Wilmark Dynasty Estate Acquisition
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Post Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2022 6:26 pm 
 

Thanks stratochamp - that was a nice little information time-capsule.

  


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Post Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2022 9:40 pm 
 

You're welcome Doug. They (being John & Lee and others in their orbit) would run events at Origins and GenCon starting in the late 1970's. They also had a wide circle of people that would join them in very elaborate LARP weekends with over 100 people participating. Days of Knights was (and perhaps still is) owned by many people. It reminded me of the scene with Dennis in the Holy Grail where they are part of an anarcho-syndicalist commune. They were all gaming friends who decided to collectively run the store, roleplay together, play strat-o-matic baseball together, LARP together, play softball together, etc. They definitely had a vision and lived it.


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Post Posted: Mon Dec 26, 2022 5:39 pm 
 

stratochamp wrote in Wilmark Dynasty Estate Acquisition:You're welcome Doug. They (being John & Lee and others in their orbit) would run events at Origins and GenCon starting in the late 1970's. They also had a wide circle of people that would join them in very elaborate LARP weekends with over 100 people participating. Days of Knights was (and perhaps still is) owned by many people. It reminded me of the scene with Dennis in the Holy Grail where they are part of an anarcho-syndicalist commune. They were all gaming friends who decided to collectively run the store, roleplay together, play strat-o-matic baseball together, LARP together, play softball together, etc. They definitely had a vision and lived it.


I second the thanks! This is great context and it brings warmth to the thread! We need it given the weather outside...

  


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Post Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2022 8:28 am 
 

how much is a set - 1 of each - PnP to the UK?


Yours
Seany

  


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Post Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2022 2:13 pm 
 

Thanks Stratochamp for the added information. Good or bad, additional insight is always appreciated and valued!!!

I love this site, every day I come away with more knowledge than I had the day before.

The old adage "the more you know, the more you realize you don't know" definitely captures this place!

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Post Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2022 2:32 pm 
 

Seany wrote in Wilmark Dynasty Estate Acquisition:how much is a set - 1 of each - PnP to the UK?

Hi seamy,

Thanks for the interest. I sent you a private message. I've been dealing with members individual pricing inquiries this way so as not to derail this thread.

Happy holidays!

- Richard

  

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Post Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2022 4:50 pm 
 

I suspect it will take a long long while to sell them.  Days of Knights did regularly have copies listed on eBay which is where most of the older small press collectors picked up sets - I can remember Burgundy Pit listed basically every other week. I'm sure they did this for at least 10 years in the early 2000s to mid 2010s and probably sold 200+ sets.  I think I might have a signed set and an unsigned set.   The question really is how many new small press collectors are out there?

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Post Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2022 12:40 am 
 

Zenonmarfat wrote in Wilmark Dynasty Estate Acquisition:Hi seamy,

Thanks for the interest. I sent you a private message. I've been dealing with members individual pricing inquiries this way so as not to derail this thread.

Happy holidays!

- Richard


Well it would make sense to post here your 'Acaeum offer': if i look at the classified ad, the price for a whole lot is 800 bucks. Is this the price of what you would ask to someone here for a full lot?
Thanks!


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Post Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2022 12:44 am 
 

Mars wrote in Wilmark Dynasty Estate Acquisition:  The question really is how many new small press collectors are out there?


They are fewer and fewer... 4E and 5E distracted all the interest towards the small gems of the past! In my listing the most visited/bookmarked item is a 4E module against some treasures like a first ed 'Haven' by Gamelords with zero bookmarks! That is really outstanding!


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Post Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2022 11:12 am 
 

aia wrote in Wilmark Dynasty Estate Acquisition:
Well it would make sense to post here your 'Acaeum offer': if i look at the classified ad, the price for a whole lot is 800 bucks. Is this the price of what you would ask to someone here for a full lot?
Thanks!


I hope Seamy won't mind, but here is the offer I sent to his via PM:

Hi Seamy,

I have a more detailed look at pricing in the Classified section. To summarize, on eBay I sell:

Each tournament module (The Burgundy Pit, Chivalry Lives, Escape From Shadowland, Journey to the Centre of the Circle, The Lake of Parity, The Vampyre's Mirror) for $149.99 CDN each.

I have a special bundle offer of all 6 tournament modules (six for the price of 5) for $749.99 CDN.

