Zenonmarfat wrote in Wilmark Dynasty Estate Acquisition:I am really surprised by some of the comments this thread has attracted.
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If i may jump in: i cannot always understand what others have in mind... i can understand  quite easily what is your feeling and 'sense of frustration' (if i misunderstood, then my apologies but this happened to me several times).
I am also collecting small press items, the more obscure they are the better it is!
Whenever i find and buy 'a gem',  my subconscious dictates to me to look for a confirmation that i made a great finding, that i spent my time and money for something definitely worth and possibily that i was the only one who completely understood the hidden/unexpressed value of the item i bought (and by value, i tend to consider this in historical terms more than economical ones).
This is why i am coming back here to post updates or news... this is likely why some other fellows write on blogs, social networks and so forth... this is likely why you had a disappointing feeling when you didn't get the feedback you were expecting...
Don't get me wrong but we are often not understood, not even by people of the same community!
Ciaoo

Mars wrote in Wilmark Dynasty Estate Acquisition:Hey Richard,

No shade intended and at some point next year, I'll have you and Greg over too.

I'm always happy to talk small press rpgs and also the selling side.  The small press stuff is very niche and it has expanded a bit in recent years - what I am curious about is how much it has expanded.  And of course I want to know what you paid for them too - I know where I would have wanted to be on a bulk purchase of this size.

Maybe I should have added more context but I've been travelling and haven't had too much time.  First, there is always some "discussion" when someone uses the word "rare" and what you are comparing to when using this term.  If you are comparing small press print runs with TSR modules of the same era then certainly these are rare - TSR print runs are likely 100X or more larger. Alternatively, we often group these items into the nonTSR category and these would be rare in comparison to something like most of Mayfair Roleaids.  The other issue is: are you making a comment on availability or number of copies known to exist.  In terms of availability, the sales history has essentially been a single source point of sale {from Days of Knights} but (as far as I know) they have continually been available for sale either through Ebay or their online store. In terms of number of copies, knowing that 200+ exists, probably makes this uncommon (when talking with small press collectors) - I would start breaking out categories something like 21-50 known copies, 11-20, 6-10, 3-5, 2, 1 and then trying to figure out which one of these should be "rare". The Tome of Treasures webpage was likely created sometime in the early 2000s so these types of subjective comments are a bit dated - you can also find some of the sales figures in the forums: https://tomeoftreasures.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3628

In terms of number of copies to move, 100 is a lot and if you are fixing the price at a higher point, this could easily take many years.  A comparable that comes to mind is the John Clegg items that were sold at NTRPG.  Prior to the convention, these items were very rare, and would typically sell for a couple hundred each - a set of the 3 books would have been in the $400-$500 range.  NTRPG ended up getting 100 sets from the author and was selling them for $30.  They didn't sell out at the con and had copies for sale for months later - posted on the forum, Mike has a comment that says there were about 40 distinct buyers.  With the Wilmark items having been more accessible in the past and having a higher price point, its very possible you will still have copies 10 years from now.  You get a good bump of sales now that they are back in the focus, this then turns into some kind of stable state of selling X copies a year or stopping sales and reigniting later, etc.

Its great to see these back up and I've been watching your sales for a couple weeks now (before you posted here).  I'm curious how it all turns out and to see where the market is at.  I've been in a bit of a downsizing mode lately and have sold off a few small press items from my collection - such as What Price Glory?! and Infernax of Spells and Necromancy, etc.  All the best, Mark

Thanks for the invite Mark and I look forward to discussing many collecting topics with you. We can only learn and grow through discourse.

I've said my piece about Wilmark Dynasty and frankly, I'm done with it. Wilmark Dynasty is in my possession, and if anyone desires a shrinkwrapped copy directly acquired from the estate with provenance, they have my selling details. It was my misguided idea in the first place to think that people here would be interested.

