Lost Dungeons of Tonisborg - Considering Investment
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Post Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2022 4:29 am 
 

Yes sir.  You are welcome. I am glad to clarify.
Let us then shake hands and speak no more of it.
And Thank You.


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Post Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2022 1:15 pm 
 

I still think it's shopping,not collecting.
That said  I will probably read the widely available pdf sometime in the future.
Never really liked the "instant collectable" aspect of this kind of item


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Post Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2022 5:06 pm 
 

The money from a $20 PDF on DrivetruRPG would far surpass anything they can make selling hardcopy, and that would be an ongoing income stream that requires little to no maintenance. Sooner or later the $5K or whatever profit every couple of years will end, and you’re left with either a dead asset, or a passive digital income stream. I’ll put my money on the author choosing to draw an ongoing income from the assets he has than holding true to any promise made to the instant collectibles crowd. This second printing alone will kill any perceived value in the 1st printings. Artificial rarity and ‘special colours’ only works once. The moment to pull back the veil and print again, the idiots who thought they were buying rarities on eBay at $500 realise they were idiots, and the community realised you can print agin and again and again, and are controlling the printing press just to create a perception of rarity. That’s when the hardcopy print run interest dries up and any future income comes from digital downloads and print-on-demand. But it could be a steady income stream given its pedigree.


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Post Posted: Tue May 23, 2023 2:04 pm 
 

I was poking around the net and looking for people talking about Tonisborg and this popped up again.

I am always amused by the discussions between people who do not run a game publishing business, or any business for that matter. The comments are hilarious to me.

If you look at OD&D you get a prime example of a small publisher struggling to put out product. I can't recall the exact numbers, but let's say the first printing was for 500 sets of booklets. It cost them 1000 dollars.

ok, now the publisher is out 1000 dollars and has to recoup investment through sales. in the meantime, no one at the company is making squat. A couple months later after selling the sets at wholesale, they may have 6000 dollars - WOOOO!!!

Uh, even at 1970's value that is not feeding a lot of people.

So, instead of cashing out all that cash, they load it back into the production hopper and make more of the game. And so begins the production cycle of money goes out and money comes back in.

Thus when I see comments about us having made a "instant collectible" I just laugh. At the numbers we're producing no one is laughing all the way to the bank. I bet any other publishers reading this will agree. For us this is kind of a side business. Cash goes out from pre-orders and then when it comes back we pay authors and the company holds some cash in order to make more product.

Back in the day before internet sales the delay of cash to purchase product and fabrication times really slowed down cash flow. That is the greatest problem for small companies. I bet TSR would have loved to make way more books, but they just didn't have the cash on hand to meet demand.

Today, everyone is buying Print on Demand which I personally feel is low grade crap. Any company doing POD is not making a ton of money. They would need to sell on a scale of 100 thousand little POD books to make a decent living. Most are doing the game thing as a side gig.

Thus the instant collectible is not some grand scheme to fleece buyers, it's just how small print publishing works. We do not limit print runs at all. Print runs are limited through orders. If only 500 people pre-order, then only 500 books get printed. Thus when a print run is small, it is the nature of the market to dictate whether or not it becomes collectible. The publisher has no control over the after market value and they can't really cash in on that anyway. We were lucky to have some left over books on hand.

So yeah, greatly amused. Why, in my day, a cup of coffee cost 50 cents and a pack of smokes was a dollar!

hee hee hee I don't even go out for coffee often because I am so broke these days. Yet, somehow I must be sitting on piles of cash and working this nefarious scheme to limit production runs and create after market collectibility for the game books we publish, so that people who buy our books can make a profit.

Someone is selling a red hard cover on ebay right now for 300 and a black cover for 3k. I am not going to see any of that, but the market has already established that as its value. I have nothing to do with that.

  

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Post Posted: Wed May 24, 2023 12:34 am 
 

Has anyone pre-ordered the paperback?  I think it was supposed to start shipping in early June?