The Melanda - Land of Mystery fantasy setting is $349.99 CDN

If you wanted to buy all six tournament modules and the Melanda outside of eBay, as you are an Acaeum member, I would let it go for $900 CDN (regularly $1,099.98 CDN). Shipping would be separate but I did a quick calculation of options through Canada Post:

1) Tracked Packet - International - 10 business days - $79.23; or
2) Xpresspost - International - 8 business days (Guaranteed) - $94.40; or
3) Priority Worldwide pak - $106.83 (no estimated delivery time provided, but I would assume faster?)

If interested let me know what you would like and the shipping option. I can then send you a paypal invoice for the package.

Thanks for your interest and happy holidays!


Of course, I would extend this offer to all Acaeum members who are interested. Note: The shipping quoted above is to the UK. USA shipping would be much cheaper (roughly $30 CDN for tracked shipping).

Richard

  


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Post Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2022 11:37 am 
 

I am really surprised by some of the comments this thread has attracted.

I thought that this was a community of collectors, supportive of the hobby in general. You would think a "very rare" item (that's not me, that's Tomb of Treasures), in a large quantity coming to light would be celebrated.  

Instead, I see only threads about how hard it would be to sell these items and that in the 2000's to 2010's were much more available. Of course they were, just like Woodgrain's were more common in those times as well (along with much, much cheaper!!!). Is this why we collect - money? Is that what it has all boiled down to???

The fact is that these items come up very rarely for sale. Check out eBay and Worthpoint for the history of sales. Not only that, these items are still in their original shrinkwrap as well making that rarity even more fantastic.

I really am beginning to regret even bringing these products to the Acaeum's attention. The knowledge of this place is unsurpassed, but the community support aspect is not at all evident in this thread.

I do not collect for money. D&D and RPGs have a greater meaning to me. If these never sold, I would be happy to keep these in my collection. If others are of like mind, I am happy to share in this acquisition. For those that don't see the value, that's fine to. I'm not here to convince you otherwise. You do... you! Everyone has their collecting focus and interests. Small press happens to be mine.

All the best,

Richard

  

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Post Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2022 3:37 pm 
 

Zenonmarfat wrote in Wilmark Dynasty Estate Acquisition:I am really surprised by some of the comments this thread has attracted.

I thought that this was a community of collectors, supportive of the hobby in general. You would think a "very rare" item (that's not me, that's Tomb of Treasures), in a large quantity coming to light would be celebrated.  

Instead, I see only threads about how hard it would be to sell these items and that in the 2000's to 2010's were much more available. Of course they were, just like Woodgrain's were more common in those times as well (along with much, much cheaper!!!). Is this why we collect - money? Is that what it has all boiled down to???

The fact is that these items come up very rarely for sale. Check out eBay and Worthpoint for the history of sales. Not only that, these items are still in their original shrinkwrap as well making that rarity even more fantastic.

I really am beginning to regret even bringing these products to the Acaeum's attention. The knowledge of this place is unsurpassed, but the community support aspect is not at all evident in this thread.

I do not collect for money. D&D and RPGs have a greater meaning to me. If these never sold, I would be happy to keep these in my collection. If others are of like mind, I am happy to share in this acquisition. For those that don't see the value, that's fine to. I'm not here to convince you otherwise. You do... you! Everyone has their collecting focus and interests. Small press happens to be mine.

All the best,

Richard


i agree with you, and i can feel what you feel.

That is the same sentiment that enveloped me every time i used to post something very obscure (a fantasy rpg or module) on my blog in the past and few were interested.

Grognardia recently posted news about not just one, but TWO incredibly rare and somewhat "obscure" fantasy rpg's, namely "What Price Glory?!" and "Sir Pellinore" because both are in the process of being re-issued and re-published and he got no more than  4-9 miserable comments. I was shocked.

We are talking about lost games that suddenly resurface from antiquity and apparently almost no interestet in the OSR community.

But your collection is fantastic, i own Melanda which i bought many years ago (the edition in the photo) but i miss the supplements. I would really like to put my hands on at least, The Burgundy Pit

Perhaps i will contact you in private.

Cheers

  

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Post Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2022 3:41 pm 
 

Hello Richard,

Don't take any commentary personally, but I'm not sure what you are considering to be controversial or non-supportive, if that's what you are implying with your latest post.  The responses that I've seen have almost all been supportive and constructive.  The Acaeum consists of many knowledgeable and experienced collectors, who will give you their honest opinion and assessment.  If that is different than your own opinion, it does not make it wrong or non-supportive.

I thought that this was a community of collectors, supportive of the hobby in general. You would think a "very rare" item (that's not me, that's Tomb of Treasures), in a large quantity coming to light would be celebrated.  