I'd just like to steer this thread in a more positive collection and reiterate my support for the collector community and small press in general. Please consider supporting your fellow community member, aia, in his new endeavour, VI∙VIII∙X KUP RPG. The price is negligible (I was able to purchase all 5 books in printed format for just $28.74 CDN), but the message of support immeasurable!

Happy collecting!

- Richard

Who knows, Kalifax might be next.

Hi Richard---

Zenonmarfat wrote in Wilmark Dynasty Estate Acquisition:I've said my piece about Wilmark Dynasty and frankly, I'm done with it. Wilmark Dynasty is in my possession, and if anyone desires a shrinkwrapped copy directly acquired from the estate with provenance, they have my selling details.

I have some Qs for you about the Wilmark Dynasty content, since I'm not deeply familiar with the adventures:

1. Are the adventures designed for use with AD&D or OD&D?
2. Do you also have any copies of Roomscapes and/or the Melanda Supplement available?
3. Are there any unpublished Wilmark Dynasty manuscripts that you're aware of?
4. In addition to the existing stock, do you own the IP rights to the Wilmark Dynasty content?

Unrelatedly, since I assume you're in the NE, I'm still looking for information about an old NJ tourney from the early 1980s, and would appreciate any info you (or Lee?) might have about it, if it rings any bells at all:  Greyhawk's Tournament History: Treasure of the Dragon Queen

Zenonmarfat wrote in Wilmark Dynasty Estate Acquisition:I'd just like to steer this thread in a more positive collection and reiterate my support for the collector community and small press in general. Please consider supporting your fellow community member, aia, in his new endeavour, VI∙VIII∙X KUP RPG. The price is negligible (I was able to purchase all 5 books in printed format for just $28.74 CDN), but the message of support immeasurable!

Thank you for the reminder, I need to go look at these in more detail this weekend! =)

Allan.

The question is how many small press collectors are still in "active research"? I have the feeling that most of us have already found what we are looking for and as Mark, some of us are now even downsizing our collection... Considering that small press collectors are rare, if most of them have the Wilmark run, there is not a lot of "clients" available...

Additionnally, I am wondering how many non-shrinked modules exist. I guess that all the sold Wilmark modules were in shrink (except melanda).

lokiwookie wrote in Wilmark Dynasty Estate Acquisition:The question is how many small press collectors are still in "active research"? I have the feeling that most of us have already found what we are looking for and as Mark, some of us are now even downsizing our collection... Considering that small press collectors are rare, if most of them have the Wilmark run, there is not a lot of "clients" available...

Additionnally, I am wondering how many non-shrinked modules exist. I guess that all the sold Wilmark modules were in shrink (except melanda).

Additionally, I am wondering how many non-shrinked modules exist. I guess that all the sold Wilmark modules were in shrink (except melanda).[/quote]

Hi lokiwookie,

I think a lot of what is being discussed here about collectability and small press desirablity etc. in regards to Wilmark Dynasty is all based on supposition and opinion, not on fact.

Here is the empirical research that I have been able to uncover through examination of sales on Worthpoint.com:

2022 sales on eBay: 1 Escape from Shadowland (SW)
                             1 Burgundy Pit (SW)
                             2 Journey to the Center of the Circle (1 SW, 1 Used)
                             1 Chivalry Lives (Used)
                             Total = 5 items

2021 sales on eBay: 1 Burgundy Pit (Used)
                             1 Melanda (Used)
                             Total = 2

2020 sales on eBay: 2 Chivalry Lives (1 SW, 1 Used)
                             2 Escape from Shadowland (1 SW, 1 Used)
                             1 Journey to the Center of the Circle (SW)
                             2 Lake of Parity (1 SW, 1 Used)
                             2 The Vampyre's Mirror (1 SW, 1 Used)
                             2 The Burgundy Pit (1 SW, 1Used)
                             1 Melanda (SW)
                             Total = 12

2019 sales on eBay: 1 Melanda (1st print, Used)
                             1 Melanda (2nd print, SW)
                             1 Lake of Parity (Used)
                             Total = 3

2018 sales on eBay: 1 Burgundy Pit (Used)
                             Total = 1

2017 sales on eBay: 1 Lake of Parity (SW)
                             1 Melanda (1st print, Used)
                             1 Bundle listing of all six adventure modules (SW)
                             Total = 8

As you can see, in the past 5 years, there have been 31 sales of Wilmark Dynasty items and not more than 6 of any one individual item. This limited amount of sales is not because they are not in demand, it's because of limited quantities available. The interest is definitely there as they are snapped up quickly when they do become available.

