Record call of Cthulhu Rules price...
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Post Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 2:39 pm 
 

Howdy all,


David seems to think I was involved in some reprehensible act of nefarious chicanery. Not so.

I took a jumbled set of photocopies, mss., carbon copies, letters, memos, and notes that filled a copier box and attempted to make sense of them in terms of an auction.

I laid them out and organized them into their most logical units. I called Steve several times and emailed him with questions. We spent long hours on the phone figuring out what was what.

The items I thought would draw the most interest were placed into their own lots. The items that were not obviously as saleable were lumped together into a single lot.

I did not once, ever think or act upon the thoughts David ascribes to my auctions. That is, I did not ever think, "If I take these pages out of context I can fool people into thinking they are something they are not and I can get more money for Steve". Never.

David, if you had cared so much for the history of Steve Marsh's involvement in RPG's why didn't you seek him out? The fact is you likely neither cared nor knew of Steve's tremendous impact on the various stages of RPG history. I daresay, not any of us knew the true depth of Steve's involvement in RPG's until the auctions were brought to the public.

I am a solid member of this community and have been so for a long time. I am not going away. I will continue to contribute to this community in a positive way. Your future here I cannot predict, as have you left in a huff previously and have only returned to continue your irritant style of debate and discussion.

When I was presenting my DMG research, I often felt attacked, insulted, and accused by you. Here I had spent considerable time and effort researching a new discovery, only to be subjected to your chiding and left handed "compliments". So too you have assaulted other volunteers on this site, again insinuating with your left handed comments and outright accusations of them and myself having some ulterior self-serving motive. You have also used this tactic against, Scott, the guy responsible for this site being here in the first place.

I think you have a paranoid personality that ascribes misdeeds and maelific behaviour where there is none.

You have a singular ability for research and persistence, yet you use it to destroy and deface. If you could turn it toward building and enhancing this community you would certainly be a pillar herein.


Futures Bright,

Paul


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Post Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 5:27 am 
 

PaulofCthulhu wrote:I was the gent who said that if I won, I would have sought to release it as a PDF. As an advertised American Gothic It would have been nice to share.
Paul

I agree with our British friend. If I had some really rare documents, I'd scan them and after I'd sell them. I'm sure their value wouldn't be diminished because collectors like original items and not copies or reprints. Unfortunately, I have none so far  :? , unless Italian gaming documents count  :wink:

  

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Post Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 10:18 am 
 

Sotterraneo wrote:
PaulofCthulhu wrote:I was the gent who said that if I won, I would have sought to release it as a PDF. As an advertised American Gothic It would have been nice to share.
Paul

I agree with our British friend. If I had some really rare documents, I'd scan them and after I'd sell them. I'm sure their value wouldn't be diminished because collectors like original items and not copies or reprints. Unfortunately, I have none so far :? , unless Italian gaming documents count :wink:


Ciro, I'm afraid Italian gaming documents pale (slightly) by comparison. Let's say they are like one Kobold against one Ancient Red Dragon.

 YIM  

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Post Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 2:32 pm 
 

Sotterraneo wrote: If I had some really rare documents, I'd scan them and after I'd sell them.

Sell THE ORIGINALS I mean  :D  8O  :wink:

  


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Post Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2005 2:38 am 
 

I've read through this and a few other posts regarding this topic, I have also started to type this post on several other occasions but stopped and read again before deciding to post the following. Reputations are on the line on both sides of the issue.

David,

In laymans terms is what you're saying is that these "Manuscripts" are not manuscripts at all but part of a play-by-mail game or the like? hence "issues of the curpert text? And these pages were just yanked out of context and proclaimed "manuscripts"? And if I were to mail them to you they would fill in the gaps in the "extra stuff" you won?

My only problem with this is if their not "manuscripts" in the sense of the word wouldn't the writer "Stephen R. Marsh" the second signature on the Certificate-of-Authenticity knows this? Red letters on the top of both of the letters we have state "Pre-Call-of-Cthulhu "Original" manuscript" and "Manuscript(single page) for Mystic Class(Foundation of Psionics).

