Siege of Bodenburg
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Post Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 9:00 pm 
 

zhowar wrote:This OD&D "alternate-reality" thread over on Dragonsfoot suddenly seems relevant:
http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=15501

*chuckles*. Strangely enough I'd been wondering 'bout "Jason & the Argonauts" in a different context... Thanks, zhowar. :)

Well, for another "alternate-reality", what if Arneson hadn't helped shift EGG's interests into RPing?
*wonders whether EGG would be best known for his "alternative-histories", nowadays, if so*

  


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Post Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 9:04 pm 
 

faro wrote:
MShipley88 wrote:     I pointed out to him that it was impossible for Tolkien to utilize "cliches" in his writing...Tolkien is the father of the genre. Everyone else is copying him.

Cursed golden rings, wise wizards, shattered swords and epic quests.


Don't forget "Dragons"!  :wink:

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Post Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 9:14 pm 
 

zhowar wrote:
faro wrote:(There's an article (by EGG?) re. the relative popularity of different periods pre-/post- Chainmail/D&D, somewhere.... Might be in A&E ~#15 but I'd have to double-check).

Perhaps the "A Brief History of the Wargame in the United States" by Gyax in Little Wars Vol. 1 No. 1 (July 1976)?
The entire article is still posted on the Acaeum, here:
viewtopic.php?p=44401&highlight=wars+gygax#44401

Cheers.
That's not the one, but still an interesting (on-topic) re-read.

US-context and notably slanted with regards to the mention of "concurrent interest" in fantasy wargaming after reference is made to the publication of Chainmail. Forget those previous fantasy wargaming refs. to other authors five years prior to that date!
zhowar wrote:Don't forget "Dragons"!  :wink:

Dragons are pretty much everywhere except LoTR (to its credit... ^^).
*jk*

  


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Post Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 9:28 pm 
 

faro wrote:Dragons are pretty much everywhere except LoTR (to its credit... ^^).
*jk*


You don't consider Scatha?

Of his son, Fram, they tell that he slew Scatha, the great dragon of Ered Mithrin, and the land had peace from the long-worms afterwards. Thus Fram won great wealth, but was at feud with the Dwarves, who claimed the hoard of Scatha. Fram would not yield them a penny, and sent to them instead the teeth of Scatha made into a necklace, saying: "Jewels such as these you will not match in your treasuries, for they are hard to come by." Some say that the Dwarves slew Fram for this insult. There was no great love between Éothéod and the Dwarves.


But it is just a snippet buried in the Appendices... (though I would've liked to have read that whole story!)

I was actually just lumping The Hobbit in with LOTR...

i have to say, I was immediately attracted to D&D when I found about it in 3rd grade & this was before having read any Tolkien. More based on interest in Greek/Norse mythology & vague notions of Wizards, and Knights fighting Dragons.

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Post Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 10:03 pm 
 

Here is the advertisement that Henry Bodenstedt ran in Strategy & Tactics #6 for the Elastolin figures:



Image



I have seen the castle for sale on ebay.  The siege tower and the catapult are currently available, but expensive: 60 pc knight's playset



Note that the castle on the map exactly corresponds to the model castle.  The game was meant to be played with the model castle!  It must have been incredibly fun to play.



Admittedly, Siege of Bodenburg did not create the fantasy genre.  What it did was motivate Gygax to buy these Elastolin figures and start playing medieval wargames.  It is probably what motivated Gygax to found the Castle & Crusade Society.



When Chainmail was published in 1971, there apparently wasn't too much in the way of medieval figures available.  As most people here probably know, Chainmail suggests Elastolin or Starlux, which are expensive and of a larger scale, 40mm, than most wargamers care for.  Chainmail also suggests the 30mm Airfix Robin Hood and Sheriff of Nottingham, which though cheap, lacked variety.



It is a matter of personal interest to me what other medieval figures were available.  I've been trying to find out whether the Scruby medievals and crusaders had been released yet.  Also I would be interested to know what was available in the UK.  It seems that by 1967 there were at least 4 manufacturers of wargaming miniatures over there.



I made the claim that D&D developed from medieval wargaming,  and some people have contested it.  I have to recognize that if D&D really had a strong medieval warfare parentage, then it would have good rules for attacking from horseback and conducting sieges of castles, which it doesn't, sad to say.

  

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Post Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 11:12 pm 
 

grubbiv wrote:When Chainmail was published in 1971, there apparently wasn't too much in the way of medieval figures available.

In the US, perhaps, but not over here.
e.g.

** expired eBay auction **


** expired eBay auction **


Plus as many German flats as you wish...

(Some day I'll have to reclaim a few of those my brother borrowed from my father).

grubbiv wrote:I made the claim that D&D developed from medieval wargaming,  and some people have contested it.  I have to recognize that if D&D really had a strong medieval warfare parentage, then it would have good rules for attacking from horseback and conducting sieges of castles, which it doesn't, sad to say.


Blame Arneson & co. yet again.

Not only did the Blackmoor bunch shift the playing style from skirmish (at best) to RPing, but they also shifted the scenario-of-choice firmly from medieval to fantasy.

Kiss goodbye to the jousting table*.



Heretical, no?



(* I'm not sure where those appeared first, btw. The resolution table isn't in DB #13 (or 6?), but don't know about #11. Could be in #5 or 1-4, I suppose?).

  

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Post Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 1:19 pm 
 

faro wrote:
MShipley88 wrote:Certainly, there were other writers dealing with fantasy material before Tolkien was published...E.R. Eddison (sp?)

"The greatest and most convincing writer of 'invented worlds' that I have read" - JRRT

Eddison and Tolkien knew each other.  They were part of the same circle of writers at Oxford.

