What text style would you prefer in a PPP Bottle City book?
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Poll: Which text format would you prefer in a Pied Piper "Bottle City" level publication?

Edit the text fully to make it standard English, and expand abbreviations, add contextual details, reference rules where appropriate, etc. 67%       67%  [ 26 ]
Preserve the original text as much as possible by correcting typos, hard-to-read handwriting, and other errors, but leaving abbreviations alone and not providing any additional content/context. 28%       28%  [ 11 ]
Preserve the original text "as is" with typos, funky handwriting, strange abbreviations, etc. 5%       5%  [ 2 ]
Total votes : 39

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Post Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 10:32 pm 
 

I'm working with Rob on preparing the once-Greyhawk-Castle "Bottle City" level for publication, and need your input.  Which text format/style would you prefer in a Bottle City publication from Pied Piper Publishing?



For context, the printed book format we're considering for this project is a facing-page transcription.  That is, on the right page would be a high-quality reproduction of the original Bottle City manuscript page, while facing it on left page would be a typed transcription of the same page.  Maps would be handled similarly (updated single-page "playing" map on the left, reproduction of the original map on the right; actual-sized poster-sized maps are also being investigated as print options, too).  



For reference, the original Bottle City auction image is preserved in Paul Stormberg's eBay "About Me" page at http://cgi3.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?V ... tors_trove



What I need to determine from this poll is how exactly interested you are in reproducing the exact text from the manuscript pages.  I can transcribe them as-is, or clean them up quite a bit.  



To facilitate your voting, I have posted a .pdf on my web site with a sample encounter from the Bottle City level:  one in the format of how I would I render an exact transcription, one that I consider an partially cleaned-up transcription that tries to hold the middle ground between a full edit and the exact original, and an exact/original transcription.  I've also provided the original manuscript encounter for comparison, as well as a section from the map for reference (I don't provide a cleaned-up, nicely redrawn map since I don't have one yet :D ).  The file is at http://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/te ... s-poll.pdf



Your thoughtful comments and feedback are very appreciated!  Thanks :D


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Post Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 11:21 pm 
 

Grodog,
Based on your website and contributions here I would trust your editorial approach to this project. I would appreciate contextual commentary by Rob regarding the Bottle City. My preferred format would be similar to the "History of Middle Earth" series by Christopher Tolkien where the original texts are presented with commentary.

I think the facing page scans/text sounds great...I would prefer the "full edit" you demonstrate in the pdf. The scan of the original will provide the unaltered text in sufficient form.

I find this approach to be very encouraging!

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Post Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 2:35 am 
 

I voted for #2, but I actually prefer something seemingly about halfway between #1 and #2 -- correct spelling and grammatical errors, translate abbreviations, but no other editorial additions or clarifications (such as your attempt in the example to clear up the original text's ambiguous references to "turns" in place of rounds).

See also a slightly more detailed response I gave here at the K&K Alehouse while waiting for my Acaeum registration to process (can't believe I'd apparently never been registered before -- I've been visiting this site for years, and even have a credited contribution (the comparison of the 1977-78 vs 1980 Monster and Treasure Assortments)).



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Post Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 3:06 am 
 

i voted #1

i like Robs writing style and know Gro is the main man on editing and after reading his CotSK review, i fully trust his abilities on doing the right thing for editing and making the product a superb publication.

Al



  

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Post Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 3:16 am 
 

just to clarify a doubt i have: what do you mean by editing?

...because one issue is editing and another is publishing... i'm so sorry but i cannot have a look to the pdf because i'm at home and i have a 56k connection only...

just for info: i'm part of an italian d&d community and i use to publish most of their pdfs (or, at least, i used)... i'm not a professionist, anyway i'm in touch with all the concerns related to publication... in case you need a hand, pm me! (i know how to handle adobe pagemaker... it's a shitty product but the outcome is really great!)


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Post Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 3:20 am 
 

Since you're going with a facing-page concept, which is an excellent format btw,  the typed manuscript should be cleaned up and expanded as much as possible.