One must keep in mind that these modules were regularly played at conventions along the eastern seaboard of the US through the early 80's. This is not some product printed in a garage and given out to friends. These were regularly used and have a strong name recognition factor that has lived long into today.

I dare say that any self-respecting collector would love to have one of these in their collection, it's just a matter of at what price? That's for each collector to decide.

This post is not just meant for you, but for all that insist on throwing shade on the desirability of these items. The worst part is that none of the shade is backed by numbers or facts.

I have not had any issues whatsoever in selling these modules. But what do I know??? Why would anyone listen to the person in possession of the items and in control of the sales figures???

The ultimate irony, and it is almost laughable if it weren't so sad, is that this place, the Acaeum, the ultimate D&D collector's community, just happens to be the place (and the ONLY place) where I've had shade thrown on this acquisition. I have had many buyers tell me how they have not seen these items in a long time and were thrilled to add them to their collection.

What do I get here? Very little about the facts and history or value added remarks about Wilmark Dynasty (thank you to those that did make insightful comments). No, what I get here is mostly comments on how little value these would have and how it would take 10 years to dispose of the collection.

I am collector. I will sell to other appreciative collectors who also value Wilmark Dynasty (more than what some people here may think). If you don't want it, or have any interest in it, fine, don't buy it or read about it.

The fact that this thread has gone on so long apparently speaks volumes about the interest in Wilmark Dynasty despite members telling me there is no interest.

Finally, I am also taking down my ad in the classified forum of the site down. I do not want to pollute the site with undesirable items.

Lesson learned!

- Richard

stratochamp wrote in Wilmark Dynasty Estate Acquisition:There were at least 80 copies of 1st Edition Melanda printed, as I have copy #80. In the past I had a lower number (which was not in the NM- condition of the one I kept) as well.

In Mica’s provenance letter, she refers to 50 test copies of Melanda being made. Maybe this is separate from the actual 1st printing??? I will have to clarify this with her. So there may be 3 printings… 1) Test printing of 50 copies 2) first printing, and 3) 2nd printing.

I did not know the Melanda 1st print copies were numbered either!

Thanks Bill, really appreciate the extra information!!!

- Richard

Deadlord wrote in Wilmark Dynasty Estate Acquisition:
I'll take a stab at this. The answer is: There are not many hardcore small-press collectors who do not already have copies, and at $150 and $350 a pop, non-hardcore collectors will pass.
Why are there very few small-press collectors? Why no new ones? Because the RPG industry has changed the nature of the game immensely. 5e is designed to make the GM a narrator, with little imagination or input, and the adventures are designed to be finished in a short period of time due to the inability of recent generations to maintain interest in something for very long. So, a 20's year old who does not have tons of cash lying around would prefer to spend $350 on several books that they can actually use. Their generation did not spawn collectors in the traditional sense.
Also, anyone spending that kind of money for a book they can't even read is going to factor in the resale potential and value. It is highly unlikely they will ever sell the book for $350, never mind more. Add in the obscurity of the publisher, and you have the scenario.
Were it a pile of Dwarven Glory's, I suspect more would sell than Wilmark, but even then, the price tag would likely fall under the "Silliest Auction Prices" category.
The Internet was a double-edged sword for collectors. It made items available that were hard or impossible to track down, but it also inflated the price drastically. Gone are the days of sending an extra white box to a fellow collector as a gift to help them complete a collection; even trading has fallen by the wayside. Now it is all about value. This happened to all types of collecting: comics, stamps, art, everything. Luckily for the true collectors, hard-to-find items were largely picked up during the beginning. First print DGs used to go for around $350-400, I shudder to think what one goes for now.