Yes, this is a community of collectors, who are very passionate and supportive of the hobby, but that doesn't mean that they will support anyone's claims or opinions.  That also doesn't mean that members will just hand over money for something that isn't considered worth the asking price, from their perspective.

Are these items rare?  Yes.  Is it fantastic that you were able to obtain all of the remaining stock? Yes.  Are these a bit of a niche collectible? Yes.  Will everyone share your opinion as to their value? No.

Just because something is rare, does not make it valuable. Yes, the items you acquired are rare, but market demand will set the value for these items, not someone's perceived value for them.  The only true way to establish their value is to list them as low starting price auctions and let the market determine what they are worth, or price them based on past sales.  The latter might not be as easy to do, since there haven't been a lot of sales in recent months, especially in SW.  Otherwise, you can continue listing them for what you want to get for them, but you should expect that you might get some pushback, if the prices are considered too high by some people, justified or not.

As you aptly put it, these are small-press items.  The number of collectors that are interested in these particular items is rather small.  You should expect that the responses and commentary would likewise be less than for more popular items. I'm personally a big fan of small-press items, whether the quality is good or bad. :)

One final comment in regard to the following post, which is likely the primary one that you are alluding to in your response:

I suspect it will take a long long while to sell them.  Days of Knights did regularly have copies listed on eBay which is where most of the older small press collectors picked up sets - I can remember Burgundy Pit listed basically every other week. I'm sure they did this for at least 10 years in the early 2000s to mid 2010s and probably sold 200+ sets.  I think I might have a signed set and an unsigned set.   The question really is how many new small press collectors are out there?

Mars is one of our most experienced members.  He's had thousands of substantive posts, and has been a contributing member for about 20 years.  When he makes a comment, he doesn't do it flippantly.  His commentary appears to be honest and insightful.  I don't know what else you would expect from members.

I hope you find this feedback constructive.

  

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Post Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2022 4:58 pm 
 

vault keeper wrote in Wilmark Dynasty Estate Acquisition:That is the same sentiment that enveloped me every time i used to post something very obscure (a fantasy rpg or module) on my blog in the past and few were interested.

Grognardia recently posted news about not just one, but TWO incredibly rare and somewhat "obscure" fantasy rpg's, namely "What Price Glory?!" and "Sir Pellinore" because both are in the process of being re-issued and re-published and he got no more than 4-9 miserable comments. I was shocked.

We are talking about lost games that suddenly resurface from antiquity and apparently almost no interest in the OSR community.

Unfortunately, whether we like it or not, most obscure, small-print RPGs will never draw much interest, especially if they aren't linked to a popular RPG.  Many of these publications were never that popular initially, and thus, will likely never become more popular over time.  Fortunately, there are some niche collectors that value these items, so they will live on in their collections.  It's great to see that some of them are even being resurrected and reprinted.

I was happy to catch your commentary on What Price Glory?! and Sir Pellinore's Book.  I hadn't seen those posts.  It's good to see they are going to be made available to the masses.  Most people would otherwise never have a chance to have a copy of these obscure publications.

  


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Post Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2022 5:43 pm 
 

dbartman wrote in Wilmark Dynasty Estate Acquisition:Hello Richard,

Don't take any commentary personally, but I'm not sure what you are considering to be controversial or non-supportive, if that's what you are implying with your latest post.  The responses that I've seen have almost all been supportive and constructive.  The Acaeum consists of many knowledgeable and experienced collectors, who will give you their honest opinion and assessment.  If that is different than your own opinion, it does not make it wrong or non-supportive.


Yes, this is a community of collectors, who are very passionate and supportive of the hobby, but that doesn't mean that they will support anyone's claims or opinions.  That also doesn't mean that members will just hand over money for something that isn't considered worth the asking price, from their perspective.

Are these items rare?  Yes.  Is it fantastic that you were able to obtain all of the remaining stock? Yes.  Are these a bit of a niche collectible? Yes.  Will everyone share your opinion as to their value? No.

Just because something is rare, does not make it valuable. Yes, the items you acquired are rare, but market demand will set the value for these items, not someone's perceived value for them.  The only true way to establish their value is to list them as low starting price auctions and let the market determine what they are worth, or price them based on past sales.  The latter might not be as easy to do, since there haven't been a lot of sales in recent months, especially in SW.  Otherwise, you can continue listing them for what you want to get for them, but you should expect that you might get some pushback, if the prices are considered too high by some people, justified or not.

