What text style would you prefer in a PPP Bottle City book?
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Poll: Which text format would you prefer in a Pied Piper "Bottle City" level publication?

Edit the text fully to make it standard English, and expand abbreviations, add contextual details, reference rules where appropriate, etc. 67%       67%  [ 26 ]
Preserve the original text as much as possible by correcting typos, hard-to-read handwriting, and other errors, but leaving abbreviations alone and not providing any additional content/context. 28%       28%  [ 11 ]
Preserve the original text "as is" with typos, funky handwriting, strange abbreviations, etc. 5%       5%  [ 2 ]
Total votes : 39

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Post Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 1:02 pm 
 

The Robilar wrote:I take it that a lot of folks here want to see this published so that it is usable to some extent in play as well?

-snip-

We are considering all options so that the Historical/Collector crowd as well as the gaming crowd are satiisfied with the final offering but do not wish to compromise the integrity of the piece in one way or the other.



Hi Rob,
I hope your placement of "Historical/Collector crowd" before "gaming crowd" was intentional.  

I would very much like to see this published, but almost entirely from my interest in the history of the game and key elements in its origins and evolution.  I vote for minimal editing and fleshing out.  Try to preserve the look of the piece as it was originally written and, perhaps more importantly, the "feel" of the piece for what it represents of the style of the game as it existed and was played at the time.  

Great project.  Good luck!

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Post Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 1:03 pm 
 

There is of course the problem of IP when it comes to Greyhawk significance.


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Post Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 1:08 pm 
 

Halaster wrote:I'd prefer a nice, fully edited transcription. In other words, correct any spelling errors, typos, etc.

I agree with Halaster.  I don't want to strain my bad eyes and tiny brain trying to make sense of two encrypted pieces of text.  Give me the final translation so I can compare it to the original scribblings, but don't leave me without the definitive version.

Goofy Question:  Can volumes of the book with different content be published?  One volume can have clearly-edited and properly-formatted text and maps, another with the original handwritten text and maps, and a third with the "facing-page" format.  Pack 'em together or sell them separately.  OK, silly idea --- it would confuse buyers and piss off collectors.

  


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Post Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 1:44 pm 
 

Mythmere wrote:I absolutely would like to see the original pages.


I think these will be included no matter what.



  

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Post Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 2:43 pm 
 

The Robilar wrote:There is of course the problem of IP when it comes to Greyhawk significance.

So, spell it differently and claim it has no connection what so ever.
Grayhawk or Greyhack or 'the unmentionable EGG campaign setting' or just refer to 'GH'. :D


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Post Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 4:36 pm 
 

EGGhawk

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Post Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 5:33 am 
 

If the original pages (notes and maps) are included, expansion or filling out may as well be done, as we will have the scans of the notes to look at and decipher. If these are omitted, I would prefer an approach similar to Dave Arneson's First Fantasy campaign - a transcription with abbreviations cleared up. In any case, using the third metod would be a bad idea.

  


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Post Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:10 am 
 

mbassoc2003 wrote:So, spell it differently and claim it has no connection what so ever.
Grayhawk or Greyhack or 'the unmentionable EGG campaign setting' or just refer to 'GH'. :D


Someone on Dragonsfoot suggested 'Original Lake Geneva Dungeons', which I thought sounded nice, though perhaps too long. How about Castle Geneva? Castle Genhawk?  :wink:

I think the original U&WA (Vol III) referred to 'Grayhawk'.

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Post Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 9:41 am 
 

GH should suffice.


"How now, varlet! said Ralibar Vooz..."  "Who are you that speak so churlishly to a magistrate of Commoriom and a cousin to King Homquat?"  C. A. Smith--The Seven Geases

  

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Post Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 10:50 am 
 

GH with no explanation of what GH stood for, or a preamble describing it as the original Lake Geneva campaign setting should not breach anyone's copyright.

