DunDraCon items - quality of images/paper?
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Post Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 3:47 pm 
 

Per Ian's post @ viewtopic.php?t=5615 and Mars' post @ viewtopic.php?t=5824 I picked up both of sets recently.

I wanted to get some input from folks on the quality of the interior pages, both the paper and the images/content.  I'm asking because my City Modules geos set included two of the same page (so I'm apparently missing one and have two of another one), and they look and feel more like copies than I was expecting (the pages are standard weight paper rather than cardstock (which the Magic Item cards were, btw), and some of the terrain in the geos appears to be slightly smudged/too big/etc.,  which often happens with photocopies.  

Reference:  http://www.afterglow2.com/Product/Dundracon.htm

I can post some scans of the relevant areas, but not for a few days.  I thought perhaps that the paper quality would be the deciding factor, but can certainly scan if folks need to see the places I'm talking about.

edit:  I'm not trying to imply any wrongdoing by Aaron or his staff, I just don't know what to expect from these products, and thought some input would be worthwhile.


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Post Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 2:52 am 
 

I am concerned that KNG managed to secure at least 12 copies of City Modules 1, an apparent DunDraCon rare, and then found another dozen copies. Someone is photocopying them somewhere and supplying the market.

And KNG's Compleat Tavern is a fake and Aaron is aware of the issue. Doesn't Tadashi have an issue with fake Gamelords products being sold by KNG?


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Post Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 9:42 am 
 

mbassoc2003 wrote:I am concerned that KNG managed to secure at least 12 copies of City Modules 1, an apparent DunDraCon rare, and then found another dozen copies. Someone is photocopying them somewhere and supplying the market.

And KNG's Compleat Tavern is a fake and Aaron is aware of the issue. Doesn't Tadashi have an issue with fake Gamelords products being sold by KNG?


I bought recent copies of both DunDracon items from NKG.  I have no  doubt, basing this on my extensive experience in the hobby and collecting for 30+ years, that the City Modules are photocopies and NOT the originals.  I have nothing to go on but my experience.  I base this on the following:

1. I also bought a set of Artifact cards with the City Modules.  The SMELL of the two items is pronouncedly different. The Artifact cards have that funky, musty smell of many aged papers I have in storage.  The City Modules? Not at all.  They smell like any set of copying paper that came straight from my stack at home.

2.  The feel of the City Modules is all wrong. I own nothing from this era of gaming (1978) that is on such thin, standard weight paper.  The look is very slightly washed out (as if from a generation removed from the original copy).

3. Per the Afterglow reference, the instruction sheet is double sided, and 10 sheets.  Heroic Worlds lists the product as having 9 sheets, no mention of the instruction sheet. My copy is 10 pages total including the single sided instruction sheet, so I'd be interested in knowing which reference is correct.

The feel, and look, of the City Modules is all wrong (the artifact cards don't have this issue, IMO).  To make matters worse, the new, mint looking pages are in a very old, dirty, vintage era plastic bag....an issue which is suspicious in itself, as the pages are mint, white and unmarked by time!  

I would urge any collectors NOT to purchase these items from NKG games as the circumstances are quite fishy, unless you want to spend $20 or so on an apparant photocopy of a rare item.  I concur with MBassoc's opinion on this issue.  When I get time I'm going to try to have this sent back for a refund; if anyone is interested, they can have them for half my purchase price ($10) plus shipping if they wish to do some sort of research on this issue, but with the warning that I don't think these are legit.

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Post Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 11:56 am 
 

mbassoc2003 wrote:And KNG's Compleat Tavern is a fake and Aaron is aware of the issue. Doesn't Tadashi have an issue with fake Gamelords products being sold by KNG?


I talked with Aaron about this a little while back and he agreed that the picture was of a fake but he didn't have a chance to change it.  He pulled the item from his warehouse to check if what he had was a fake or not and the actual item he had was legit - I ended up buying it (it was a first print).  I don't see the item for sale in his store now so I don't know if he has changed the picture yet or not.  If there is any doubt you can email him and ask about it.

