Siege of Bodenburg
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Post Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 12:22 am 
 

In an interview with gamebanshee

 http://www.gamebanshee.com/interviews/garygygax1.php

Gygax mentions a game called Siege of Bodenstadt [sic] which he says influenced the genesis of Chainmail.  I recently discovered that the game was actually called Siege of Bodenburg, and the entire game is availabe online at

 http://www.thortrains.net/armymen/bodebok1.html.

The online version is supposedly a scan of one of tens of thousands that Bodenstedt distributed for free to promote the sale of 40mm Elastolin figures, but I suspect that these rulebooks are quite rare today.  The rules were also published in Strategy & Tactics magazine issues #6 thru #10.

D&D developed from medieval miniature wargaming, but published rulesets for medieval wargaming that predate Chainmail appear to be few and far between.  Miniature wargaming in the mid 1960s appears to have been dominiated by  Napoleonics.  I wonder if anybody can find a pre-1969 ruleset for medievals other than Siege of Bodenburg.

  


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Post Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 7:59 am 
 

Interesting stuff, grubbiv.  I'm not well-versed in the history of wargames publishing, and don't really have any references to dig into how which medieval wargames were published prior to Chainmail.  

It would certainly be interesting to research this, since it would shed additional light on just how revolutionary Chainmail and then D&D were---if there was no market at all for medieval wargaming (whether true wargames or the nascent rpg "wargaming" market), then that places the initial rejections of D&D by AH and others (who?) in a different (more reasonable) light, and also makes the two games even more revolutionary than they already are:  they not only created a completely new field of gaming, but they essentially created a new genre for wargaming, too (if this hypothosis is true).  

Thoughts?


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Post Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 10:24 pm 
 

grodog wrote:Interesting stuff, grubbiv.  I'm not well-versed in the history of wargames publishing, and don't really have any references to dig into how which medieval wargames were published prior to Chainmail.  

It would certainly be interesting to research this, since it would shed additional light on just how revolutionary Chainmail and then D&D were---if there was no market at all for medieval wargaming (whether true wargames or the nascent rpg "wargaming" market), then that places the initial rejections of D&D by AH and others (who?) in a different (more reasonable) light, and also makes the two games even more revolutionary than they already are:  they not only created a completely new field of gaming, but they essentially created a new genre for wargaming, too (if this hypothosis is true).  

Thoughts?

Thoughts, y'say, Allan?
Well, for one I'm enjoying this thread immensely. :)

Reminds me v.m. of sharing a forum with a stack of 20 y.o. MMORPG fans and bringing up pen-and-paper RPGs on some of their threads.
And there's absolute silence...
Not a derisive silence; more one of "we ain't got the slightest clue what he's talking about-- let's say nothing and hold out for a change of subject or a new thread".
Happens almost every time.

"The past is another country; they do things differently there".


===
(I was kinda hoping one of the experts would pick this up: but if not...).

Certainly not a new genre at the time of Chainmail by any means, although medievals/ancients (yes, I'm lumping those) were apparently less popular in the US than the UK back then.
As to names and rulesets; well, I'd guess not so many rulesets were published beyond the local level because those were generally rather concise.
One name for the list, however, is Tony Bath who supplied an ancients ruleset plus scenario for Donald Featherstone's "War Games" (1962): a full battle report is also giving there. The book also makes it clear that a wide range of periods including medieval/ancient were played in various other games/campaigns. I don't have copies of Wargamer's Newsletter, etc., that far back to quote specific examples.
Tony's "Society of Ancients" (http://www.soa.org.uk/; founded 1965 - including medievals :)) is however, still going strong and interestingly, as an aside, issue #9 of their 'zine (1966) also has a lengthy article on fantasy milieus for wargames (same date as the Leo Cronin ref. spotted by Grubbiv ;)) and later issues (late 60s-1970) revisited Hyboria, Middle Earth, etc.

Not that medievals/ancients were UK-specific, since Joe Morschauser's "How to Play Wargames in Miniature" (later in 1962) also makes refs to those in US context, although the number of people specifically interested in such appears to remained relatively small there - even with the inclusion of Tom Webster's "Ancients Society" (q.v. DB #10), those time periods pretty much fell off the "preferred" list in the late-60s IFW surveys although were presumably a bit more common out-in-the-field.
(There's an article (by EGG?) re. the relative popularity of different periods pre-/post- Chainmail/D&D, somewhere.... Might be in A&E ~#15 but I'd have to double-check).

further aside: Featherstone's book above also contains brief 1:1 skirmish rules/scenario in an appendix (predating the other 1966/1969 refs) and as Grubbiv will also know, he also issued separate Ancient and Medieval rulesets in 1966.

