The Blue Camel
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Post Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 4:29 am 
 

I don't see many people doing what I do. Quality PDFs are very time consuming, especially if you add in OCR. A recent scan I made took eight hours.

You're really bitter about this, aren't you David?

Whether I made PDFs or not, I would still buy stock and place it in my shop. The business practice of buying items and reselling them is a completely different issue.

I have proctically no TSR D&D, and the price of the vast majority of rarities in that market goes way beyond the price of anything I sell. There were probably 5 times the amount of R1's published as there were copies of Seren Ironhand, for example. Both by established and competent writers. Both extremely good adventures. And yet the price of one is more than double the price of the other.

It is not me who is changing the price of non-TSR on line. It is the market. The more people who become aware, and are willing to buy, the greater the competition, and therefor the higher the price.

The law in Scotland is quite clear. It is only illegal to distribute and use. It is not illegal to make or own.


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Post Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 5:23 am 
 

mbassoc2003 wrote:I don't see many people doing what I do. Quality PDFs are very time consuming, especially if you add in OCR. A recent scan I made took eight hours.

Irrelevant in this context, sorry.

mbassoc2003 wrote:You're really bitter about this, aren't you David?

If you say I am, obviously I am. Please don't put words into people's mouths.
Since I work in Criminal Justice, I'm taking a personal interest in the matter, OK? (And that's aside from any discussion re. impact on collecting/market distortion, etc., which is perfectly 'on topic' here - and you started the thread with such a 'complaint', remember).

mbassoc2003 wrote:The law in Scotland is quite clear. It is only illegal to distribute and use. It is not illegal to make or own.

I don't think you have the law quite right, sorry Ian.
(And your previous example of people openly selling copied products is somewhat by-the-by (involving actual sale), but is still countered by the fact that police are raiding, confiscating and prosecuting such cases through court even where the copies were being held by people not directly involved in their sale).

Show us anything from a legal website, citizen's advice bureau, lawyer, etc., to prove that everything you're doing is 100% legal ('in Scotland', if you must).

http://www.patent.gov.uk/copy/indetail/ ... yright.htm

# But if I've bought something, can't I use it however I like?

Just buying a copy of a book, CD, video, computer program, etc. does not necessarily give you the right to make further copies (even for private use) or play or show them in public. The right to do these things will generally remain with the copyright owner, whose permission you would need. You should note that photocopying a work, scanning a work to produce an electronic copy and downloading a copy of a work which is in an electronic form (eg. on a CD-ROM or an on-line database) all involve copying the work so that permission to copy is generally needed.

  

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Post Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 8:16 am 
 

So is your problem that I have a store and stock premium non-TSR rares at high prices? Or that I scan items that I possess? Do you dislike resellers as a whole, or is that price related also?

OK. If we're gonna have a legal discussion, David....

1. I'm not going to admit to doing anything illegal, am I? That would be stupid.

2. In order to prosecute a personal use copyright enfringement case, the Crown Prosecution Service have to have physical proof of illegal use, and/or unauthorised distribution. They also have to have proof that the copyright holder's rights were infringed, which means finding the copyright holder. The CPS will never prosecute a case of personal use PDF making.

3. A copyright holder persuing a private law suit first would have to be aware of what I am doing, and then show a) that I commited a crime (requires physical evidence) and b) that I caused him quantifiable damage.

4. When you say you work in Criminal Justice, what specifically do you do? I mean there is a difference between being a CPS lawyer, a DS in the Police and a security guard at a prison? I'm just curious as to what you actually do?


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Post Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 8:59 am 
 

MShipley88 wrote:
faro wrote:
mbassoc2003 wrote:Do you think my shop is pushing up prices?

Yes.

Are you not happy enough with your illegal .pdfs that you have to turn a profit on those transactions, too?
Most of us around here have to pay to own RPG material, not be paid for that privilege. :)


So far as I know, Ian isn't selling .pdfs...right?

In America, making a copy of an item you own fits under "fair use."  I don't know if you are supposed to destroy the copy if you no longer own the original.  Probably.

But, so long as you aren't selling illegal copies I doubt the FBI is going to knock on your door.

