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Post Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 5:39 pm 
 

NMilty wrote:WFRP, 7th Sea, Star Wars, MERP, World of Warcraft, Ravenloft d20, Kult are just a few that I can think of off the top of my head.


With all of these lines (MERP being the exception), there are only 1 or 2 books that sell for more than cover in a line of many - even for these lines it is probably 5 out of every 100 books.  I think the notion of "plenty" is a wrong one.  I think there are plenty of people who try and sell these books for more than cover price but I think run on an open auction, very few books sell for more than cover price.  Most of these lines peaked near the end of their publication dates.  7th Sea had Pirate Nations and Montaigne that were out of print first and could command $75-$100+ each while the other books were still in print.  I bought 3 of each at cover price from a store in Canada to resell on Ebay.  But now, they are fairly easy to find for less than cover.  Only the last 3 or 4 books seem to get any kind of value nowadays.

Just out curiosity, which Ravenloft D20 books do you put in this category?  I'm at a bit of a loss for naming any - maybe the deck?  All of the Gazetteers (even the high number ones) generally sell for less than cover.  I'm actually not sure why they ever sold for more than cover.  Its another one where it is fairly easy to find a gameshop that still has them on the shelf.  Again, Star Wars, I can really only name 2 books in all the D6 and D20 that sell for more than cover.

Maybe there is a difference in definition here.  I consider a book to "sell for more than cover price" when the majority of sales (maybe even 60-70% of sales) are above cover price.  There are plenty of examples where every once in a while a book will sell into this range but if the typical sale is below then I don't count it.

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Post Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 7:05 pm 
 

Mars wrote:
With all of these lines (MERP being the exception), there are only 1 or 2 books that sell for more than cover in a line of many - even for these lines it is probably 5 out of every 100 books.  I think the notion of "plenty" is a wrong one.  I think there are plenty of people who try and sell these books for more than cover price but I think run on an open auction, very few books sell for more than cover price.  Most of these lines peaked near the end of their publication dates.  7th Sea had Pirate Nations and Montaigne that were out of print first and could command $75-$100+ each while the other books were still in print.  I bought 3 of each at cover price from a store in Canada to resell on Ebay.  But now, they are fairly easy to find for less than cover.  Only the last 3 or 4 books seem to get any kind of value nowadays.

Maybe there is a difference in definition here.  I consider a book to "sell for more than cover price" when the majority of sales (maybe even 60-70% of sales) are above cover price.  There are plenty of examples where every once in a while a book will sell into this range but if the typical sale is below then I don't count it.


Mark I have to disagree. I haven't sold anything at auction for many, many years and continue to get far above cover for most items that sell steadily at fixed prices.   For instance, 7th Sea items are almost always over cover price, particularly the Nation books which sell steadily at twice cover for many of the titles.  Seeing as I get these at half cover or less the profit margin is comfortable enough for me to make a living selling this stuff.

Auction sales are pretty much a dead zone right now unless the item is rare or unusual; most reputable dealers use set prices and Buy It Now. I have records of sales going back several years and consistently many of these lines will sell for me far above cover price.  I can't even name an item from the last few years in the categories of WFRP, MERP, 7th Sea, or most D&D that sold at less than cover if I'm willing to wait a few weeks for someone to buy it at the listed price. Then again, I NEVER pay cover price for items I resell, perhaps the problem is speculators buying stuff at cover and attempting to make a large enough profit to justify their investment.

I think another issue is most resellers want a LARGE profit from an item, and tend to be discouraged if they don't triple or quadruple (or more) their investment.  Personally, twice what I paid for the item is often sufficient profit, for example in the case of Pirate Nations for 7th Sea I have sold many copies at $45 or so while other dealers continue to list them at $75-100 dollars, clearly not making sales on the item but for some reason hoping someone overpays.  Another example is the STar Wars 2nd edition revised rulebook, which I blow out at $35 whenever I get them, usually at half cover ($12.50 or so). I can see someone buying one for full cover ($25) being discouraged in their attempts to getting a price that would allow them a decent profit.