Eh... where is this reply going, I wonder.
Trouble being anything pre-1962 could so easily be trumped by one of the numerous Kriegsspiel variants.
One of these days I'll eventually get around to asking the obvious questions on their fora...
*
For example, I have a 1943 variant ms. from France (pre-liberation of Paris, hence neatly disguised in folder) which uses hex maps rather than open-field and utilises a (hit) point system for the destruction of defensive features by artillery. Don't tell Dave Arneson. ;)
It would've been a cinch for any such refereed system to have been utilised for ancients/medievals from the 1810s onwards (just knock out the modern stuff).

Well, until I do a trawl through the other refs, but I'm far from being in the best position to do so. *g*
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Post Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 5:16 pm 
 

There is no way that a hobby pursued by a few hundred 30ish men could have prepared the way for Dungeons and Dragons.  If all of them had bought the game four times, it could not have sparked the phenomenon.

You need look no further back than 1957 and the first publication of The Lord of the Rings, and the Ace Paperback lawsuit that gave the book prominent national coverage.

With the appearance of The Lord of the Rings on the 1960's college mind, Dungeons and Dragons was (in retrospect) an inevitable step.

The market for D&D was primed by the 1970's publication of several paperback editions of the trilogy, as well as the 1977 airing of The Hobbit, by Rankin Bass.  Despite Gygax's own attempt to distance his game from Tolkien, the hard core of interested gamers...who recruited an unprecedented number of high school and junior high intellectuals...were fans of the trilogy who wanted more.  D&D was and is a facet of the Tolkien phenomenon.  IF you have not read Tolkien personally, you were recruited for the game by a friend, brother or cousin who did.

Stephen King has said it well...all the rest of the fantasy writers since Tolkien have been trying to bring Frodo back from the Grey Havens and re-kindle the story.

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Post Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 5:24 pm 
 

MShipley88 wrote: Stephen King has said it well...all the rest of the fantasy writers since Tolkien have been trying to bring Frodo back from the Grey Havens and re-kindle the story.

Mark   8)


Is that an exact quote or paraphrase? Also do you remember where you read that as I would like to read the article or what not he wrote that line in.


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Post Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 10:33 pm 
 

MShipley88 wrote:There is no way that a hobby pursued by a few hundred 30ish men could have prepared the way for Dungeons and Dragons.  If all of them had bought the game four times, it could not have sparked the phenomenon.

You need look no further back than 1957 and the first publication of The Lord of the Rings, and the Ace Paperback lawsuit that gave the book prominent national coverage.

With the appearance of The Lord of the Rings on the 1960's college mind, Dungeons and Dragons was (in retrospect) an inevitable step.

The market for D&D was primed by the 1970's publication of several paperback editions of the trilogy, as well as the 1977 airing of The Hobbit, by Rankin Bass.  Despite Gygax's own attempt to distance his game from Tolkien, the hard core of interested gamers...who recruited an unprecedented number of high school and junior high intellectuals...were fans of the trilogy who wanted more.  D&D was and is a facet of the Tolkien phenomenon.  IF you have not read Tolkien personally, you were recruited for the game by a friend, brother or cousin who did.

Stephen King has said it well...all the rest of the fantasy writers since Tolkien have been trying to bring Frodo back from the Grey Havens and re-kindle the story.

Mark   8)


I would say 1b behind Tolkien was REH and Conan. The Lancer reprints of the 60's (and later Ace reprints), and the Marvel comic series of the 70's, cannot be underestimated in determing influence upon those playing Dungeons & Dragons in that time period.   I myself was recruited to playing D&D in 1978 with the comment "You will like it, it's just like a Conan adventure."
  But I would definitely agree with your statement....Tolkien was the hand down main influence on D&D whether conciously or not.  You could make a case that in retrospect, Tolkien and Lord of the Rings is indirectly responsible for EVERY fantasy roleplaying game in existence today.  He is the 800 lb gorilla on top of every kitchen table that dice was ever rolled upon for a fantasy rpg.
  I would say though that Howard and Conan were somewhat significant in that their cultural influence was possibly the second greatest behind Tolkien.  No other fantasy writer/character, not Elric/Moorcock, Fritz Leiver, Jack Vance, Lovecraft, A. Merritt, Burroughs, Dunsany, etc had one one hundredth of the cultural recognition of Howard's character (with of course the exception of Tolkien which is even greater).  The character of Conan, along with Tolkien's bunch, was the template for probably more fantasy characters and situations than all other fantasy writers put together.  Your premise is dead on correct, IMO, but I think a smidgen of credit to REH's creation should enter into the formula.
 