MShipley88 wrote:A friend of mind criticized the first Lord of the Rings movie for incorporating, "too many fantasy cliches."

    I pointed out to him that it was impossible for Tolkien to utilize "cliches" in his writing...Tolkien is the father of the genre. Everyone else is copying him.


Tolkien certainly crafted his background utilizing material, names, etc. from mythological and older literary sources.  That is why you have the feeling, when reading, that there is a deeper story behind every name that you ought to know.  It is that illusion of depth that gives the story power.

MShipley88 wrote:The imagery, history, races and structure of a medieval fantasy world are his creation...

And pretty-much background fluff in the context of LoTR's plot which is just as well since he has difficulty creating a believable fantasy country or city far less patching those together into a self-sustaining whole. :)


I have to agree that Tolkien's world itself has some holes in it...gaping ones.  I think it derives partly from the need to describe a world where human kingdoms are divided by wilderness that is dominated by non-humans.  Tolkien's world is also more of an attempt to describe the dark ages world as the dark ages mind perceived it.  Tolkien was, foremost, a linguist, and his world more closely resembles the heroic world of Beowulf or The Battle of Malden (to which Tolkien actually wrote a sequel) than the high middle ages of Europe.

Mark   8)


"But I have watched the dragons come, fire-eyed, across the world."

  

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Post Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 1:23 pm 
 

Xaxaxe wrote:
MShipley88 wrote:REH (of whom I doubt Tolkien was even aware)

Not true, at least according to DeCamp, who claims he spent some memorable afternoons with Tolkien discussing "fantasy" literature.

Tolkien's reaction to REH, as reported by DeCamp: "I quite like much of it."


It would be interesting to read this.  Do you recall where this can be found?

Mark   8)


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Post Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 1:38 pm 
 

grubbiv wrote:Here is the advertisement that Henry Bodenstedt ran in Strategy & Tactics #6 for the Elastolin figures:

[ Image ]

I have seen the castle for sale on ebay.  The siege tower and the catapult are currently available, but expensive: 60 pc knight's playset

Note that the castle on the map exactly corresponds to the model castle.  The game was meant to be played with the model castle!  It must have been incredibly fun to play.

Admittedly, Siege of Bodenburg did not create the fantasy genre.  What it did was motivate Gygax to buy these Elastolin figures and start playing medieval wargames.  It is probably what motivated Gygax to found the Castle & Crusade Society.

When Chainmail was published in 1971, there apparently wasn't too much in the way of medieval figures available.  As most people here probably know, Chainmail suggests Elastolin or Starlux, which are expensive and of a larger scale, 40mm, than most wargamers care for.  Chainmail also suggests the 30mm Airfix Robin Hood and Sheriff of Nottingham, which though cheap, lacked variety.

It is a matter of personal interest to me what other medieval figures were available.  I've been trying to find out whether the Scruby medievals and crusaders had been released yet.  Also I would be interested to know what was available in the UK.  It seems that by 1967 there were at least 4 manufacturers of wargaming miniatures over there.

I made the claim that D&D developed from medieval wargaming,  and some people have contested it.  I have to recognize that if D&D really had a strong medieval warfare parentage, then it would have good rules for attacking from horseback and conducting sieges of castles, which it doesn't, sad to say.




There was a discussion of a plastic castle that was sold on Ebay in the last year.



Supposedly, the castle was part of the inspiration for D&D.  (Or, so said the auction posting.)



I believe it eventually sold for quite a bit.



Anyone remember the discussion strand?



Could this be the Bodenburg castle?



Mark   8)


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Post Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 1:38 pm 
 

Oh...wait...should have clicked on the link first.

Mark   8)


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Post Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 7:08 pm 
 

MShipley88 wrote:It would be interesting to read this.  Do you recall where this can be found?

Man, I did so well with the Stephen King quote, but I'm drawing a blank here.

I'm pretty sure I've come across JRR's sentiment toward REH in at least two locations. Since DeCamp is the go-between, I'm thinking maybe Sword of Conan or Blade of Conan ... or maybe it was something on the REHupa website ... or ... or ... something.

I'll bump the thread when I run across it.

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Post Posted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 4:39 am 
 

Well, it turns out it's on the Wiki, too:

"On the subject of Howard, L. Sprague de Camp states the following in his book Literary Swordsmen and Sorcerers: The Makers of Heroic Fantasy concerning an interview with J. R. R. Tolkien:
"We sat in the garage for a couple of hours, smoking pipes, drinking beer, and talking about a variety of things. Practically anything in English literature, from Beowulf down, Tolkien had read and could talk intelligently about. He indicated that he rather liked Howard's Conan stories."

Gotta love that Wiki ... :)

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Post Posted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 11:04 am 
 

MShipley88 wrote:There was a discussion of a plastic castle that was sold on Ebay in the last year.
Supposedly, the castle was part of the inspiration for D&D.  (Or, so said the auction posting.)
I believe it eventually sold for quite a bit.


Turns out that one of the seller's grandkids shilled the auction, so the item was never sold on eBay.  The original auction is listed at http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 8757431549

MShipley88 wrote:Anyone remember the discussion strand?
Could this be the Bodenburg castle?




I'm pretty sure the auction was discussed, but I can't seem to track it down via search at the moment.  The layout and the model do look pretty similar, upon further reflection:  check out http://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/te ... Castle.jpg


Allan Grohe ([email protected])
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Post Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 1:55 am 
 

I think it is entirely possible that this castle is the one depicted in the ad.

That would explain the seller's idea that the castle had been influential in the creation of D&D.

He probably didn't know enough to explain how Bodenberg helped to create an RPG with no visible connection.

Mark   8)


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