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Post Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 7:24 am 
 

"just for info: i'm part of an italian d&d community and i use to publish most of their pdfs (or, at least, i used)... i'm not a professionist, anyway i'm in touch with all the concerns related to publication... in case you need a hand, pm me!"

Just to ckarify, this will not be published electronically.

RJK


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Post Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 9:44 am 
 

Just to clarify no matter what you guys are planning on providing a copy of the original manuscript correct?

If that is in fact the case then, I would defintiley go for option #1.  However, if for some reason I am misinterpreting that you guys are not planning on providing a copy of the original maps & text, then I would go with option #2.  To me its most important to see what the original map and notes look like and everything else would be just gravy. So with that though, if you are going to provide a modified version anyway, to go along with an original unedited version, then going for a full out edited version would be the way to go. :)


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Post Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 12:22 pm 
 

grodog wrote:I'm working with Rob on preparing the once-Greyhawk-Castle "Bottle City" level for publication, and need your input.  Which text format/style would you prefer in a Bottle City publication from Pied Piper Publishing?

For context, the printed book format we're considering for this project is a facing-page transcription.  That is, on the right page would be a high-quality reproduction of the original Bottle City manuscript page, while facing it on left page would be a typed transcription of the same page.  Maps would be handled similarly (updated single-page "playing" map on the left, reproduction of the original map on the right; actual-sized poster-sized maps are also being investigated as print options, too).  

For reference, the original Bottle City auction image is preserved in Paul Stormberg's eBay "About Me" page at http://cgi3.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?V ... tors_trove

What I need to determine from this poll is how exactly interested you are in reproducing the exact text from the manuscript pages.  I can transcribe them as-is, or clean them up quite a bit.  

To facilitate your voting, I have posted a .pdf on my web site with a sample encounter from the Bottle City level:  one in the format of how I would I render an exact transcription, one that I consider an partially cleaned-up transcription that tries to hold the middle ground between a full edit and the exact original, and an exact/original transcription.  I've also provided the original manuscript encounter for comparison, as well as a section from the map for reference (I don't provide a cleaned-up, nicely redrawn map since I don't have one yet :D ).  The file is at http://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/te ... s-poll.pdf

Your thoughtful comments and feedback are very appreciated!  Thanks :D




I vote for redoing and modernizing the entire thing (cleaning it up), but perhaps at the back of the module having a few pages showing the original manuscript and parts of maps (like the ones on your webpage).  It's cool to see the original handwritten pages, but I'm sure in the long run this would get tedious and would add unneccesary pages and cost to the project.  A couple of examples are nice, but I really don't need to see the entire module in the original form. You have a real feel for the stuff  due to your association with the World of Greyhawk, there is a very small selection of people I would choose to work on something like this with Rob, I think I speak for most in thecommunity when I say we trust your judgement on this.



Mike B.


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Post Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 12:25 pm 
 

BTW, this may be totally off topic Al (or maybe not), but is there any way a project could be put forth using the Black Reservoir short story of Gary's and perhaps any maps/written info about this level? Does Gary/Rob even have any info about this level/encounter area anymore? I always enjoy reading that story because it's the very essence of what I imagine Castle Greyhawk to be...dark, mysterious, frightening, and deadly.  

Mike B.


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Post Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 3:32 pm 
 

Badmike wrote:BTW, this may be totally off topic Al (or maybe not), but is there any way a project could be put forth using the Black Reservoir short story of Gary's and perhaps any maps/written info about this level? Does Gary/Rob even have any info about this level/encounter area anymore? I always enjoy reading that story because it's the very essence of what I imagine Castle Greyhawk to be...dark, mysterious, frightening, and deadly.


Rob and Gary are both aware of the story, Mike, since I've certainly brought it to their attention a few different times.  I imagine that it will see print in an upcoming collection of stories about Castle Greyhawk that Gary's planning to publish sometime over the next year or so.  I agree completely about how cool the story is :D :D


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Post Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 3:34 pm 
 

T. Foster wrote:(can't believe I'd apparently never been registered before -- I've been visiting this site for years, and even have a credited contribution (the comparison of the 1977-78 vs 1980 Monster and Treasure Assortments)).