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Post Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 12:20 am 
 

Erm... way off topic.
I thought this thread was about the seeds, not the ground; and the most fertile ground will bear nothing if nothing is planted.

If the "ground" was the thing, we'd be crediting the personal computer revolution to Asimov, Clarke and Lucas, amongst others.

(OT) Yeah, LoTR is one key factor with regards to the ground (1954/1965, not 1957/1970s); but other than supplying orcs for players to hack and a new wizard role model, where are all the novel Tolkienian devices which translated directly into actual, played RPG scenarios from the start?
I don't recall Tolkien being stated as much of an avid supporter and promoter of fantasy fiction (which was very much second-fiddle to SF in that period), unlike what the SAGA authors (Leiber, Anderson, Carter, deCamp, Jakes, Moorcook, Norton and Vance) actively carried out beyond their own works.

Besides, I'm absolutely certain that the percentage of raw RPG recruits who had read Tolkien was far less than the percentage who had roleplayed cops-and-robbers or cowboys-and-native Americans, as kids.
RPGs provided a formalised framework/channel for such pre-existing pastimes/behaviors and since fantasy had gotten a head-start in that niche (and in this case, we are most definitely talking about something which came about as a result of just a few innovators), it became a self-perpetuating myth that the lead fantasy figure of the day had somehow resulted in the creation of the RPG industry because of that "entry point" to the hobby.
*
"Space" was (unsurprisingly because of the date) the second-favorite era for wargaming in the 1969 IFW survey.
Had it been a slightly different group of people formulating RPG rules and bringing those to the public, we could so easily now be (doubly) paying homage to H.G. Wells and co., rather than J.R.R. Tolkien.

Meanwhile, back on topic... :?


=
[ed.] duh, me... tail-end 1965, not 1966, of course. For some reason I'd confused the 2nd edition date with the US pb release: the former being a response to the latter. :roll:

  

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Post Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 4:39 pm 
 

Marlith wrote:
MShipley88 wrote: Stephen King has said it well...all the rest of the fantasy writers since Tolkien have been trying to bring Frodo back from the Grey Havens and re-kindle the story.

Mark   8)


Is that an exact quote or paraphrase? Also do you remember where you read that as I would like to read the article or what not he wrote that line in.


It's a paraphrase...I'll have to dig up the exact quote for you.

Mark   8)


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Post Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 5:01 pm 
 

MShipley88 wrote:
Marlith wrote:
MShipley88 wrote: Stephen King has said it well...all the rest of the fantasy writers since Tolkien have been trying to bring Frodo back from the Grey Havens and re-kindle the story.

Mark   8)


Is that an exact quote or paraphrase? Also do you remember where you read that as I would like to read the article or what not he wrote that line in.


It's a paraphrase...I'll have to dig up the exact quote for you.

Mark   8)


I appreciate it. I don't agree with Stephen King all the time....I fall pretty far to the right...but on some things I do and a quote like that would be one. I would like to see what sort of context it was said in.


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Post Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 5:18 pm 
 

Almost all boys played cops and robbers or cowboys and indians.  The ones who read Tolkien, however, were the ones who went on to play Conan versus Cthulhu.

    A friend of mind criticized the first Lord of the Rings movie for incorporating, "too many fantasy cliches."

    I pointed out to him that it was impossible for Tolkien to utilize "cliches" in his writing...Tolkien is the father of the genre.  Everyone else is copying him.  The imagery, history, races and structure of a medieval fantasy world are his creation...so much so that the current fashion is to be as unlike Tolkien as possible...which is also a nod to his influence.

    Certainly, there were other writers dealing with fantasy material before Tolkien was published...E.R. Eddison (sp?), R.E. Howard and more...  Eddison could even be described as high fantasy, but....