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Post Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 12:46 pm 
 

My initial reaction to the City Modules was that they were fakes as well but after talking with Bombadil about them I think they are legit.



A couple of months ago, there was an ebay auction for City Modules and Referee Map modules:



http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 0103485288



This auction:

(i) was before NK had any of the items for sale,

(ii) did not include the Artifact Cards,

(iii) NK did not get any Referee Map Modules sets

so I believe these items are an independent source from where NK got their copies from.



Bombadil won this auction and also purchased the NK set.  He was nice enough to send me a set from NK too - thanks!  I asked him about City Modules when he sent me a set of them because I had photocopy concerns at the time as well.  He said that they matched up with what he had won.  So either they are legit or the items came from the same source.



I picked up a Referee Map Modules set last year that I am certain is legit and it matches the one in the auction so I have no doubts the Referee Map Modules in the auction are legit.  I then seems strange that City is a copy but Referee is legit.  The ziplock bag from my completely different auction and the NK City matches exactly as well.



On the question of number of sheets, my NK copy has 9 different map sheets and a single sided cover sheet.  I'm not sure where Ian got the "double sided instruction sheet" from for this one (maybe since Referee does have such a sheet).  Also, Heroic Worlds states that it should be 8 pages.  It seems like a lot of trouble for someone faking the product to go and create a new map sheet in the same style as well so I don't think HW is correct.



Or possibly HW doesn't have the complete printing history.  There may have been an earlier version with 8 pages.  Their are 2 versions of the Artifact Cards but HW only lists one.  The other version comes with a blue cover sheet and has 5 uncut card pages (same number of actual cards).



For the cover sheet, I can believe it is only one sided.  The bottom ends with the "May your monster never grow less!" and ends with a signature so again unless it has been cut and pasted and modified then I think this is what it should be.



To try and account for the difference in paper quality, they were done at different times by different authors and even use different fonts for certain parts such as "Set no. 1" (between the Referee and City modules) so I think all of this is possible.



To recap, I think my strongest feeling comes from the auction above.  An independent source of the product that matches the NK version.

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Post Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 1:09 pm 
 

Mars wrote:My initial reaction to the City Modules was that they were fakes as well but after talking with Bombadil about them I think they are legit.

A couple of months ago, there was an ebay auction for City Modules and Referee Map modules:


** expired eBay auction **


This auction:
(i) was before NK had any of the items for sale,
(ii) did not include the Artifact Cards,
(iii) NK did not get any Referee Map Modules sets
so I believe these items are an independent source from where NK got their copies from.

Bombadil won this auction and also purchased the NK set.  He was nice enough to send me a set from NK too - thanks!  I asked him about City Modules when he sent me a set of them because I had photocopy concerns at the time as well.  He said that they matched up with what he had won.  So either they are legit or the items came from the same source.

I picked up a Referee Map Modules set last year that I am certain is legit and it matches the one in the auction so I have no doubts the Referee Map Modules in the auction are legit.  I then seems strange that City is a copy but Referee is legit.  The ziplock bag from my completely different auction and the NK City matches exactly as well.

On the question of number of sheets, my NK copy has 9 different map sheets and a single sided cover sheet.  I'm not sure where Ian got the "double sided instruction sheet" from for this one (maybe since Referee does have such a sheet).  Also, Heroic Worlds states that it should be 8 pages.  It seems like a lot of trouble for someone faking the product to go and create a new map sheet in the same style as well so I don't think HW is correct.

Or possibly HW doesn't have the complete printing history.  There may have been an earlier version with 8 pages.  Their are 2 versions of the Artifact Cards but HW only lists one.  The other version comes with a blue cover sheet and has 5 uncut card pages (same number of actual cards).

For the cover sheet, I can believe it is only one sided.  The bottom ends with the "May your monster never grow less!" and ends with a signature so again unless it has been cut and pasted and modified then I think this is what it should be.

To try and account for the difference in paper quality, they were done at different times by different authors and even use different fonts for certain parts such as "Set no. 1" (between the Referee and City modules) so I think all of this is possible.

To recap, I think my strongest feeling comes from the auction above.  An independent source of the product that matches the NK version.




