensuing melee...since the rules allow for the dragon's incredible strength and striking power....rather than in AD&D, where an ancient huge white dragon might get in a claw hit for d4 (same as a dagger) or a bite equivalent to an average human holding a bastard sword.  *Insert derisive chicken noises here*

"Ha! Max damage! That's four to you, Sir Robilar...just under 4% of your total hit points!  Only twenty more rounds of that and I shall have you somewhat slightly concerned, perhaps!"

  However, for your amusement....an example of famous last words.  These were spoken on the 3rd level of G3 Hall of the Fire Giant King :

  "All of the dragons are always assleep in your campaign, Mark."  :lol:


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Post Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 5:48 pm 
 

Hola Robert---

Based on the GenCon products thread @ ENWorld, it looks like your Dungeon Engineering book won't be available at the show:  do you know anything definite one way or the other?


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Post Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 6:32 pm 
 

mark: in all the years i have DMd i have had a party beat an ancient dragon yet.

Al



  
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