    Aside from the superficial presence of swords and magic, Tolkien and Howard have little in common.  Tolkien brought the concept of the high fantasy quest to the modern mind.  REH (of whom I doubt Tolkien was even aware) was a writer of low fantasy.  His best stories all involve sordid events, amidst ruins, with sub-humans or human degenerates and an atavistic struggle over money and women.  

(Hey...works for me!  No need to apologize.  We could really use REH today, when so much of the fantasy genre has degenerated into a rather cloying stew of secular/feminist/lesbian/wicca/treehugger tripe.)

    REH is uncomfortable with material that rises above low fantasy...in The Hour of the Dragon, for instance, there is a clash of kingdoms involving ancient sorcery, but REH sends his main character off on a series of personal adventures in quest of the usual plot-device/gubbins/object...through ruins and against human degenerates.  Even his final battle scene is essentially a largescale personal combat.  This is low fantasy that barely resembles any of Tolkien's work.

    I admire Howard's work, but he owes the regeneration of his status as a writer to Tolkien's coat tails.  This is not to denegrate REH.  If it had not been for the demand created by Tolkien, even a deserving writer like REH might not have seen the wide paperback distribution that made his character famous.

    D&D is Tolkien, written small because Conan is a lot easier to re-produce on the tabletop than Tolkien's complex characters and large-scale situations.  But all of those hack-n-slash barbarians are battling against a background of elves, dwarves, goblins, orcs, kingdoms, wizards and dragons that are essentially Tolkien's creations.

    I realize I am droning on, so:   As much as I admire the work of Gary Gygax, his creation is destined to be remembered within the context of the Tolkien phenomenon, as is Howard.
   
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Post Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 5:21 pm 
 

And...I just remembered....

The paraphrase of Stephen King almost certainly comes from his really great book, On Writing.

My copy is currently packed away, out of my reach, but I'll give you the chapter and verse as soon as I locate it.  It might be awhile.   :lol:

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Post Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 6:57 pm 
 

MShipley88 wrote:Almost all boys played cops and robbers or cowboys and indians.  The ones who read Tolkien, however, were the ones who went on to play Conan versus Cthulhu.

    A friend of mind criticized the first Lord of the Rings movie for incorporating, "too many fantasy cliches."

    I pointed out to him that it was impossible for Tolkien to utilize "cliches" in his writing...Tolkien is the father of the genre.  Everyone else is copying him.  The imagery, history, races and structure of a medieval fantasy world are his creation...so much so that the current fashion is to be as unlike Tolkien as possible...which is also a nod to his influence.

    Certainly, there were other writers dealing with fantasy material before Tolkien was published...E.R. Eddison (sp?), R.E. Howard and more...  Eddison could even be described as high fantasy, but....

    Aside from the superficial presence of swords and magic, Tolkien and Howard have little in common.  Tolkien brought the concept of the high fantasy quest to the modern mind.  REH (of whom I doubt Tolkien was even aware) was a writer of low fantasy.  His best stories all involve sordid events, amidst ruins, with sub-humans or human degenerates and an atavistic struggle over money and women.  

(Hey...works for me!  No need to apologize.  We could really use REH today, when so much of the fantasy genre has degenerated into a rather cloying stew of secular/feminist/lesbian/wicca/treehugger tripe.)

    REH is uncomfortable with material that rises above low fantasy...in The Hour of the Dragon, for instance, there is a clash of kingdoms involving ancient sorcery, but REH sends his main character off on a series of personal adventures in quest of the usual plot-device/gubbins/object...through ruins and against human degenerates.  Even his final battle scene is essentially a largescale personal combat.  This is low fantasy that barely resembles any of Tolkien's work.

    I admire Howard's work, but he owes the regeneration of his status as a writer to Tolkien's coat tails.  This is not to denegrate REH.  If it had not been for the demand created by Tolkien, even a deserving writer like REH might not have seen the wide paperback distribution that made his character famous.

    D&D is Tolkien, written small because Conan is a lot easier to re-produce on the tabletop than Tolkien's complex characters and large-scale situations.  But all of those hack-n-slash barbarians are battling against a background of elves, dwarves, goblins, orcs, kingdoms, wizards and dragons that are essentially Tolkien's creations.