  


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Post Posted: Fri May 26, 2023 10:57 am 
 

Secrets of Blackmoor wrote in Lost Dungeons of Tonisborg - Considering Investment:I was poking around the net and looking for people talking about Tonisborg and this popped up again.

I am always amused by the discussions between people who do not run a game publishing business, or any business for that matter. The comments are hilarious to me.

If you look at OD&D you get a prime example of a small publisher struggling to put out product. I can't recall the exact numbers, but let's say the first printing was for 500 sets of booklets. It cost them 1000 dollars.

ok, now the publisher is out 1000 dollars and has to recoup investment through sales. in the meantime, no one at the company is making squat. A couple months later after selling the sets at wholesale, they may have 6000 dollars - WOOOO!!!

Uh, even at 1970's value that is not feeding a lot of people.

So, instead of cashing out all that cash, they load it back into the production hopper and make more of the game. And so begins the production cycle of money goes out and money comes back in.

Thus when I see comments about us having made a "instant collectible" I just laugh. At the numbers we're producing no one is laughing all the way to the bank. I bet any other publishers reading this will agree. For us this is kind of a side business. Cash goes out from pre-orders and then when it comes back we pay authors and the company holds some cash in order to make more product.

Back in the day before internet sales the delay of cash to purchase product and fabrication times really slowed down cash flow. That is the greatest problem for small companies. I bet TSR would have loved to make way more books, but they just didn't have the cash on hand to meet demand.

Today, everyone is buying Print on Demand which I personally feel is low grade crap. Any company doing POD is not making a ton of money. They would need to sell on a scale of 100 thousand little POD books to make a decent living. Most are doing the game thing as a side gig.

Thus the instant collectible is not some grand scheme to fleece buyers, it's just how small print publishing works. We do not limit print runs at all. Print runs are limited through orders. If only 500 people pre-order, then only 500 books get printed. Thus when a print run is small, it is the nature of the market to dictate whether or not it becomes collectible. The publisher has no control over the after market value and they can't really cash in on that anyway. We were lucky to have some left over books on hand.

So yeah, greatly amused. Why, in my day, a cup of coffee cost 50 cents and a pack of smokes was a dollar!

hee hee hee I don't even go out for coffee often because I am so broke these days. Yet, somehow I must be sitting on piles of cash and working this nefarious scheme to limit production runs and create after market collectibility for the game books we publish, so that people who buy our books can make a profit.

Someone is selling a red hard cover on ebay right now for 300 and a black cover for 3k. I am not going to see any of that, but the market has already established that as its value. I have nothing to do with that.


Totally hear you and agree. And glad I supported your Kickstarter. No regret there whatsoever. You guys did a great job.

  

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Post Posted: Sat May 27, 2023 1:08 am 
 

Secrets of Blackmoor wrote in Lost Dungeons of Tonisborg - Considering Investment:I was poking around the net and looking for people talking about Tonisborg and this popped up again.

I am always amused by the discussions between people who do not run a game publishing business, or any business for that matter. The comments are hilarious to me.

If you look at OD&D you get a prime example of a small publisher struggling to put out product. I can't recall the exact numbers, but let's say the first printing was for 500 sets of booklets. It cost them 1000 dollars.

ok, now the publisher is out 1000 dollars and has to recoup investment through sales. in the meantime, no one at the company is making squat. A couple months later after selling the sets at wholesale, they may have 6000 dollars - WOOOO!!!

Uh, even at 1970's value that is not feeding a lot of people.

So, instead of cashing out all that cash, they load it back into the production hopper and make more of the game. And so begins the production cycle of money goes out and money comes back in.

Thus when I see comments about us having made a "instant collectible" I just laugh. At the numbers we're producing no one is laughing all the way to the bank. I bet any other publishers reading this will agree. For us this is kind of a side business. Cash goes out from pre-orders and then when it comes back we pay authors and the company holds some cash in order to make more product.