Description of Mystic "Manuscript"

at top: page three

Mystic template like OD&D fighter, thief, etc. 1st - 9th+ level.

Shiddhe? Major and Minor Skills.

There are two paragraphs at the bottom of the page:

All of these are gained at random. Anthything used to shift which gained by more than -/* one will offend the referee. This is a different listing than the traditional, the EW, and my previous but it works better. One should notice that there is no mention of psychic attack/defense in conjunction with this class. That practically belongs to Gary Gyagax's Divine class and had nothing to do with the mystics as they were developed.

This is all for this issue. Subsequent issues will include legends, history, lore, monsters never before lurking in wait and more character classes. Probable will be a character class an issue (or more) depending on demand. Pending release are Warrior Priest, Lightwalkers, Salamanders, Thoughtcrafters, my assassin module, my variation of divines (but only after at least two others have generated their own ideas), varied artifacts and player listings. (assuming I get any). If you have a character class you want to enter just send me the rules and I'm game to let you play it.

yours

Steve Marsh


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Post Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2005 4:18 pm 
 

Heya, Mike.

Don't think I can provide $3,000+ "value for money" on this post, but will give it a try...

invincibleoverlord wrote:David,

In laymans terms is what you're saying is that these "Manuscripts" are not manuscripts at all but part of a play-by-mail game or the like? hence "issues of the curpert text? And these pages were just yanked out of context and proclaimed "manuscripts"? And if I were to mail them to you they would fill in the gaps in the "extra stuff" you won?

Or vice versa. Yes, with regards the "Cupric Text" pages, anyhow. (There's a lot more than "just those" in the remaining "misc materials"...).

They're still "typed manuscripts" in that they're Steve Marsh's originals for the 'zine he produced to run alongside his PBM.
However, neither of those two lots were originally intended as "self-sustaining items" in their own right and in the case of the "Pre-Call of Cthulhu Original Manuscript", none of the classes/monsters relate to "American Gothic", since that mention is of the idea as an "aside" from Steve, offering to play such a game; hence the "Just an offer" comment at the end of that paragraph.
These monsters/classes are all "accounted" for elsewhere in Steve's PBM and previous work, as noted.
(See also below for the page order & further comments).

invincibleoverlord wrote:My only problem with this is if their not "manuscripts" in the sense of the word wouldn't the writer "Stephen R. Marsh" the second signature on the Certificate-of-Authenticity knows this? Red letters on the top of both of the letters we have state "Pre-Call-of-Cthulhu "Original" manuscript" and "Manuscript(single page) for Mystic Class(Foundation of Psionics).

Thank you for reiterating that point for me, Mike.
Anyone buying these lots, past or future, is as likely to be paying for that description on the certificate of authenticity regardless of the actual contents. And without the other evidence to piece together the original context there would have been little more to say on that. Agreed?

The descriptions are, and contain, misrepresentations: deliberate or not is incidental from the p.o.v. of the actual items and their "historical context".

You'd have to ask Paul and Steve, but at a guess Paul may have sent questions to Steve, but not forwarded scans or otherwise made ample reference to the "Cupric Text" context (which is clear enough to myself, and should have been at least as clear to someone else with all the pages in front of them), rather than any documentation (in the latter case) dating from after he was back in touch with Sandy Petersen, IRL (1979).
*
From Steve's perspective, I know I'd be more than a bit fuzzy if someone asked me questions about stuff I'd written twenty-odd years ago and committed to the "memory hole" after many bad experiences.
I'd then have expected Paul to have sent the certificates to Steve for signing, without having seen the "originals" again.

invincibleoverlord wrote:Description of Mystic "Manuscript"

at top: page three

Mystic template like OD&D fighter, thief, etc. 1st - 9th+ level.

Shiddhe? Major and Minor Skills.

There are two paragraphs at the bottom of the page:

All of these are gained at random. Anthything used to shift which gained by more than -/* one will offend the referee. This is a different listing than the traditional, the EW, and my previous but it works better. One should notice that there is no mention of psychic attack/defense in conjunction with this class. That practically belongs to Gary Gyagax's Divine class and had nothing to do with the mystics as they were developed.