I would agree that if  you pay full price for say a Star Wars 2nd edition Revised Rulebook and put it up on ebay for auction you are going to be very, very disappointed more often than not.  Anyone willing to list as a BIN and be willing to wait until it sells will ALWAYS see a profit...my records show I have sold ten Star Wars 2nd Edition Revised Rulebooks the last few years, none for less than $35 (some for more), and not purchased at over $13.  For my purposes that's pretty solid; some might not agree though. I can add quite a few Star Wars d6 items to this list with similar profits....but you have to be patient enough to let it sit for awhile!

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Post Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 7:26 pm 
 

Not to overshare, but here is a list of Star Wars d6 products that ALWAYS sell over cover price for me, sometimes by a lot:

Stock Ships (with ships attached)
Rules of Engagement Specforce
2nd Edition Revised Rulebook
Pirates and Privateers
Alien Encounters Compendium
Gundark's Fantastic Tech
Platt's Smuggler's Guide
Tramp Freighters
Alien Races (revised)
Hideouts and Strongholds
Wretched Hives of Scum and Villainy
Aliens Enemies and Allies


Just a sampling there are more (the Adventure Journals sell pretty well) but you get the picture....

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Post Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 9:02 pm 
 

I totally agree with Mike.  While I am not as willing to give away my business model, I can name seven 2nd Ed WFRP titles that sell for much more than cover, and at least half of the 7th sea titles.

As for ravenloft, I just sold Gazetteer Vol 5 for $60 two days ago, and I recently sold the DM guide and player's handbook for close to that.  I know that Masque of the Red Death and 3-4 others sell well above cover.  

I think you can include Planescape in the dicussion.  There are at least 10 titles that sell very well.


Now that I have given away all of my state secrets my profits will float away to oblivion.

:oops:

  


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Post Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 9:47 pm 
 

Might as well give it all up....

Take advantage of the lull in Merp prices and especially Decipher Lord of the Rings Rpg Books (I know it's crap)!!  When the hobbit movie hits the theaters in 2012, look out.

I did this with Indiana Jones and Star Wars when the last group of those movies came out.  All of their respective rpg books were easy to find at retail or cheaper, especially the WEG line for Star Wars, and prices appreciated 2-3x in short time.  The hobbit will be huge, and great for fantasy genre items as well.  

Along the same lines, the Game of Thrones will premiere on HBO in April.  It's not the same as a blockbuster theater release, but it could have some impact on it's products.

  

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Post Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 10:21 pm 
 

NMilty wrote:Might as well give it all up....

Take advantage of the lull in Merp prices and especially Decipher Lord of the Rings Rpg Books (I know it's crap)!!  When the hobbit movie hits the theaters in 2012, look out.

I did this with Indiana Jones and Star Wars when the last group of those movies came out.  All of their respective rpg books were easy to find at retail or cheaper, especially the WEG line for Star Wars, and prices appreciated 2-3x in short time.  The hobbit will be huge, and great for fantasy genre items as well.  

Along the same lines, the Game of Thrones will premiere on HBO in April.  It's not the same as a blockbuster theater release, but it could have some impact on it's products.


Especially since those products are hard to find anyway.  I'd take a flier on any Game of Thrones items, including the boardgames (are they out of print?) if you can get them cheaper than cover price.

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Post Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 4:33 am 
 

Badmike wrote:
Thanks for the heads up, Mark. I went in for five copies, even with shipping they came out to $9 each, thats a good bargain for these.

Mike B.


Oooh boy, i tried to order a few but international postage apparently starts at $ 125 even for a single one and it doesn't get much better if i choose more !?! Tough luck...

  


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Post Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 10:09 am 
 

frankfromgermany wrote:
Oooh boy, i tried to order a few but international postage apparently starts at $ 125 even for a single one and it doesn't get much better if i choose more !?! Tough luck...