Back in the day before internet sales the delay of cash to purchase product and fabrication times really slowed down cash flow. That is the greatest problem for small companies. I bet TSR would have loved to make way more books, but they just didn't have the cash on hand to meet demand.

Today, everyone is buying Print on Demand which I personally feel is low grade crap. Any company doing POD is not making a ton of money. They would need to sell on a scale of 100 thousand little POD books to make a decent living. Most are doing the game thing as a side gig.

Thus the instant collectible is not some grand scheme to fleece buyers, it's just how small print publishing works. We do not limit print runs at all. Print runs are limited through orders. If only 500 people pre-order, then only 500 books get printed. Thus when a print run is small, it is the nature of the market to dictate whether or not it becomes collectible. The publisher has no control over the after market value and they can't really cash in on that anyway. We were lucky to have some left over books on hand.

So yeah, greatly amused. Why, in my day, a cup of coffee cost 50 cents and a pack of smokes was a dollar!

hee hee hee I don't even go out for coffee often because I am so broke these days. Yet, somehow I must be sitting on piles of cash and working this nefarious scheme to limit production runs and create after market collectibility for the game books we publish, so that people who buy our books can make a profit.

Someone is selling a red hard cover on ebay right now for 300 and a black cover for 3k. I am not going to see any of that, but the market has already established that as its value. I have nothing to do with that.


I think diffently compared to gregory: marketing and sales actions of the first two publications go in a direction which is totally inconsistent with these last version...
You should not be amused if someone from this community of collectors says things like instant collectible about your book, this is an extremely negative alert...
Then, you are right to try other ways to make money out this book if the first ones didn't bring you at the expected level. The problem is that it is difficult to correct the marketing strategy when a book is sold with the value proposition "own one of the few copies of this book as it won't be printed in other versions...": if you accept my opinion, that is the main error so far...


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Post Posted: Mon May 29, 2023 2:51 pm 
 

If as aia said the premise of the first book was that it wouldn't be printed in other versions, then yes, it would come across as very deceptive to print it again. Certainly the statement could be interpreted as "other versions' being different content/forms and not printings, but the public would still see it as deceptive.
I suppose I am an altruist when it comes to D&D. Personally my goal if I were to publish something would be to break even financially, or even take a small loss, but to distribute it to as many people as possible in order to give them something to use. If and when I publish something it will be on Dragonsfoot or some other freebie site. I'm not trying to insult your efforts, just throwing in my personal motivations.


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Post Posted: Mon May 29, 2023 3:35 pm 
 

aia wrote in Lost Dungeons of Tonisborg - Considering Investment:
I think diffently compared to gregory: marketing and sales actions of the first two publications go in a direction which is totally inconsistent with these last version...
You should not be amused if someone from this community of collectors says things like instant collectible about your book, this is an extremely negative alert...
Then, you are right to try other ways to make money out this book if the first ones didn't bring you at the expected level. The problem is that it is difficult to correct the marketing strategy when a book is sold with the value proposition "own one of the few copies of this book as it won't be printed in other versions...": if you accept my opinion, that is the main error so far...


To clarify I don't know anything about the first 2 campaigns and supported the most recent one (at the highest level at that). It seems this whole discussion hinges on a simple fact check as always. Did they promise in previous campaigns there would be no other printing of the SAME version? I'm going to bet the devil is in the details on that one, but I'll await facts to make up my mind. If someone has links to the previous campaigns it is easy to check. I might even search for them but not today as my to-do list is already packed.

  

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Post Posted: Mon May 29, 2023 8:05 pm 
 

This post has wandered a bit from the original topic, so it might be helpful to understand the evolution of the printings of this product.