Interesting points, Mars. I suppose the only good way to prove they were originals would be to find someone that purchased these back in the day....i.e., 1978-1980 or so....and describe their product.  I just don't like the look of the items...if it's not a recent photocopy, then it's an old photocopy...these items were NOT printed, they were photocopied.  Now a lot of the older items, after the first print the sheets were just Photocopied (POTVQ comes to mind) for subsequent prints, maybe that's the case here. In an event, IMO these should not be a sought after or collectible item...obviously, there are quite a bit more than anyone thought, and they can be counterfeited so incredibly easy if someone wanted to, a copy would be absolutely undetectable from earlier copies if what Mars and Bom are saying is accurate.  

  I'm going to hang onto my copy for awhile, because now I'm intrigued, and try to find as an original set as I can to compare the copies and see if I can come up with something.  



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Post Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 3:30 pm 
 

I sent an email to the seller of the auction in my previous message to see if I can find out where he picked them up from.  As far as a collectible goes, there is a fair amount of supply out there for the City Modules so I don'tthink it will be a pricey item anymore.  The weight of the paper for the City Modules is pretty close to the Referee Modules as well.  I think photocopying was a practice used by a few small companies as well.  Some of my Ragnarok Enterprises items definitely have the same photocopied feel (even some that have colour cardstock covers).

Ideally, it would be good if someone has a copy obtained from a previous time period / independent source.  Afterglow2 does have an image up and I don't think Ian has done too many updates in the last while so I think it predates the NK copies.  Maybe Ian can share whose copy that is?

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Post Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 3:42 pm 
 

I got the following emails from Aaron about this, haven't had a chance to update the thread yet, though:

Noble Knight and grodog wrote:---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Noble Knight Games <[email protected]>
Date: Jul 1, 2007 7:40 PM
Subject: RE: Noble Knight Games - Order #765-10562055288 Has Shipped
To: Allan Grohe <[email protected]>


Hi Allan,

I can't remember, is there any page count or something that would help me to figure out what page you are missing?

I've sold dozens of these and haven't heard anything so it might be the way its supposed to be, or just a problem within your module alone. At any rate if we can verify that I'll get you what your missing if indeed your missing something.

Oh, I know the guy that is selling these to me.  He has a barn full of old
gaming stuff (you should have seen the layers of dust on these we cleaned off), hes been in the industry as a wargamer, publisher and game store owner for decades.  Don't worry, they are legit as legit can get.

Best Regards,
Aaron Leeder

Noble Knight Games
"Where the Out-of-Print is Available Again"
http://www.nobleknight.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Allan Grohe [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2007 9:45 PM
To: Noble Knight Games
Subject: Re: Noble Knight Games - Order #765-10562055288 Has Shipped


Hi Aaron---

It looks like my City Modules geos set included two copies of the same
page (so I think I'm missing one and have two of another one, if Ian's
count of 10 pages on http://www.afterglow2.com/Product/Dundracon.htm
is correct).  Can you please check your other stock to see if they
have the same issue?

Also, do you know any more details about the set's origin?  I ask
because the paper stock for the City Module feels like standard paper
vs. the cardstock I was expecting (which the DunDraCon Magic Item
cards were; I don't own a Referee Map Modules Set No.1 by Clint
Bigglestone to compare to [at least I don't think so, I'll dig around
tomorrow]).  Also, I noticed that some of the terrain in the geos
appears to be slightly smudged/bleeds into itself---it is possible
that you were sold photocopies of these???

If you have some time to do some research, I'd appreciate it :D

Thanks!

Allan.
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and also


Noble Knight and grodog wrote:---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Noble Knight Games <[email protected]>
Date: Jul 1, 2007 8:15 PM
Subject: RE: Noble Knight Games - Order #765-10562055288 Has Shipped
To: Allan Grohe <[email protected]>

Hi Allan

Ok, let me know what you find out.  I'm going to be looking at some copies soon too.

When he gets ambition and digs out a few boxes he sends them my way...who knows what he'll find!  So far nothing crazy, this has been the most popular item I think I've ever gotten from him.