Frank, Do you want me to order some and ship them to you?  In a large flate rate box you could probably fit 5, and it is $60 insured from USPS??

I am going to put in an order for myself.

  

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Post Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 10:35 am 
 

Badmike wrote: I have sold ten Star Wars 2nd Edition Revised Rulebooks the last few years, none for less than $35 (some for more), and not purchased at over $13.  For my purposes that's pretty solid; some might not agree though. I can add quite a few Star Wars d6 items to this list with similar profits....but you have to be patient enough to let it sit for awhile!


There's the other difference.  You sell things as BIN prices.  In an open auction how much do you think you would get for it?  BIN target an impulse buying who has to have it now.  The flip side of this is buyers like me who are willing to wait a few months and will buy an item for super cheap.  A "true value" probably lies somewhere in the middle - not the absolute top or bottom.  I don't think any of the pricing/valuations generated here include BIN auctions and there is a reason for it.  Generally, I think of a valuation as something that you could get for it today (not have to wait 6 months to a year to get).

Not to refute your sales but isn't $35 the cover price for the Star Wars 2nd Edition Revised (I don't have mine handy)?  Then after Ebay fees (BIN is 12%, Paypal another 2.9?) your at $30.

Also, simple question, if you ran an open auction starting at 99 cents for any of the items listed, how many do you think would get close to cover price?

Although this isn't the point of our discussion, its worth mentioning that as aforeign seller, there are many differences between us too.

1) The cover price on most books for me is 15-40% more than for you on older books even though the US dollar is worth LESS than the Canadian dollar these days.  So even if you sell a book for US cover, its 15-40% less than Canadian cover price.

2) I will never get the same exposure that you do because shipping is more expensive.

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Post Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 10:44 am 
 

NMilty wrote:As for ravenloft, I just sold Gazetteer Vol 5 for $60 two days ago.


I can stop off at my local game shop and buy 2 of these off the shelf for $30 each or order 1 online from a Canadian store for $26.08 + $4 shipping.

Not sure about the DMG, etc.  I haven't paid much attention to those.

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Post Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 11:34 am 
 

Mars wrote:
There's the other difference.  You sell things as BIN prices.  In an open auction how much do you think you would get for it?  BIN target an impulse buying who has to have it now.  The flip side of this is buyers like me who are willing to wait a few months and will buy an item for super cheap.  A "true value" probably lies somewhere in the middle - not the absolute top or bottom.  I don't think any of the pricing/valuations generated here include BIN auctions and there is a reason for it.  Generally, I think of a valuation as something that you could get for it today (not have to wait 6 months to a year to get).


I totally agree with that Mark, but since I have not sold anything at auction in over 5 years I wouldn't have a clue to auction prices....which usually favor the buyer and not the seller. Sure you have crazy outliers where something goes way over price due to two clueless bidders, but in my case I've found that occurs so seldom I have abandoned the auction except for very rare or unusual items.  Once Ebay introduced the concept of stores and BIN prices, the auction was killed except as a novelty.  Why would I wait a week, and a chance to lose an auction by a sniper, when this guy over here has the same item at a price I'm willing to pay and I can buy it NOW and have it in my hands before the first guy's auction has even ended? We are a nation, a culture, a world of impulse buyers, and the true bargain collector is a dying breed.

Auction prices IMO are less indicative of "true" prices for items, because auction prices occur in a compressed, artificial time period and aren't true "market" prices.  If I have sold 10 Star Wars 2nd edition revised rulebooks for $35 over the period of a few years that's enough information for me.  I understand that one in a week auction might sell for $10 but that just indicates to me someone got a great deal, and is not a reflection of it's true value.  Look, I buy stuff at auction because I can reprice and resell it for a profit....I wouldnt' do that if auction prices were the "real" price.


