Domesday Book: Research Report
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Post Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 1:18 am 
 

Yes, mailing out the issues to volunteers is probably not a good idea.  Unless they're sent to me, of course.

A better (easier) solution: scan all the pages.  The .jpgs can easily be converted into .pdfs or (via OCR software) into .docs.  If provided with the scans, I'd be happy to convert them.

The problem, of course, is that .pdfs / scans could easily be printed, and voila... "original" copies start appearing on eBay.  I think converting the scans into .docs would be a better idea (and makes the compilation more useful -- searchable / editable), and then destroying the scans afterwards.

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Post Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 3:46 am 
 

Good idea.  I am overly dramatic about the history of the game, but I hate the idea of these things just a leaky pipe away from oblivion.

Mark    :x


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Post Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 1:14 pm 
 

ExTSR wrote:We could simply type in all the contents, verbatim, and compile into modern-day .docs or .pdfs... lotta work, tho.

Maybe I could mail the originals to volunteers and have YOU do it and send 'em back.

::buried with 690 PMs from volunteers within 11.3 minutes::

Okay, forget it, bad idea...

:roll:


You might photocopy them and send them out to volunteers, making sure to remove identifying marks from the photocopies.

Modern-day documents are a good idea, since these can't possibly be passed off as originals.

  


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Post Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 10:43 pm 
 

Howdy Folks,


I'm pretty troubled by the direction this thread has taken. Maybe I am not in the same mind as you all but please hear me out on this.

I'm not even sure if this is the same forum I've belonged to all of these years. PDF's of a rare collectable? Really folks, think about the path you are taking :!:

The material is all copyrighted for 1st publication rights. The IFW is no more and neither is the 'Society. All of the material reverts back to the original authors in any case.

This is the same path of the Dragon Magazine and White Dwarf compilation. The legal tangles of those particular attempts should be a lesson.

Just because something is rare or perceived as important for research it shouldn't give us justification to run roughshod over copyrights. Whether legally valid or not, this material is the hard work of a number of folks and should be respected as such.

This is not to say some of this material could be printed by gaining the author's permission or that relevant portions of articles could be published for research purposes. But this wholesale savaging of copyrights astounds me. When have we ever condoned such behavior here?

As with any collectable of this nature there are always those who have them and those who don't. It is up to those of us who have them to provide the research to those who don't. Frank has a set and I have a set. Frank has contributed that information here and so have I. Frank has also gone to the degree of creating the concept of a reference museum for such works.

I personally have been hard at work creating a resource that will fill the need for such research in spades. Thus, there are forces hard at work at preserving and analyzing this information for us all to enjoy. There is no immediate need to make an emergency project to disseminate these documents.

Finally, I have talked to King Rob I personally about all of this and he quite rightly said, "I am vehemently against it." Collectability issues aside, King Rob I is against copyright infringement (especially of his material!).


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Post Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 10:52 pm 
 

Well, I will second the motion against copying/pdfing the material, even though I have as of yet to speak up.  :?    Even if Rob Kuntz was in fact for it, I would have issues with it anyway.  I am not much into fakes, copies and pdfs(as previously stated many times), so this should come of no surprise.  Just my $.02 as always, so feel free to flame away. :)


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Post Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 10:56 pm 
 

I think there was an unspoken assumption that before proceeding on it, we of course would have sought out the permission of Rob and Gary (I assume those are the copyright owners).

Since you have already spoken to Rob about it, and he seems dead-set against it, then I suppose the project is dead in the water.  Though I don't think we were ready to begin offering proposals to the authors yet; we're sort of brainstorming here.  At least, that was my perception, and apologies to all concerned if it seemed otherwise.

Rob's welcome to come here to discuss it all further, of course -- I'd be very surprised if he wasn't at least willing to entertain the idea of rolling out a Domesday compilation project, maybe even via his Kenzer company.  Please convey to him that the intention here is not to run "roughshod" over his copyrights, by any means.

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Post Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 4:41 pm 
 

Remember that this discussion is in the context of what is "practical and legal."  There is no intention of copyright infringement.  The context here is preservation and the discussion has been strictly about how that could be legally accomplished.

   The loss of these invaluable materials is almost inevitable if some sort of preservation effort is not made.  35 years is actually a very short span in the life of a rare document.  Survival for a second 35 years becomes increasingly problematic if these types of materials do not find their way into museum or university libraries.

   If nothing else, as I understand copyright laws, the owner of one of these publications would have the right to make a single copy of the materials for his own fair use.  Unless I am missing some other point, this seems like a wise action.

   Rob Kuntz should consider the option of a compilation of these publications, just as he should consider himself an invaluable historical resource.  This becomes even more true when the loss of Gary Gygax seems imminent.

    Certainly, there would be a profit to be made for Mr. Kuntz or others from publication of a compilation.  

Mark   8)


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Post Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 4:48 pm 
 

MShipley88 wrote: If nothing else, as I understand copyright laws, the owner of one of these publications would have the right to make a single copy of the materials for his own fair use.  Unless I am missing some other point, this seems like a wise action.


The key being your own fair use. That means that you and only you may use the copied document. It is not leagal for you to give that copy away or sell it.  :)  Also, once you no longer own said original document it is your legal responsibility to destroy the copy.

MShipley88 wrote:Rob Kuntz should consider the option of a compilation of these publications, just as he should consider himself an invaluable historical resource.  This becomes even more true when the loss of Gary Gygax seems imminent.

