Domesday Book: Research Report • Page 3 • Collecting General

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Domesday Book: Research Report
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Busman
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Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 2:55 am

Looking over the notes from Frank, it looks like most of the important articles relating directly to the hobby were written by Gary. Has anyone contacted his wife about finding someway to publish these documents (even just the text of it) before they become lost forever?

mbassoc2003
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Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 9:06 am

Each of us has a responsibility to preserve and carry forward, not only what we value in our past, but also those things we do not. For that very reason, and on recognition that society cannot rely upon its authors and artists to do so, every single nation, every single academic institution, and every single national library and public body, of practically every country on the planet implements a process of copying, preserving, digitizing and safeguarding documents of all kinds for future generations.

If we as a society believe there is a danger of loss, we have a moral compunction to preserve that information, regardless of the wishes or desires of the artist.

That said, we must ensure that we uphold and preserve the rights and property of creative individuals. We should do nothing to detract from either the value of their work, or the message we send current and future authors and artists. Work has to be preserved WITHOUT compromising the integrity or personal property of the author.

So, copy and preserve for the future. But take responsibility as a historian for the rights and concerns of the author. Preserve, but do not share. Do not publish. Guard the works and make sure it lives on, because whilst no one here has a right to see these rare works, everyone has a right to expect them to be preserved and safeguarded.

So

This week I've been mostly eating . . . The white ones with the little red flecks in them.

Busman
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Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 8:29 pm

I agree mbassoc, preservation is the priority and preservation alone doesn't include publishing.

That said, finding a way to publish these prototype documents with the permission of the current copyright holder seems like a worthy goal as well.

Additionally, I think this is the type of information that is on some levels deserving of public access, of research and information sharing.

As we know from early editions of D&D, EGG and even TSR until later weren't fans of hard copyrights, especially where it interfered with the game and fun. By all accounts I've heard EGG was always annoyed at having to remove LOTR references. And his openness with development of early versions of the Thief character and other ideas. My interpretation is he was more of the academic mind than the business mind on these sorts of things; openness with ideas. Maybe this changed over the years with the acquisition of money, but I've never heard that he was affected like that.

I've got an avenue of approach on this. I'll fire off an email this week and see if there's anything I can dislodge.

Rakeesh sah Tarna
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Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 9:27 pm

Busman wrote:As we know from early editions of D&D, EGG and even TSR until later weren't fans of hard copyrights

not so at all where do you get that idea?? tsr especially gary very very protective of ipr right from start + threatened to sue others even for taking idea of any other rpg

Busman
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Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 12:28 am

Rakeesh sah Tarna wrote:not so at all where do you get that idea?? tsr especially gary very very protective of ipr right from start + threatened to sue others even for taking idea of any other rpg

His treatment of other IPs in both OD&D and D&DG. His sharing of ideas with other magazines/clubs for ideas about D&D. TSRs authorizing JG to make supplements (which I know, Gary later regretted due to the perceived quality of the products (iirc the reason)). And I don't recall the Cease and Desist orders coming until well later. One could argue his treatment of Dave and the creation of AD&D are signs to the contrary. Again, I didn't know the man, personally, only met him at a con on a couple of occasions when he was out living in LA. And maybe money or a hit changed his ideas, but his and TSRs actions at the beginning were of people who didn't put a lot of value on copyright.

Busman
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Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 12:31 am

In any case, this isn't really the thrust of my original post.

Which is, are those who have some of the last remaining copies taking preservation procedures to insure they aren't lost for all time.

And secondly, has anyone contacted Mrs. Gygax about getting permission to reprint or republish his articles from the Domesday book, which seem to comprise the majority of historically relevant articles that were in that book (again, from Frank's account, since I haven't seen them).

Rakeesh sah Tarna
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Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 12:50 am

Busman wrote:And I don't recall the Cease and Desist orders coming until well later.

right at start for ken st. andre + others
are you sourcing information from tsr pubs mostly??

Busman wrote:One could argue his treatment of Dave and the creation of AD&D are signs to the contrary.

good example from later yes + more vs blackmoor group

Busman wrote:Again, I didn't know the man, personally, only met him at a con on a couple of occasions when he was out living in LA. And maybe money or a hit changed his ideas, but his and TSRs actions at the beginning were of people who didn't put a lot of value on copyright

again does not tally with ripping up illegal copies at cons + warning zine editors + other rants

did put value on copyright =/= had enough $$ for lawyers to do what wished to pursue that

Busman wrote:Which is, are those who have some of the last remaining copies taking preservation procedures to insure they aren't lost for all time.

agreed but wont be lost as stormber has copies + no need for more using ians line of debate which you agreed

Busman wrote:And secondly, has anyone contacted Mrs. Gygax about getting permission to reprint or republish his articles from the Domesday book, which seem to comprise the majority of historically relevant articles that were in that book (again, from Frank's account, since I haven't seen them).

domesday book does not have revelations afaik much above a copy of chainmail. are more important developments in rpg elsewhere

gyg
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Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 1:01 am

Rakeesh sah Tarna wrote:agreed but wont be lost as stormber has copies + no need for any more using ians line of debate which you agreed

Yep, think this about sums it up. While I agree that it is hugely important that nothing be lost I don't think that it is necesary (or even acceptable) that much of this 'archive/personal' stuff is freely available.
While that may seem a bit odd, it doesn't feel right to me that really important stuff can go to any Tom Dick or Harry!!

You can never have too much of something you didn't need in the first place.

mbassoc2003
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Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 3:11 am

Well, if PS has copies then there you are.
With all these exceptionally rare and on occasions valuable (Planes of Existance for example which IMO is worth many times what was paid for it), we can only trust that the owners of such thing are responsible enough to preserve and safeguard them, and that they instill that understanding into their potential heirs so that these things are not lost or destroyed in the future.