Best Regards,
Aaron Leeder

Noble Knight Games
"Where the Out-of-Print is Available Again"
http://www.nobleknight.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Allan Grohe [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2007 8:12 PM
To: Noble Knight Games
Subject: Re: Noble Knight Games - Order #765-10562055288 Has Shipped


Hi Aaron---

On 7/1/07, Noble Knight Games <[email protected]> wrote:
> I can't remember, is there any page count or something that would help > me to figure out what page you are missing?

There are 10 pages, per Ian Montgomery's afterglow2.com site @
http://www.afterglow2.com/Product/Dundracon.htm  I'll email Ian
directly to see if he has a scan so I can figure out which page is
missing.

> Oh, I know the guy that is selling these to me.  He has a barn full of old
> gaming stuff (you should have seen the layers of dust on these we
> cleaned off), hes been in the industry as a wargamer, publisher and
> game store owner for decades.  Don't worry, they are legit as legit can
> get.

That's good to hear :D  Did he have any other goodies in the barn that
you'll be listing soon? :D

Allan.
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http://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/greyhawk.html for my Greyhawk site


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Post Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 4:13 pm 
 

What, no email address or phone number for the guy?   :D


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Post Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 5:31 pm 
 

Oh, I forgot to include that in the quotes?  Silly me ;) :D :D


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Post Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 6:23 pm 
 

Hi folks,

I'm the seller of the two DunDraCon items that went back in April. Mars sent me a message asking about their origin. I tried to reply, but since we aren't involved in any transactions, eBay blocked both of my replies. So I thought I'd post here instead.

Anyways, I wish I could help. But I'm afraid I can't shed too much light on the origins of the two modules you're asking about. They came as an unexpected bonus inside a D&D Basic Set (Holmes version) that I picked up at a used bookstore here in Winnipeg back in 2002. I opened it up and there were the two DunDraCon modules sitting there in all of their late 70's glory.

When I got them, I did ask a friend here in town (a long-time member of the local gaming community) if he knew where they might have come from. His best guess was that someone probably picked them up at a con in the States. Apparently there used to be a few gamers here in Winnipeg who regularly travelled to cons all over the central & western states back in the late 70's.

Given the age of the items, I think it's likely that someone picked them up at the same time that they purchased the Holmes box set. From their condition (and the condition of the set), I'd say the buyer probably stuck them in a closet and forgot about them for twenty+ years.

Hope this helps and it's nice to see that the Acaeum is still going strong!

  

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Post Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 11:56 pm 
 

Hey Zander!  Good to see you out at the Acaeum.  I think one of the key points here is that you purchased them a number of years ago and somehow managed to make their way to Winnipeg so they are most likely from a different source than the recent ones.  I was thinking I should make the trip to Winnipeg this summer to see what's in the gaming stores (and visit a friend) when I drive up to Thunder Bay :)

I think it is safe to say that the production quality of the City Modules is pretty low but I believe they are legit.

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Post Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 6:13 pm 
 

I got another email from Aaron today, and he checked several sets, and they all have 9 map sheets + 1 cover sheet = 10 total, so perhaps I just ended up with an extra/duplicate sheet, rather than a missing sheet.  I'll check again later.


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Post Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 10:38 am 
 

* Bump *

I'd say Winnipeg could be considered an independent source for comparison purposes. Geographically, and timewise, they are not likely related to the same source.

For the record, I have six copies. But I might as well have fifty copies, because I can reproduce these almost exactly in both paper and ink quality on my photocopier. And anyone can get ahold of ziplock bags with a red line across the top.


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Post Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:55 pm 
 

mbassoc2003 wrote:* Bump *

I'd say Winnipeg could be considered an independent source for comparison purposes. Geographically, and timewise, they are not likely related to the same source.

For the record, I have six copies. But I might as well have fifty copies, because I can reproduce these almost exactly in both paper and ink quality on my photocopier. And anyone can get ahold of ziplock bags with a red line across the top.


They are undoubtedly one of the the crappiest gaming-related items ever released in the last 30 years; that alone should keep any collectors away.

Mike B.


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