Not to refute your sales but isn't $35 the cover price for the Star Wars 2nd Edition Revised (I don't have mine handy)?  Then after Ebay fees (BIN is 12%, Paypal another 2.9?) your at $30.


No, they are $30....we were both off. I buy them half cover or less though. There are very few items I would buy at cover and expect to make a profit out of them, and I figure that into my calculations.

Also, simple question, if you ran an open auction starting at 99 cents for any of the items listed, how many do you think would get close to cover price?


Not many...but IMO that's a bad business model.  Maximum profit is NOT gained through a quick auction. There are too many factors.....is the weather bad that week, are the two people who really want the item not at their computer that week, is the one guy who could really afford to pay max price for that item low on cash that week, is the guy who really loves that genre out of town on vacation, etc.  Auctions, while a great mechanism to get an item out in a set amount of time, are a TERRIBLE mechanism for getting the true value out of an item (unless, of course, it's a rare or unusual item, and even then there are caveats)

Although this isn't the point of our discussion, its worth mentioning that as aforeign seller, there are many differences between us too.

1) The cover price on most books for me is 15-40% more than for you on older books even though the US dollar is worth LESS than the Canadian dollar these days.  So even if you sell a book for US cover, its 15-40% less than Canadian cover price.

2) I will never get the same exposure that you do because shipping is more expensive.


I agree on that. Shipping is the biggie because with free shipping supplies and flat rate shipping costs, US sellers will always have an advantage in that regard. And buying a lot of ebay to break up and sell will benefit you less because you have to pay more for it to reach you, cutting into profit.

Maybe we are just looking at this through two different sets of eyes...collector vs reseller.  When I look at buying something I look at it critically from the point of what kind of profit can I make. You also have to remember that there are a lot of people out there that will pay a premium for the convenience of buying something now and getting in a few days, and this is what drives a lot of ebay businesses.

Mike B.[/quote]


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Post Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 3:15 am 
 

Necromancer's d20 Caverns of Thracia in this lot:




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Post Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:17 pm 
 

At the risk of expanding my want list... *sigh*

What d20/3E/3.5E/4E/C&C/etc. material is good?  I'm not looking for this as collectible/investment, but rather to find the 10 or 20 (could there be more?) books that are truly well written and interesting, whether they're going for $5 or $200, and getting just those to add to my collection as useful sourcebooks/settings/adventures.

I've been paying much more attention to OSR material (I should really start a thread about those), so I know pretty much nothing about this niche.  I have the Zagyg/Yggsburgh material and the d20 Thieves World books, and I think that's all.

I scanned through this thread, but more often than not I saw "pretty good" or "not too bad" rather than rave reviews.  Gryphon's Legacy and Lost City Of Gaxmoor seemed to be the ones that got thumbs up a while back.  What else?


Areas of interest/knowledge: Harn, WFRP, Ars Magica, anything BRP based such as CoC, Runequest, Pendragon and all their related games

  


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Post Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:48 pm 
 

What d20/3E/3.5E/4E/C&C/etc. material is good? I'm not looking for this as collectible/investment, but rather to find the 10 or 20 (could there be more?) books that are truly well written and interesting, whether they're going for $5 or $200, and getting just those to add to my collection as useful sourcebooks/settings/adventures.


I jumped into 3.5+ a few years back after picking up some Goodman Games items at random; I happened to get in early when the modules were still money ("money" = good, not "money" = really expensive, though some of the rares are).  I've also gotten hard into Necromancer Games which I've found to be excellent, with a shout out for it's succesor (sorta) Frog God Games (Slumbering Tsar has been a load of fun so far and massively detailed).  

I will also mention that the Pathfinder Adventure Paths can be extremely good (the first one and the Curse of the Crimson Throne seem to be the high points, but I'm backlogged with reading for a year or so).  Some of the modules have been excellent.  There's a reason that it might surpass D&D for the next iteration - the rules are good but the quality of the supporting materials are superb.