Mark   8)


I am not going to jump into the current fray, nor will I get into the moral issue of it, but actually what Ian is doing is in fact illegal by US standards.  Since I do not have a clue what the laws in the UK are I wont comment about them, but in the US it is pretty clear, its illegal.  

According to the fair use portion of the US copyright law, the owner of a book may make a 1 copy of a book for personal use and personal use only.  The creator of the copy is not allowed to distribute even the one copy created for his use and as a soon as the owner of the book gets rid of the book he is legally obligated to destroy the copy.  By the letter of the law the book owner who is getting rid of the book whether even if he is just giving  the book away must destroy the copy and is not allowed to pass the copy to the new book owner.  Now obviously I can't see anyone getting into any trouble for giving a single copy of the book to the new owner of the original, but that provision must be included in the law to help prevent any mass distributions or other types of potential end arounds that people might try to run through the loophole in the law if it was not there.


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Post Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 9:11 am 
 

If Hasbro, with all their money and resources, cannot prosecute a single individual for selling PDFs on eBay, what are the chances of say The Companions prosecuting an individual for making a personal copy of a book he bought?

Nil? Maybe a little bit higher than Nil?


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Post Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 9:22 am 
 

mbassoc2003 wrote:If Hasbro, with all their money and resources, cannot prosecute a single individual for selling PDFs on eBay, what are the chances of say The Companions prosecuting an individual for making a personal copy of a book he bought?

Nil? Maybe a little bit higher than Nil?


Ian, I am not trying to get into a argument with you, I am just stating the facts. :)  That said though, just because the person who rights you are infringing isn't/cant pursue it, it still doesn't make it okay to break the law.


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Post Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 9:28 am 
 

You know you can't leave here for five minutes without missing all the fun ...

Lets see ... I can only assume Faro = David = Harami ... ?  Whats up with the name change?

Seems to me there is alot of discussion about the impact of PDFs on the price of 'rare' items.  From my perspective (and I think I have a right to my opinion given my collecting habits:-) ) they have absolutely no impact for several reasons:

1. If an item is truely rare then regardless of whether there is readily available PDF versions then collectors will still pay the $ to collect them.  I personally don't give a toss whether there are ST1 PDFs floating around on the Internet.  I still have an original ...

2. I don't collect for resale value.  I collect for sentimental reasons.  If I wish to collect for resale value then I tend to invest in something more lucrative e.g. property, artwork. I find it hard to believe that anyone is getting rich selling either original or PDF versions of D&D products...

3. I don't have any problem with the masses being able to collect PDFs (legally).  I think in all this mad rush to collect rare items we have forgotten that this is about a game.  A game that was ment for everyone to enjoy!

Having said all that I don't condone illegal activity and illegal PDFs probably affect the sale of common items.  

Ian, if I am understanding this discussion properly and the little bit of angst I am seeing from David:

1. You buy items then resale then for a higher value.

2. You make PDFs for your own use of the items you buy.

With regard to 1.  this is common in any market.  The market will only bear what it can bear so good luck to you.

With regard to 2.  I can't see an issue with having a PDF copy of something you own.  Seems like fair use from a moral point of view. In fact it probably saves wear and tear on the originals.  However, it seems that you keep the PDF after selling the original.  Is this correct - my apologies if I have read this thread incorrectly?

This would be like buying DVDs and CDs, copying them then selling the original while keeping the copies so you could continue to use them....  if this is the case, forgetting the legal ramifications, from a moral perspective you would be crossing the line.

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Post Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 9:39 am 
 

mbassoc2003 wrote:If Hasbro, with all their money and resources, cannot prosecute a single individual for selling PDFs on eBay, what are the chances of say The Companions prosecuting an individual for making a personal copy of a book he bought?

Nil? Maybe a little bit higher than Nil?


Ian,

Sounds like there are two separate issues here:

1. The legality of the situation and whether that legaility will be enforced

2. Morals ....

With regard to 1. you are probably correct.  I am sure there are tons of things you can get away with that aren't strictly on the up and up.  Take alook at our old friend Jonb AKA the Game Ediot.

With regard to number 2.  This is something you have to live with.  If you can justify to yourself that what you are doing is fine and not hurting anyone else go for it.  In this particular case I would not feel comfortable taking the same stand as you.   I would see my actions as not only hurting the designer of the product but also damaging my standing with the community I am proud to be part of ...