Welcome to the forums, Trent :D


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Post Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 6:27 pm 
 

bclarkie wrote:Just to clarify no matter what you guys are planning on providing a copy of the original manuscript correct?

If that is in fact the case then, I would defintiley go for option #1.  However, if for some reason I am misinterpreting that you guys are not planning on providing a copy of the original maps & text, then I would go with option #2.  To me its most important to see what the original map and notes look like and everything else would be just gravy. So with that though, if you are going to provide a modified version anyway, to go along with an original unedited version, then going for a full out edited version would be the way to go. :)


Ditto.

I'd like to see as much of the original content as possible.  I'm sure you'll do a great job with it, Allan, no matter how you decide to approach it.  But for me, the interest lies in the history it replicates and represents, rather than the playability of the product.


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Post Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 2:11 am 
 

I'd prefer a nice, fully edited transcription.  In other words, correct any spelling errors, typos, etc. Also, as I pointed out at PPP, it's one thing to use mixed-case letters in a hand-written document, and we'd be seeing that in the scans of the originals. However, it is extremely irritating on the eyes to read type-written text that looks like this:

"HeRe is wHeRe tHe DooR OpeNs."

Not only is it tiresome and irritating to the eyes, but it also makes it feel like a Planescape offering. :roll: So I'd prefer that the transcriptions read nice and professional and clear:

"Here is where the door opens."

I do disagree with BadMike though, about the completeness of it. I think since it is a historical document, we should have every page, all the notes, and all the maps presented in their original form. I'd rather pay $100 or so for a complete package, than $50 or less for one that is mainly transcriptions without the originals for reference. It's the historian/collector in me.  :wink:


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Post Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 2:43 am 
 

The Robilar wrote:"just for info: i'm part of an italian d&d community and i use to publish most of their pdfs (or, at least, i used)... i'm not a professionist, anyway i'm in touch with all the concerns related to publication... in case you need a hand, pm me!"

Just to ckarify, this will not be published electronically.

RJK


uhmmm... ok! my offer is anyway valid: paper printings are based on files as well as pdf! it's clear that i'd manage only hte first of the publication (that one until the work is sent to press)...


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Post Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 9:09 am 
 

I take it that a lot of folks here want to see this published so that it is usable to some extent in play as well?

In which case the product, by course, would have to be expanded to a considerable degree.  I will entertain that if the poll shows that course, but I believe that even brevity of description with no extras might be the course in that event.  We are considering all options so that the Historical/Collector crowd as well as the gaming crowd are satiisfied with the final offering but do not wish to compromise the integrity of the piece in one way or the other.

A fine line.

If I were distanced from this and just a non-author grognard, I would prefer the straight transcription with editing to clarify content and let the purchaser take it from there.  Thus I voted #2, but what do I know... ;)

Thanks for the input so far. :)

Rob


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Post Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 10:15 am 
 

Hmmm ... I am probably a bit biased in my answer to this poll.....  :lol:

I would like to see the full edited / expanded version as I am quite happy to look at the original on the wall  :twisted:

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Post Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 10:49 am 
 

Heh.  :)  There's some real down-under, bought-and-paid-for braggadocio.  :)

Well outside of the fact that Improv owns the original, we still must see to getting this to  the public as well, as all of us cant afford a trip to Improv's Museum in Australia.  Heh.

R.


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Post Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 12:04 pm 
 

I must concur. An expanded version of the keyed encounters with the original map would be something I'd buy.


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Post Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 12:48 pm 
 

I was torn between the first option (adding stuff) and the second.  I'd like abbreviations to be filled out, and a tiny amount of content added; just enough to key in a non GH expert on the significance of the encounters, etc.  That actually might be done separately if there's introductory material with comments and reminiscences, etc.

So really, I vote for the second option except with the abbreviations filled in.  What I actually VOTED was option number 1, but god, please let's not put in too much extra material.

I absolutely would like to see the original pages.

  
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