This is all for this issue. Subsequent issues will include legends, history, lore, monsters never before lurking in wait and more character classes. Probable will be a character class an issue (or more) depending on demand. Pending release are Warrior Priest, Lightwalkers, Salamanders, Thoughtcrafters, my assassin module, my variation of divines (but only after at least two others have generated their own ideas), varied artifacts and player listings. (assuming I get any). If you have a character class you want to enter just send me the rules and I'm game to let you play it.

yours

Steve Marsh

Thank you for the transcription. Appreciated! :)
(Explains the hook into Gary's "Divine" class in the auction description, too?).

Yup, there's the lead into the Lightwalkers, Salamanders and Mycenaean Thoughtcrafters in the "next issue" (your "Pre-Call of Cthulhu Original Manuscript 1977").
"Pending release" means "pending release in a PBM context, of course. Many/most of the others were also described or referred to elsewhere in Steve's notes, before.
The legends and lore are detailed further, later in the installment pages...

Steve was very "open" with what sorts of parties/classes were open for play in his PBM, btw.

(I'd have to double-check, but the "enhanced" psionics ideas in Steve's "Psychic" character class may predate that "Mystic" rewrite, rather than be a variant on divines/Steve's mystics, per above).

===

Don't know whether you were following the thread over on Sorry, we couldn't find what you're looking for... , or else spotted the scans I posted on The Acaeum, previously, but the printing order for the Cupric Text installment pages is as follows:

(first issue; page 1)
- was going to do Lightwalkers here... Did Philosophers instead.
Image

(first issue; page 2)
- Lightwalkers now in next issue...
Image
- padding space before the next page, which contains the Mystic rules

(first issue; page 3)
<your "D&D Original Ms. Psionics Eldritch Wizardry">
- with lead into "Warrior Priest, Lightwalkers, Salamanders, Thoughtcrafters..." etc. in "next issue"

(second issue; pages 1-5)
<your "Pre-Call of Cthulhu Original Manuscript 1977">

(third issue; page 1)
- Some "legends and lore"... City of the Revenaunt background (plus others).
Image
- Silverhand the lich (per Ian's scenario) follows later in the "Cupric Text"s
Image
, etc.

===

Hope that makes things a bit clearer, Mike?

Am only trying to piece things together from what I have here, but has meshed together well, thus far (plus all the hooks into Mike <improvstone>'s "Planes" material, including the "behind the scenes" matters re. publication, etc.).


Best wishes,
David.

  


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Post Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2005 3:57 am 
 

harami wrote:

They're still "typed manuscripts" in that they're Steve Marsh's originals for the 'zine he produced to run alongside his PBM.
However, neither of those two lots were originally intended as "self-sustaining items" in their own right and in the case of the "Pre-Call of Cthulhu Original Manuscript", none of the classes/monsters relate to "American Gothic", since that mention is of the idea as an "aside" from Steve, offering to play such a game; hence the "Just an offer" comment at the end of that paragraph.
These monsters/classes are all "accounted" for elsewhere in Steve's PBM and previous work, as noted.
(See also below for the page order & further comments).


invincibleoverlord wrote:
My only problem with this is if their not "manuscripts" in the sense of the word wouldn't the writer "Stephen R. Marsh" the second signature on the Certificate-of-Authenticity knows this? Red letters on the top of both of the letters we have state "Pre-Call-of-Cthulhu "Original" manuscript" and "Manuscript(single page) for Mystic Class(Foundation of Psionics).



Thank you for reiterating that point for me, Mike.
Anyone buying these lots, past or future, is as likely to be paying for that description on the certificate of authenticity regardless of the actual contents. And without the other evidence to piece together the original context there would have been little more to say on that. Agreed?


According to definition like you said they are "manuscripts".

1. A book, document, or other composition written by hand.
2. A typewritten or handwritten version of a book, an article, a document, or other work, especially the author's own copy, prepared and submitted for publication in print.


And yes I'd also have to agree these items can't be exactly referred to by titles of the Certificates-of-Authenticity.