    I realize I am droning on, so:   As much as I admire the work of Gary Gygax, his creation is destined to be remembered within the context of the Tolkien phenomenon, as is Howard.
   
Mark   8)


Well I guess we can say D&D was the perfect mix of High Fantasy, Low Fantasy, and medieval style wargames at just the right time in history. Interesting how things work out.

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Post Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 7:30 pm 
 

MShipley88 wrote:Almost all boys played cops and robbers or cowboys and indians.  The ones who read Tolkien, however, were the ones who went on to play Conan versus Cthulhu.

    A friend of mind criticized the first Lord of the Rings movie for incorporating, "too many fantasy cliches."

    I pointed out to him that it was impossible for Tolkien to utilize "cliches" in his writing...Tolkien is the father of the genre.  Everyone else is copying him.  The imagery, history, races and structure of a medieval fantasy world are his creation...so much so that the current fashion is to be as unlike Tolkien as possible...which is also a nod to his influence.

    Certainly, there were other writers dealing with fantasy material before Tolkien was published...E.R. Eddison (sp?), R.E. Howard and more...  Eddison could even be described as high fantasy, but....

    Aside from the superficial presence of swords and magic, Tolkien and Howard have little in common.  Tolkien brought the concept of the high fantasy quest to the modern mind.  REH (of whom I doubt Tolkien was even aware) was a writer of low fantasy.  His best stories all involve sordid events, amidst ruins, with sub-humans or human degenerates and an atavistic struggle over money and women.  

(Hey...works for me!  No need to apologize.  We could really use REH today, when so much of the fantasy genre has degenerated into a rather cloying stew of secular/feminist/lesbian/wicca/treehugger tripe.)

    REH is uncomfortable with material that rises above low fantasy...in The Hour of the Dragon, for instance, there is a clash of kingdoms involving ancient sorcery, but REH sends his main character off on a series of personal adventures in quest of the usual plot-device/gubbins/object...through ruins and against human degenerates.  Even his final battle scene is essentially a largescale personal combat.  This is low fantasy that barely resembles any of Tolkien's work.

    I admire Howard's work, but he owes the regeneration of his status as a writer to Tolkien's coat tails.  This is not to denegrate REH.  If it had not been for the demand created by Tolkien, even a deserving writer like REH might not have seen the wide paperback distribution that made his character famous.

    D&D is Tolkien, written small because Conan is a lot easier to re-produce on the tabletop than Tolkien's complex characters and large-scale situations.  But all of those hack-n-slash barbarians are battling against a background of elves, dwarves, goblins, orcs, kingdoms, wizards and dragons that are essentially Tolkien's creations.

    I realize I am droning on, so:   As much as I admire the work of Gary Gygax, his creation is destined to be remembered within the context of the Tolkien phenomenon, as is Howard.
   
Mark   8)


Very well said. And a big nod of agreement at

MShipley88 wrote:
(Hey...works for me!  No need to apologize.  We could really use REH today, when so much of the fantasy genre has degenerated into a rather cloying stew of secular/feminist/lesbian/wicca/treehugger tripe.)

Mark   8)


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Post Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 7:32 pm 
 

MShipley88 wrote:REH (of whom I doubt Tolkien was even aware)

Not true, at least according to DeCamp, who claims he spent some memorable afternoons with Tolkien discussing "fantasy" literature.

Tolkien's reaction to REH, as reported by DeCamp: "I quite like much of it."

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Post Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 7:44 pm 
 

MShipley88 wrote:The paraphrase of Stephen King almost certainly comes from his really great book, On Writing.

Indeed. An excellent book ... which contains passages such as:

"A thousand pages of hobbits hasn't been enough for three generations of post-World War II fantasy fans; even when you add in that clumsy, galumphing dirigible of an epilogue, The Silmarillion, it hasn't been enough. Hence Terry Brooks, Piers Anthony, Robert Jordan, the questing rabbits of Watership Down, and half a hundred others. The writers of these books are creating the hobbits they still love and pine for; they are trying to bring Frodo and Sam back from the Grey Havens because Tolkien is no longer around to do it for them."

(emphasis mine, obviously)

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Post Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 7:50 pm 
 

Xaxaxe wrote:
MShipley88 wrote:The paraphrase of Stephen King almost certainly comes from his really great book, On Writing.