Try as I might, and with some things, as much as I might desire to do so, I cannot see justification for public possession or ownership of such documents.

This week I've been mostly eating . . . The white ones with the little red flecks in them.

Gnat the Beggar
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Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 10:08 am

mbassoc2003 wrote:...........So, copy and preserve for the future. But take responsibility as a historian for the rights and concerns of the author. Preserve, but do not share. Do not publish. Guard the works and make sure it lives on, because whilst no one here has a right to see these rare works, everyone has a right to expect them to be preserved and safeguarded.

So

I wish to add my two coppers....

I agree no Actual Rights exist for the general public to SEE and therefore appreciate so-called rare works by various artists.
Whether that be a book, a painting, or a rare motorcar....

However, I think that to lock such items inside a vault for the viewing pleasure of only one individual does NOTHING to preserve the general appreciation of that specific item..... certainly NOT for the general public.
I fail to understand what an individual lucky enough to own an Exceedingly rare item that cannot be reproduced (Legally) does for the hobby by never allowing anyone else to appreciate that itemâ€¦.
What exactly are you purporting to preserve in regards to an item that is forever more locked inside a dark vault for none but the owner to enjoy?

Art is (for the most part) created for the public. Not the individual.

And as far as I know, NONE of the many works created by EGG were meant to sit forever more in a dark vault...........
I was never privileged to meet Gary, but what little I know of him, from his various works, books, and the many articles he wrote for publication leads me to feel that locking ANY of his stuff in a vault never to be used, or read by the general public would be the LAST thing he would approve of.

Where is the fun in that?
Even more relevant: This is also a game after all, not just art.

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mbassoc2003
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Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 12:01 pm

This thread has a danger of slipping into one about the politics of collecting and ownership.

If there were a collective body and that body raised capital and invested its capital in rare items, then it's fair to ask for some level of access to those items by members of the collective body. But when an individual ponies up the dough ant takes on the responsibility of custodian, it is a little perverse for the 'have nots' to then ask for access or even sit judgement on those individuals who collect. I am sure that all collectors, given the right circumstances, are willing to share the delights of their collection with fellow collectors, but that should never be 'expected'. After all, if the community as a whole desired a community 'library' or 'museum' of rare works, then let us start the Acaeum Museum Project, raise capital and start buying documents as community property.

This week I've been mostly eating . . . The white ones with the little red flecks in them.

copycat
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Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 12:39 pm

It is my opinion that, for anything to have value, it must be known. If I have a never-before-seen original Magna Carta, for example, and no one knew of its existence... then it is worth something to me, and me alone. However, if it becomes general knowledge that it exists, then it becomes worth so much more -- priceless, in fact.

Of course, I am not beyond the desire to have a museum... except I can't afford the extremes that others can (lucky wealthy people.)

Those who can, don't. Those who should not, do.

Rakeesh sah Tarna
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Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 12:41 pm

Aneoth wrote:And as far as I know, NONE of the many works created by EGG were meant to sit forever more in a dark vault...........

understood but domesday book also problem that is not just egg. dont think ever found out whose system was borrowing in db#7 + taking out others gail only has rights to small fraction if inherited

Aneoth wrote:Even more relevant: This is also a game after all, not just art.

seems to be many people happy to play without owing white boxes

mbassoc2003 wrote:This thread has a danger of slipping into one about the politics of collecting and ownership.

If there were a collective body and that body raised capital and invested its capital in rare items, then it's fair to ask for some level of access to those items by members of the collective body. But when an individual ponies up the dough ant takes on the responsibility of custodian, it is a little perverse for the 'have nots' to then ask for access or even sit judgement on those individuals who collect. I am sure that all collectors, given the right circumstances, are willing to share the delights of their collection with fellow collectors, but that should never be 'expected'. After all, if the community as a whole desired a community 'library' or 'museum' of rare works, then let us start the Acaeum Museum Project, raise capital and start buying documents as community property.

+thx good post + idea as little success getting mainstream museum to take interest
either solution has access problems inevitable but better than locked in bank vaults over world imo

Rakeesh sah Tarna
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Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 12:45 pm

serleran wrote:It is my opinion that, for anything to have value, it must be known.

needs sea change attitude if so. current consensus is sell for highest $$ regardless of who wins + what happens to item as no particular community interest in any history on unique or v rare items. if someone needs item for whatever reason almost without exception has to bid highest. definition of need might vary??

serleran wrote:Of course, I am not beyond the desire to have a museum... except I can't afford the extremes that others can (lucky wealthy people.)

or broken ccs?? :lol:

yay 1k get on politics thread

mbassoc2003
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Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 1:46 pm

No one yet has pointed out that the only guaranteed method of preserving a document, for as long as we can percieve as being the future, is to digitize it and publish it free on the internet. That is the only near cast iron guarantee that the document will survive everything the future holds. Many hands, many copies, and all that.

Not something I can condone or justify in any way, but from a purely academic point of view the internet is an ever present, ever growing, self-sustaining, self-renewing reposetory of information.

That is the other side of this arguement. Public Domain is the safest way to preserve anything except a secret.

This week I've been mostly eating . . . The white ones with the little red flecks in them.

grodog
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Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 6:10 pm

Have any details on the missing DB issues surfaced yet?

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FoulFoot
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Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 9:40 pm

All issues of the Domesday Book (including issue #1) have been located. I have not been sent the details (or cover scans), other than what is already on the website here. That's up to the collectors who have those issues, to decide whether they wish to share that info.

I guess the good news is that no issues have been lost to time.

Foul

beasterbrook
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Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 9:53 pm

that is good news

Brette:)

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