They should read more like;

"Original Manuscript for Issue 2 of the Cupric Text Containing the First Mention of a Game Called "American Gothic" an Idea that Lead to the Development of the CoC Role-Playing Game"

and

"Original Manuscript Page 3 of Issue 1 of the Curpric Text Containing the "Mystic Class" which Helped in the Development of Psionics"

So the question at hand, is there "Shell Game" going on here?

I don't think so, I feel Paul made an honest mistake/misinterpretation. Why? Why else would he also auction off the rest of the lot if he was trying to pull something? If I were up to some tomfoolery I'd have ditched the rest of the "manuscripts", and Paul is an intelligent guy and obviously deeply involved in our scene. I mean come on;....I've personally dealt with Paul on MANY transactions, and all were top-notch professional deals.

If I had to guess I'd say Paul had all these papers out in front of him which mind us was more than half of the auctions and then sort through it all. And after many fun filled hours/days of sorting he just misinterpreted exactly what he was looking at. Pulling out "KEY" elements among the papers. Then like you said after corresponding with Stephen called them what they are "Manuscripts" (old typed pages) of original RPG ideas.

Are there any other papers from the auction in question?

And as far as what does a mention of "American Gothic" have to do with
a "real" manuscript of a pre-CoC RPG?

Does Paul know much about CoC? I don't, and if I came across a sentence like "A new type of game called American Gothic, where Lovecraftian monsters lurked", and I inquired Stephen about it, and he said something like "Oh, AG that was the pre-CoC game" I may think manuscript as well not knowing the monsters and such.

Don't know whether you were following the thread over on Sorry, we couldn't find what you're looking for... 76 , or else spotted the scans I posted on The Acaeum, previously, but the printing order for the Cupric Text installment pages is as follows:


:D :lol: I'm famous....ummmm....Infamous! :twisted:


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Post Posted: Sun May 07, 2006 1:36 pm 
 

bclarkie wrote:I actually really appreciate David's insights and his passion for the historical findings.  I just think that sometimes he doesn't realize that by trying to prove his point, that he is being harsh with those that he is attemting to help.  :D

:)

Yes, that was appreciated, Brian; but I was also trying to prevent the likes of the following, a few years down the line (written from wishful-thinking interpretation, rather than the facts);
Sorry, we couldn't find what you're looking for...
Sorry, we couldn't find what you're looking for...

If direct questions and comments were the only way to receive direct responses, that's a "necessary evil" I've had to live with... If it were not for those, however, we'd still be ignorant to the facts on this and other related material in those auctions.
(Things have very much moved on since then, anyhow).

  


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Post Posted: Sun May 07, 2006 2:07 pm 
 

Wow, is this a blast from the past. 8O  This whole thing troubles me now though.  How is it that they are now offering a free pdf of the auction lot that Mike won.  I am gathering that he has provided them with the material which is fine, but it is not even watermarked or produced in a way to help prevent forgeries from popping up on Ebay or even privately for that matter. Christ, he even included a pdf of the certificate of aucthenticy for download as well This is very disconcerting to me. :?  Am I missing something here or what.


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Post Posted: Sun May 07, 2006 2:20 pm 
 

Aside, it looks as if Paul has updated the site to reflect your post David. :)


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Post Posted: Sun May 07, 2006 2:41 pm 
 

bclarkie wrote:Aside, it looks as if Paul has updated the site to reflect your post David. :)

And replied. (With thanks to PoC for the rapid p.s.).

Just as well there was that groundwork to point at, though... :?

=
IIRC, Steve Marsh was happy for such material to be released for research, etc. Would have to recheck his original post for the precise context or else seek re-confirmation. (Steve?)

Copying the certificate is an interesting move, though!

  

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Post Posted: Sun May 07, 2006 2:43 pm 
 

bclarkie wrote:Aside, it looks as if Paul has updated the site to reflect your post David. :)


dunno what i think of all that really. should it really be there to d/l in the first place?  :?

doesnt seem right to me somehow. ppl could print it and sell it on which wouldnt be right. as BC said, maybe some sort of strong watermark would have been a good idea so as not to allow exploitation of the item.

Al



  
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