Also, I wouldn't have thought a piece of retrospective work by one of the original contributors could be disputed. If you were writing a biography, WoTC couldn't object to you describing what you worked on with TSR. This piece could be presented as a look back at a piece of gaming history (Castle Greyhawk as a whole), with a little history, some 'we did this, we did that', 'it played out like this', and concentrating heavily on one particular level; 'lets focus on this'.

A small narative running alongside the keyed locations would make it a biographical work, and you always retain the right to biographical work unless you signed the Official Secrets Act in the UK or America's equivelant.

WoTC couldn't touch you. It would be like them sueing a guy who wrote that he went to GenCon and played a tourney set in Ravenloft.


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Post Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 11:16 am 
 

Yes, I thought of this too, a biographocal-like approach.  There is mention of the "Nine" in the MS however, different deal altogether and one that cannot be skirted so easily.


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Post Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 1:07 pm 
 

Badmike wrote:
I vote for redoing and modernizing the entire thing, but perhaps at the back of the module having a few pages showing the original manuscript and parts of maps (like the ones on your webpage).  It's cool to see the original handwritten pages, but I'm sure in the long run this would get tedious and would add unneccesary pages and cost to the project.  A couple of examples are nice, but I really don't need to see the entire module in the original form.

Mike B.


Ditto, sounds good to me!

  


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Post Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 1:20 pm 
 

It is certain that we will not adopt the partial approach to presenting this original work.  It is One large map and 13 pages of text only and it was a given from PPP's production viewpoint when this began that iits entirety would be presented, what is at issue here is how to produce and package the supporting and "secondary" materiall.

If the partial approach was in fact championed by the results of this poll and others ongoing at the moment, I would be reticent to have the work reproduced in this manner.

RJK


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Post Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 4:32 pm 
 

Surely the mentioning of the Nine, and any associated discussion could still be dealt with in descriptive biographical narative. Write everything in past tense and claim it was a retrospective.


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Post Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 5:03 pm 
 

What about if the occur in the keyed encounter textm which is what I am referring to.


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Post Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:30 pm 
 

The Robilar wrote:What about if the occur in the keyed encounter textm which is what I am referring to.


How extensive is the description? Do you mean it just says "The Nine", or that it has nine names written out. I would think that a passing reference to "The Nine" would not be any more copyrightable then, say, the name "First Edition".

http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ34.html

"Copyright Protection Not Available for Names, Titles, or Short Phrases"

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Post Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:39 pm 
 

All names written out, I generalized by saying the Nine.


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Post Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 8:31 pm 
 

Greyhawk and its gods, place names, etc. are product identity of WotC and can't be used as-is without permission:  we can certainly ask for permission, and if that doesn't work, I'm sure we can come up with creative work-arounds.


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Post Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 1:52 am 
 

I just thought of this...

Since it's widely known that the Greyhawk material produced for TSR was not the same Greyhawk campaign that Rob and Gary actually campaigned in, why not just refer to it as "Kuntz's/Gygax's Personal Greyhawk Campaign" or "The Original Greyhawk" or something? Since this would be based on the personal campaign that Rob and Gary played in and co-created, and is a historical document, it wouldn't be breaking copyright, would it?  

And as mbassoc2003 said, if done in the past tense, this would be merely a retrospective, a historical documentation of the personal campaign of two people, not the GH owned by TSR (now WOTC). Would that not avoid copyright issues?


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Post Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 11:50 am 
 

Well, if I played an extensive campaign in ERK, and I had a claim to have been party to it's creation, I could write that as I recalled, this happenned, that happened, this charater was present, that character did this or that, such and such a notable NPC was written into the adventure here and then this happenned.

If it were my description of the adventure and how it played out, and I produced a map to supplement it, the only copyright infringement I would be guilty of is redrawing a map I did not own. That is something you don't have to worry about.

Provided everything you write is a recollection of history from your point of view, no matter what you write or in how much detail, you are untouchable.


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