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Post Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 9:43 am 
 

bclarkie wrote:...  illegal by US standards ....


Ahh ... the good old U S of A.  Center of the legal world  :D

How are you Brian? Well I hope :!:

How has the Acaeum been since I have been away?  Lots of good auctions?

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Post Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 9:56 am 
 

improvstone wrote:1. You buy items then resale then for a higher value.

2. You make PDFs for your own use of the items you buy.

With regard to 1.  this is common in any market.  The market will only bear what it can bear so good luck to you.

With regard to my eBay shop, this is my point exactly.

improvstone wrote:With regard to 2.  I can't see an issue with having a PDF copy of something you own.  Seems like fair use from a moral point of view. In fact it probably saves wear and tear on the originals.  However, it seems that you keep the PDF after selling the original.  Is this correct - my apologies if I have read this thread incorrectly?

For the most part, my stock levels now allow me to retain almost everything I have PDF copies of. I usually have two or three hardcopies of most of the things I have PDFs of. There is the odd item that I no longer have in hardcopy, and while still retaining a PDF copy is clearly morally dubious, it is not illegal under Scottish law provided I do not read it. :lol:   A strange situation that does not apply in England, and I'd be surprised if it applied in any other developed country.

bclarkie wrote:That said though, just because the person who rights you are infringing isn't/cant pursue it, it still doesn't make it okay to break the law.

I can't disagree with that. Until there is legal precident laid down, though, there is just a big grey legal area. In regards the moral issue, morals are a subjective thing.

Some people thought it is immoral for the UK to attack Iraq and kill Arabs. Some people even believe it is illegal. The first is a purely subjective notion based on an individuals view point, and completely irrelevant to the real world, and the second is only decided when legal precident is laid down by the courts.


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Post Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 11:12 am 
 

improvstone wrote:
Lets see ... I can only assume Faro = David = Harami ... ?  Whats up with the name change?


I missed this too for a while - threw me off. I thought Harami had stopped posting and Faro was someone new.

In February Foulfoot let us start changing our usernames. See:

viewtopic.php?p=45381&highlight=#45381

However, it looks like 'faro' was a new account started in November.
Something to do with a Pharaoh mod?

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Post Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 1:55 pm 
 

zhowar wrote:
improvstone wrote:
Lets see ... I can only assume Faro = David = Harami ... ?  Whats up with the name change?


I missed this too for a while - threw me off. I thought Harami had stopped posting and Faro was someone new.

In February Foulfoot let us start changing our usernames. See:

viewtopic.php?p=45381&highlight=#45381

However, it looks like 'faro' was a new account started in November.
Something to do with a Pharaoh mod?


Originally, Faro's icon was a lighthouse...presumably to refer to the ancient one at Alexandria of roughly the same name.

Mark   8)


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Post Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 1:59 pm 
 

I don't believe that Ian is hurting anyone else financially by keeping .pdf files of stuff he owns/owned.


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Post Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 2:03 pm 
 

Hate to be that guy but is there not already a thread dealing with the legality of PDFs. I keep hoping to see information on the Blue Camel, the Green Fairy or even the yellow submarine not yet another PDF discussion.

And for the record I want to fall on the side that having a PDF not purchased as a legal PDF is theft. It is no different than downloading an MP3 of an album you dont have off a file sharing site. Going under the premise that I bought it and then sold it but can still keep the copy is no different than buying a CD from a store and buring it. If someone wants to do something illegal do it and keep it too yourself please dont try defending it.


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Post Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 2:15 pm 
 

improvstone wrote:If you can justify to yourself that what you are doing is fine and not hurting anyone else go for it.  In this particular case I would not feel comfortable taking the same stand as you.   I would see my actions as not only hurting the designer of the product but also damaging my standing with the community I am proud to be part of ...

I offer my services to copyright holders for free. I actively track down copyright holders and offer them a superior product to the majority of the non-DTP PDFs available online. They are then able to sell, reprint, edit or whatever, and it costs them neither time nor money.