    Certainly, there would be a profit to be made for Mr. Kuntz or others from publication of a compilation.  

Mark   8)


As far as RJK, its his material and he should do with it as he pleases one way or another. I can see where if this material is in fact reproduce leagaly with his okay that there would be a good amount of interest, so it would make sense.  FWIW, I am all for the research aspect of what is intended, I think that is defintely a good thing, however making copies of said documents either in hard copy or electric files and passing them around, particualrly without the copyright owners permission, is defintely not the way to do it.  As always my $.02. :)


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Post Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 5:36 pm 
 

The Collector's Trove wrote:Finally, I have talked to King Rob I personally about all of this and he quite rightly said, "I am vehemently against it." Collectability issues aside, King Rob I is against copyright infringement (especially of his material!).

I'm confused.  What precisely was Rob against?  

Don't say copyright infringement, that's a no-brainer.  I hope we're all against copyright infringement!

I'm not really sure where this turned into a copyright issue, anyway.  I'd hoped the legal copyright holder would want to produce a compilation of such a work before it's lost to time.  If they're not interested, it's out of our hands.  

(Though I think there is some sneaky reference in copyright law to "archival" copies, whatever that means...you'd probably have to be a library, I'm not sure.  :? )

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Post Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 6:04 pm 
 

MShipley88 wrote:Rob Kuntz should consider the option of a compilation of these publications, just as he should consider himself an invaluable historical resource.  This becomes even more true when the loss of Gary Gygax seems imminent.


Don't mean to be morbid, but I hope there is a trustworthy mechanism in place to secure all of Gary's papers and documents for posterity when we lose him.   :(

  

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Post Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 6:25 pm 
 

VermilionFire wrote:I hope there is a trustworthy mechanism in place to secure all of Gary's papers and documents for posterity



There is not, as far as I know. He's thinking about his Estate Sale as a means to provide for his family after he's gone. I hope to advise whoever does it, as I'm both an authority and a Friend Of The Family, but you never know what'll happen.

So y'all better save up or be ready to get mortgages.
In about 20 years, of course.

  


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Post Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 6:39 pm 
 

ExTSR wrote:
VermilionFire wrote:I hope there is a trustworthy mechanism in place to secure all of Gary's papers and documents for posterity


So y'all better save up or be ready to get mortgages.
In about 20 years, of course.


I sure do hope that is the case. :)  *<crosses fingers>*


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Post Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 7:30 pm 
 

ExTSR wrote:In about 20 years, of course.

*nods; hoping that long, anyhow...*

  

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Post Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 12:39 am 
 

One other thing the classic game writers should think about.....the rules regarding length of copyright and renewal of copyright.

   Consider the example of Robert E. Howard's work.  His work was inherited by his father and passed from his father to his father's friends after death.  

   Despite warnings from Glenn Lord (and presumably others) Dr. Howard did not act to protect the copyright on a surprisingly large amount of his son's work and the following heirs did not really understand or appreciate what they had.  Thus, many of REH's stories and poems have long since passed into the public domain.

   I am no lawyer, but it would be worth it to find out the exact rules and make sure your heirs know how to protect this legacy.

Mark   8)


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Post Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 9:45 am 
 

All of Gary's intellectual property since he left TSR belongs to Trigee Enterprises Company. So these copyrights will expire in 95 years. If he had retained the copyrights personally, they would expire 70 years after his death. This is the current U.S. law. I would expect the lifetime of corporate copyrights to get even longer soon (namely, when "Steamboat Willie" is about to enter the public domain :roll:).

  

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Post Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 12:59 am 
 

I would really like to hear more about the Castle and Crusade Society.  I would like to hear the anecdotes about the old members and some incidents from those days.

    The problem with such a document being out of print is that such a rare document is also out of reach.  I cannot even look at the cover or read a fragment of an article.  Until I can read a copy in the Bodelian Library (wearing white rubber gloves) I won't know what it says.   :cry:

Mark


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Post Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 4:51 pm 
 

ExTSR wrote:We could simply type in all the contents, verbatim, and compile into modern-day .docs or .pdfs... lotta work, tho.

I've never actually seen an issue of DB. How many pages of text are we talking about? I know that I would love some sort of copy, at least of the issues pertaining to the development of OD&D. Maybe this isn't such a bad idea...

EDIT: I posted this before I realized that this thread had gone onto page #2. Clearly, if the creators don't want this preserved I wouldn't vote to reproduce it. From an academic standpoint (as well as intellectual curiosity) it saddens me to know that I'll probably never get to read this, but I understand.  :cry:


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Post Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 3:56 pm 
 

I am bringing up the Domesday Book discussion again because I want to know what else those in contact with Rob Kuntz might know.

   Does he have any thoughts on a reprint project?

Mark   :?


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Post Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 4:03 pm 
 

MShipley88 wrote:I am bringing up the Domesday Book discussion again because I want to know what else those in contact with Rob Kuntz might know.

   Does he have any thoughts on a reprint project?

Mark   :?


Mark,
  You can always go ahead and contact him yourself on his board. :wink:   Rob is a good guy.  His board is here:

http://p085.ezboard.com/bpiedpiperpublishing


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Post Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 11:31 pm 
 

Mark, if you have Qs you can certainly ask Rob directly; he and I chat a few times a month, and he also chats with Paul Stormberg frequently.


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