If you're just trying for 'best of breed', the ENnie's gold/silver recommendations are pretty spot on.

http://www.ennie-awards.com/ennies/blog/

Sunrunner44, only slightly helpful

  

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Post Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:07 pm 
 

TheHistorian wrote:but rather to find the 10 or 20 (could there be more?) books that are truly well written and interesting, whether they're going for $5 or $200, and getting just those to add to my collection as useful sourcebooks/settings/adventures.

Fantasy materials that I find interesting and useful if not collectible or well-written:
    Adventures
    • Goodman Games' Dungeon Crawl Classics #29: The Adventure Begins is a hardback of twenty first-level adventures.
    • Goodman Games' Dungeon Crawl Classics #51: Castle Whiterock boxed set has been panned for various reasons . . . so use whatever portions you like.
    • AEG's World's Largest Dungeon has been panned for being a poorly-written mega-dungeon . . . so use it as a source for smaller dungeons.
    DM Tools
    • AEG's Toolbox is a softcover full of random tables.
    • AEG's Ultimate Toolbox is a softcover full of different random tables, but I have never owned it.
    • Black Blade's two Mythmere's Adventure Design Deskbook volumes deal with adventure writing and monsters, respectively.
    • Mongoose Publishing's Slayer's Guide series is poorly-edited and unevenly-written but provides a look into the society/world/ecology of different monsters.
    • WotC's three Dungeon Tiles Master Sets (Dungeon, Wilderness, and City) are useful if you play with miniatures.
    Magazines/Podcasts
    • Fight On! magazine from Ignatius Umlaut
    • Knockspell magazine from Mythmere
    • Roll for Initiative AD&D 1E podcast
    • Save or Die OD&D podcast

Ask me again tomorrow, and my opinion will change.  :)

  

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Post Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 3:30 pm 
 

TheHistorian wrote:At the risk of expanding my want list... *sigh*

What d20/3E/3.5E/4E/C&C/etc. material is good?  


Rappan Athuk Reloaded - best RPG product of the d20 era, IMHO
  - not that readily available (unless by .pdf) but you probably can find R1-R3 without difficulty and for a lot less $

Other Necromancer Games stuff - RAR was their best, but their other adventures/settings and Judges Guild remakes are also among the best d20.  Tomb of Abysthor is really good if you can get a hold of that.

Ptolus - another great product, with a good mix of very thorough detail and open endedness/areas to build upon for creative DMs.  Probably cost you $150-$200.

Paizo's Pathfinder Adventure Paths - I like these a lot.  My favorite was Rise of the Runelords, then Kingmaker.
Paizo's Pathfinder Modules - I find them a step down from the APs, but still good.
Paizo's other Pathfinder stuff - The setting material is pretty good, I like the "Classic" ecology series ("Classic Monsters Revisited," etc.).  As a whole, the setting suffers by trying to shoehorn a lot of different fantasy cultures into the same world (similar to Forgotten Realms), but piecemeal, the elements are well done.

I really like the magazine from Wolfgang Baur "Kobold Quarterly," and all of his Zobeck/Open Design material.  They are patron projects, but the more recent projects have been made available to the public and I think the Zobeck setting is really cool.

  

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Post Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 3:56 pm 
 

Thinking of Paizo and Open Design (Kobold Quarterly et al) as post-D20 publishers, and so leaving them out....

That would leave the following D20 companies standing on top:

1) Necromancer Games (and Frog God Games as its successor)

2) Goodman Games (Dungeon Crawl Classics line)

3)  Green Ronin (Mythic Vistas, Races of Renown)

4)  Alderac Entertainment Group AEG

5)  Troll Lord Games (fifth place for a reason)


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Post Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 4:23 pm 
 

I'd add Privateer Press's Iron Kingdoms to the list of excellent d20 products.  The setting though is not straight fantasy so it may not be your thing, but includes elements of "steam punk".  The material is very well written though.

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