We live in a digital age. Both the technology and software are there to provide good quality digital documentation from any source, and yet the quality of the product offered online is laughable. For that reason people ignore the medium as something that's 'okay if you just want a play copy'. They are offerred nothing else.

I don't think making PDFs for personal use has any impact on the market place what-so-ever. These are for personal use, and for the use of the copyright holder alone.

Google, Amazon, The Brittish Library, and more than a dozen other institutions in the UK and US are digitising written content with absolutely no regard to copyright ownership. Not for personal use, but for publication (in chunks) online. To push up their sales.

When I write a letter to my bank, it is scanned and attached to my account. I have not consented to this. When I send documents to a main contractor they are photocopied, printed, amended, and so on. I don't consent to this.

One wonders whether David would sue his bank if he discoverred they had digital copies of his correspodence on file? As a awyer that would be quite interesteing. As a policemand, maybe they'd take him seriously, as a prison guard, meybe they'd have a laugh.


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Post Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 2:23 pm 
 

improvstone wrote:
bclarkie wrote:...  illegal by US standards ....


Ahh ... the good old U S of A.  Center of the legal world  :D

How are you Brian? Well I hope :!:

How has the Acaeum been since I have been away?  Lots of good auctions?


Hiya Mike good to see you around again. :)   Thing have been interesting to say the least.  Lets see since you have been around, Stormber did another round of acutions of RJK original material.  THrough that we found out there were duplicates of somethings that were not disclosed before:

viewtopic.php?t=3709

THis of course has led to some tension amongst several members.

We had an ST1 come up by an Acaeum member that ended up flaming out and led to TFM leaving:

viewtopic.php?t=3731

This also has led to some further tension.

Tim Kask has joined us and sold some stuff bith privately and on EBay:

viewtopic.php?t=3684

viewtopic.php?t=3732

viewtopic.php?t=3766

viewtopic.php?t=3710

This led to both some fun and some tension.  :)

There have been a couple of recent woodgrain auctions up(One is still up)

viewtopic.php?t=3816

viewtopic.php?t=3801

Frank<Deadlord> Has been buying up lots of illegal pdfs. :wink:

viewtopic.php?t=348&start=1040

Alan<Killjoy32> went to Africa, ran a marathon or 2 in the desert, hurt himself a bit and returned home:

viewtopic.php?t=3294

This of course led to both some fun and some tension by Al.

We also have a newer member posting that is a shiller. :roll:  So to wrap things up it has been pretty tense around here the last few months overall, but we have had some fun as well. :lol:   Truthfully, its been relatively quiet around here the last few weeks, particularly after the ST1 flameout, it just hasn't been the same. :?

<edit> David has in fact been posting under his new ID faro and buying lots of (expensive  8O )stuff recently too.  His CC companies are loving him right now. :wink:


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Post Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 2:48 pm 
 

As for those FASA Thieves World publications that were recently on Ebay:

  I decided not to go for them even though they are on my non-TSR list.  I recall looking at one of them years ago and thinking that they sucked.

   I am still an emotional collector.  Value to others affects me only when it drives up or down the prices of what is valuable to me.  Right now, I am in the early stages of a "badguy" campaign in which I have forced my players into the role of PC villains.  So, the various "thieves" publications have proven quite useful.

Mark   8)


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Post Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 3:31 pm 
 

I have those 3 FASA modules for TW..how much do they usually go for? (or how much did they go for on Ebay?)

ShaneG.

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Post Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 4:52 pm 
 

bclarkie wrote: We also have a newer member posting that is a shiller. :roll:


Ah...I take it that is something you were referring to in your cryptic post in the ST1 thread... :idea:

 Truthfully, its been relatively quiet around here the last few weeks, particularly after the ST1 flameout, it just hasn't been the same. :?


Yeah, I was wondering about that. But then again it was tax-time last weekend (here in the USA). There certainly seems to be a lot more posting today than there was last weekend.

Also, are we losing some posting to Dragonsfoot? Lots of Acaeum members over there lately.

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Post Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 4:58 pm 
 

zhowar wrote:
bclarkie wrote: We also have a newer member posting that is a shiller. :roll:


Ah...I take it that is something you were referring to in your cryptic post in the ST1 thread... :idea:


Actually no. :)   Check page 25 of the shady dealers thread...............


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