As you aptly put it, these are small-press items.  The number of collectors that are interested in these particular items is rather small.  You should expect that the responses and commentary would likewise be less than for more popular items. I'm personally a big fan of small-press items, whether the quality is good or bad. :)

One final comment in regard to the following post, which is likely the primary one that you are alluding to in your response:


Mars is one of our most experienced members.  He's had thousands of substantive posts, and has been a contributing member for about 20 years.  When he makes a comment, he doesn't do it flippantly.  His commentary appears to be honest and insightful.  I don't know what else you would expect from members.

I hope you find this feedback constructive.


I am all for constructive feedback and valued added comments regarding these items. Stratochamp's comments were great as they added welcome narrative on the background and authors of these items. That is fantastic and what makes these forums great - experienced collectors sharing their knowledge.

Maybe I took Mars' comment in a manner that it was not intended to be (which is always easy to do in online forums), but it appeared to be flippantly dismissive of this acquisition and dismissive of anyone even wanting this in his/her collection. As a collector, this really blows my mind. I have had the honour of meeting and having a very informative lunch with Mark before, so I am well aware of his deep knowledge base of RPGs and would never discount that knowledge.

Members saying that this product will be very hard to sell is based on what? Just supposition, not facts. I have sold well over 30 of these items so far and have not even aggressively marketed them. Now these are the facts as I am aware of them as I am in possession of the items and know those sales figures. The total Wilmark Dynasty adds up to roughly 110 of each module and 30 Melanda. Even as a niche market, there has to be at least 100 people out there who would want this. Add to this fact they are still in their original shrinkwrap from 41 years ago and that just expands that base.

I'm not even talking pricing as that is up to each collector. I dare say that my prices are very reasonable compared to how the market has evolved in the last two years.

Are we collectors or are we commodity traders? I admit, I'm all for the value of my collection increasing but it is not the reason I collect, it is a happy circumstance of being around the items I love. I never had the money when I was a kid to acquire all the goodies in my local hobby store. I fondly remember the days of standing in front of the TSR display shelves just browsing all of the awesome cool fantasy products. Now, In my 50's, I am in a financial position to be able to make that young kid proud! :-)

Maybe I am in the minority, but I would never rain on anyone's parade of their acquisitions. This was not given to me. I worked hard, researched extensively, and spent countless hours in my search for these items.

As vault keeper's post confirms, I am not alone in feeling the shade.

I have a fellow collector once describe this forum as "grumpy old men". I can be grumpy as well, but not when it comes to collecting and certainly not when someone posts their hard won gains.

There, rant over! We can all resume being Mr. Wilson from Dennis the Menace.

If anyone out there has small print items to share, please feel free to share them. I, and it appears many others would love to see them!

- Richard

  

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Post Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2022 11:15 pm 
 

Hey Richard,

No shade intended and at some point next year, I'll have you and Greg over too.

I'm always happy to talk small press rpgs and also the selling side.  The small press stuff is very niche and it has expanded a bit in recent years - what I am curious about is how much it has expanded.  And of course I want to know what you paid for them too - I know where I would have wanted to be on a bulk purchase of this size.

Maybe I should have added more context but I've been travelling and haven't had too much time.  First, there is always some "discussion" when someone uses the word "rare" and what you are comparing to when using this term.  If you are comparing small press print runs with TSR modules of the same era then certainly these are rare - TSR print runs are likely 100X or more larger. Alternatively, we often group these items into the nonTSR category and these would be rare in comparison to something like most of Mayfair Roleaids.  The other issue is: are you making a comment on availability or number of copies known to exist.  In terms of availability, the sales history has essentially been a single source point of sale {from Days of Knights} but (as far as I know) they have continually been available for sale either through Ebay or their online store. In terms of number of copies, knowing that 200+ exists, probably makes this uncommon (when talking with small press collectors) - I would start breaking out categories something like 21-50 known copies, 11-20, 6-10, 3-5, 2, 1 and then trying to figure out which one of these should be "rare". The Tome of Treasures webpage was likely created sometime in the early 2000s so these types of subjective comments are a bit dated - you can also find some of the sales figures in the forums: [url]Tome of Treasures :: View topic - RPG by Publisher M-Z Summary[/url]

In terms of number of copies to move, 100 is a lot and if you are fixing the price at a higher point, this could easily take many years.  A comparable that comes to mind is the John Clegg items that were sold at NTRPG.  Prior to the convention, these items were very rare, and would typically sell for a couple hundred each - a set of the 3 books would have been in the $400-$500 range.  NTRPG ended up getting 100 sets from the author and was selling them for $30.  They didn't sell out at the con and had copies for sale for months later - posted on the forum, Mike has a comment that says there were about 40 distinct buyers.  With the Wilmark items having been more accessible in the past and having a higher price point, its very possible you will still have copies 10 years from now.  You get a good bump of sales now that they are back in the focus, this then turns into some kind of stable state of selling X copies a year or stopping sales and reigniting later, etc.