Bear in mind deadlord that those prices are in Canadian dollars with a corresponding 30% decrease in comparison to the US dollar. Also, the prices I'm asking for shrink wrapped copies are not much different than the prices they have been selling for before and this is not even factoring the value increase in the collectables market the past two years.

I have already sold more than 30 copies of these items, that is the reality. This is more than were sold in total in the previous five years!!! If you don't believe me look up the data on Worthpoint that I listed above. Better yet, go on Worthpoint as it also shows the values they went for. These are facts, not opinions. If the market isn't there, why are people buying them from me?

I think the majority of you underestimate this market. The interest in these items is there and, to me, that is a great thing. It means this hobby is still growing.

This is very much like any other collectable market out there like sports cards and comics. The big boys hoard the rarest items, and because those are no longer available to the common person, the market then switches to what people can afford and is what is available to purchase. What was rare and less desirable before because of the vast selection on the market, now becomes the next best thing.

Have we not seen this with AD&D 2nd edition items? And now 3rd edition, 4th edition? As the supply in the market dwindles, aspiring collectors move onto what they can get. Every day there's a new thread in here about items priced crazily. Today's crazy price is tomorrow's fair market value.

In the end, roughly $110 USD for a shrinkwrapped 41 year adventure module is too steep? Maybe, but that's for the market to decide. I only have roughly 30 copies of Melanda and as that is the largest product and a fantasy setting of its own, it is priced accordingly.

I should not even have to defend the pricing. If the reality is that there are no buyers out there for these items as some members claim, then they won't sell regardless right??? I could offer them for free or $1,000 and the end result would be the same.

It does not seem to matter what I say, what evidence I produce, what facts I cite. I'm the "new" ignorant collector and my words and evidence hold little to no credibility.

This is why I pulled my Wilmark Dynasty listing out of the Classifieds forum. No matter what I say, or what I do, I am in the wrong. I should just follow everyone's advice and just give up on these items, is that the goal?

Fortunately, I tend to be stubborn and not follow the crowd. These items are selling, and will continue to sell, regardless of the naysayers.

I would like the support of this community, and I have gotten it from some (thank you to those). If all you have are negatives to bear on this, go for it. I'm a big boy and can handle it. However, be prepared for a robust rebuttal if I think you are in error. I would expect the same thing if I were in error as well. This is how we learn and grow.

- Richard

Personally I could care less what you do with them, Zen, or what price you ask for them. All I did was weigh in with what I think the situation is as far as small-press collecting. You are coming across as awfully defensive; as far as support, what exactly are you looking for for support? Cheers from the collective? Accolades? I'm not sure why the opinions of anyone here matter in this case. You found a hoard of items, and you're selling them to make a profit. Whether or not someone would have done something else with them is irrelevant.
The fact that they are in shrink actually cuts the market down a bit. Personally I have never been a fan of shrinked items. You can't use or even read them. So the possible investors are now basically limited to hardcore completionist small-press collectors and investors. The latter wouldn't buy a copy unless it was extremely cheap, since the price is highly unlikely to increase. The former group would, but as I said earlier many already have copies. Shrinked copies of OB3 are worth more than unshrinked because of the fame attached to it, but shrinked obscure items don't have that benefit.
Price is critical; if it is set too high, a lot of people will pass and wait for a copy to show up cheaper. Sooner or later everything shows up. And putting a .99 on the price tag  will cause many potential buyers to view you as a retailer/reseller. The .99 tag was implemented ages ago by retailers to make the price of an item appear less than it was,  but for higher price tags it doesn't work as well.
Being able to purchase the entire run in one shot does work in your favor, as does the availability of the items individually to fill gaps in existing collections.