Indeed. An excellent book ... which contains passages such as:

"A thousand pages of hobbits hasn't been enough for three generations of post-World War II fantasy fans; even when you add in that clumsy, galumphing dirigible of an epilogue, The Silmarillion, it hasn't been enough. Hence Terry Brooks, Piers Anthony, Robert Jordan, the questing rabbits of Watership Down, and half a hundred others. The writers of these books are creating the hobbits they still love and pine for; they are trying to bring Frodo and Sam back from the Grey Havens because Tolkien is no longer around to do it for them."

(emphasis mine, obviously)


Thank you! And though some have come close to getting them back none have gotten them all the way so far  :(


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Post Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 8:11 pm 
 

Xaxaxe wrote:
MShipley88 wrote:The paraphrase of Stephen King almost certainly comes from his really great book, On Writing.

Indeed. An excellent book ... which contains passages such as:

"A thousand pages of hobbits hasn't been enough for three generations of post-World War II fantasy fans; even when you add in that clumsy, galumphing dirigible of an epilogue, The Silmarillion, it hasn't been enough. Hence Terry Brooks, Piers Anthony, Robert Jordan, the questing rabbits of Watership Down, and half a hundred others. The writers of these books are creating the hobbits they still love and pine for; they are trying to bring Frodo and Sam back from the Grey Havens because Tolkien is no longer around to do it for them."

(emphasis mine, obviously)


I think it's King's book Danse Macabre that has the quote: "My writing is the literary equivalent of a Big Mac"  Gotta love a guy that doesn't take his profession too seriously, plus he's obviously very well read. In fact one of his criticsms of college students in general and would be writers in particular is their ingnorance (either accidental or studied) of the classics in the field, such as Dickens, James, Hardy, Kafka, Tolstoy, Steinbeck, Faulkner, etc.

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Post Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 8:31 pm 
 

This OD&D "alternate-reality" thread over on Dragonsfoot suddenly seems relevant:

http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=15501

MAZES & MINOTAURS
There was no LOTR-inspired D&D. Gygax and Arneson were gaming with Greek armies in the 1970s. Behold Mazes & Minotaurs: roleplaying was born! Download a new edition of that 1972 original game!
http://storygame.free.fr/MAZES.htm


Mazes & Minotaurs is what the first fantasy roleplaying game could have been if its authors had taken their inspiration from Jason & the Argonauts (yes, the 1963 movie with all the cool Ray Harryhausen monsters) and Homer's Odyssey rather than from Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings or Poul Anderson's Three Hearts & Three Lions. In other words, Mazes & Minotaurs is :

- a nostalgic pastiche of early fantasy roleplaying games

- a tongue-in-cheek tribute to old-school gaming

- a complete and fully playable roleplaying game !


(Just to throw this thread a little more off topic...)

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Post Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 8:47 pm 
 

MShipley88 wrote:Certainly, there were other writers dealing with fantasy material before Tolkien was published...E.R. Eddison (sp?)

"The greatest and most convincing writer of 'invented worlds' that I have read" - JRRT

MShipley88 wrote:A friend of mind criticized the first Lord of the Rings movie for incorporating, "too many fantasy cliches."

    I pointed out to him that it was impossible for Tolkien to utilize "cliches" in his writing...Tolkien is the father of the genre. Everyone else is copying him.

Cursed golden rings, wise wizards, shattered swords and epic quests.
Do I really need to list Tolkien's inspirations, down to more obscure ones such as the Alexander myths?

MShipley88 wrote:The imagery, history, races and structure of a medieval fantasy world are his creation...

And pretty-much background fluff in the context of LoTR's plot which is just as well since he has difficulty creating a believable fantasy country or city far less patching those together into a self-sustaining whole. :)

Guess it just as well that whilst D&D plays fantasy-neutral, most participants had a strong preference for low-fantasy and personal agendas.

All of which is still off-topic (here), albeit still an interesting topic of discussion... thx ^^

  


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Post Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 8:53 pm 
 

faro wrote:(There's an article (by EGG?) re. the relative popularity of different periods pre-/post- Chainmail/D&D, somewhere.... Might be in A&E ~#15 but I'd have to double-check).


Perhaps the "A Brief History of the Wargame in the United States" by Gyax in Little Wars Vol. 1 No. 1 (July 1976)?

The entire article is still posted on the Acaeum, here:

viewtopic.php?p=44401&highlight=wars+gygax#44401

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