Its great to see these back up and I've been watching your sales for a couple weeks now (before you posted here).  I'm curious how it all turns out and to see where the market is at.  I've been in a bit of a downsizing mode lately and have sold off a few small press items from my collection - such as What Price Glory?! and Infernax of Spells and Necromancy, etc.  All the best, Mark

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Post Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2022 12:02 am 
 

Also, as a collector its always exciting to find/research/add new items to your collection and that light shouldn't dim.

As a seller, its also an exciting undertaking to take on something like this - part of that journey as a seller is figuring out what works for you and working through a lot like this will help you understand where the market is today.  We can speculate all we want (and this is a lot of what happens in the forums here that makes us seem like grumpy old guys) but ultimately the market will tell you.  There is a certain type of enjoyment when you sell that 100th copy - you'll look back and say you should have asked a higher price all along.

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Post Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2022 12:16 am 
 

Mars wrote in Wilmark Dynasty Estate Acquisition:Hey Richard,

No shade intended and at some point next year, I'll have you and Greg over too.

I'm always happy to talk small press rpgs and also the selling side.  The small press stuff is very niche and it has expanded a bit in recent years - what I am curious about is how much it has expanded.  And of course I want to know what you paid for them too - I know where I would have wanted to be on a bulk purchase of this size.

Maybe I should have added more context but I've been travelling and haven't had too much time.  First, there is always some "discussion" when someone uses the word "rare" and what you are comparing to when using this term.  If you are comparing small press print runs with TSR modules of the same era then certainly these are rare - TSR print runs are likely 100X or more larger. Alternatively, we often group these items into the nonTSR category and these would be rare in comparison to something like most of Mayfair Roleaids.  The other issue is: are you making a comment on availability or number of copies known to exist.  In terms of availability, the sales history has essentially been a single source point of sale {from Days of Knights} but (as far as I know) they have continually been available for sale either through Ebay or their online store. In terms of number of copies, knowing that 200+ exists, probably makes this uncommon (when talking with small press collectors) - I would start breaking out categories something like 21-50 known copies, 11-20, 6-10, 3-5, 2, 1 and then trying to figure out which one of these should be "rare". The Tome of Treasures webpage was likely created sometime in the early 2000s so these types of subjective comments are a bit dated - you can also find some of the sales figures in the forums: https://tomeoftreasures.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3628

In terms of number of copies to move, 100 is a lot and if you are fixing the price at a higher point, this could easily take many years.  A comparable that comes to mind is the John Clegg items that were sold at NTRPG.  Prior to the convention, these items were very rare, and would typically sell for a couple hundred each - a set of the 3 books would have been in the $400-$500 range.  NTRPG ended up getting 100 sets from the author and was selling them for $30.  They didn't sell out at the con and had copies for sale for months later - posted on the forum, Mike has a comment that says there were about 40 distinct buyers.  With the Wilmark items having been more accessible in the past and having a higher price point, its very possible you will still have copies 10 years from now.  You get a good bump of sales now that they are back in the focus, this then turns into some kind of stable state of selling X copies a year or stopping sales and reigniting later, etc.

Its great to see these back up and I've been watching your sales for a couple weeks now (before you posted here).  I'm curious how it all turns out and to see where the market is at.  I've been in a bit of a downsizing mode lately and have sold off a few small press items from my collection - such as What Price Glory?! and Infernax of Spells and Necromancy, etc.  All the best, Mark


I can't wait to have you two debate this some more over a good meal, preferably after a few pints! Nothing like grumpy old men (yours truly included!) getting drunk together and blowing things out of proportion, hopefully just for the duration of a meal!!!!!!! ;)

(on that note, here is a potentially obscure reference I love: https://www.thegamer.com/the-witcher-3- ... er-morhen/
Here is an excerpt: "No Place Like Home is true to its name, because it made Kaer Morhen feel like it was inhabited by a family. A strange one, full of wandering weirdos who rarely see each other and often fight when they do — but a genuine one all the same."
Perhaps the same could be said of the Acaeum :) )


Last edited by gregory on Thu Dec 29, 2022 12:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
  
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