The first edition, first printing was initially part of the following Kickstarter:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/se ... f-dungeons

1st Edition, 1st Printing - Hardcover, Black, Contributor Version (25 printed, but at least one reference indicates 30)
1st Edition, 1st Printing - Hardcover, Teal, Standard Version (30 printed)
1st Edition, 1st Printing - Hardcover, Royal Purple, Standard Version (170 printed)

This was considered a limited-edition release.  200 were available to the public, with the 25 black versions for contributors.  The color wasn't necessarily important originally.  They were produced from the materials available.  These do not appear to have been intended as an "instant collectible", but more of an add-on to specific pledge levels of this Kickstarter.

The Lost Dungeons of Tonisborg Kickstarter consisted of the book itself, and add-ons:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/se ... -tonisborg

The printings do get a little confusing here, as they are both mentioned in the pledge levels.

1st Edition, 1st Printing - "Mass Market" Paperback, B&W (?? printed)
1st Edition, 1st Printing - Softcover, Color (?? printed)
1st Edition, 1st Printing - Hardcover, Cardinal Red (170 printed)
1st Edition, 2nd Printing - Hardcover, Cardinal Red (454+ printed?)

What might have muddied the water a bit is that there appear to have been preorders and/or orders taken for the hardcovers and softcovers before, during, and after the Kickstarter.  Perhaps someone can confirm or deny this.

I couldn't find any discussion where it was indicated that there would be no additional printings, just that the print runs were limited, which is not unusual, especially when initially rolling out a product or through a Kickstarter.

  


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Post Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2023 3:16 pm 
 

dbartman wrote in Lost Dungeons of Tonisborg - Considering Investment:This post has wandered a bit from the original topic, so it might be helpful to understand the evolution of the printings of this product.

The first edition, first printing was initially part of the following Kickstarter:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/se ... f-dungeons

1st Edition, 1st Printing - Hardcover, Black, Contributor Version (25 printed, but at least one reference indicates 30)
1st Edition, 1st Printing - Hardcover, Teal, Standard Version (30 printed)
1st Edition, 1st Printing - Hardcover, Royal Purple, Standard Version (170 printed)

This was considered a limited-edition release.  200 were available to the public, with the 25 black versions for contributors.  The color wasn't necessarily important originally.  They were produced from the materials available.  These do not appear to have been intended as an "instant collectible", but more of an add-on to specific pledge levels of this Kickstarter.

The Lost Dungeons of Tonisborg Kickstarter consisted of the book itself, and add-ons:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/se ... -tonisborg

The printings do get a little confusing here, as they are both mentioned in the pledge levels.

1st Edition, 1st Printing - "Mass Market" Paperback, B&W (?? printed)
1st Edition, 1st Printing - Softcover, Color (?? printed)
1st Edition, 1st Printing - Hardcover, Cardinal Red (170 printed)
1st Edition, 2nd Printing - Hardcover, Cardinal Red (454+ printed?)

What might have muddied the water a bit is that there appear to have been preorders and/or orders taken for the hardcovers and softcovers before, during, and after the Kickstarter.  Perhaps someone can confirm or deny this.

I couldn't find any discussion where it was indicated that there would be no additional printings, just that the print runs were limited, which is not unusual, especially when initially rolling out a product or through a Kickstarter.


Just a quick update from memory as to how many of each.

Just a general outline of what they are and where they come from.

1st printing, via Secrets of Blackmoor Movie Kickstarter

Black Cover For people who worked on the project Qty: 25

Purple Cover as intended for sale Qty: 170

Tiel Cover because fabric supply was scarce during covid Qty: 30

2nd Printing on our website

Red Cover 80 pound paper due to covid supply issues Qty: 200 (This Qty may be larger than I recall. Possibly 250 because we used 80 as quick Ship on the following KS project as we had them on hand.)

2nd Printing on KickStarter

Red Cover 70 pound paper Qty: 450 or so

---------

Tonisborg came out of not selling enough movie product as DVDs to cover movie making expenses and that part of the business is still in the hole. When we saw how well it did, we thought to try another KickStarter just for books.

I don't think we ever said we would not ever reprint. Though for hard covers it is time consuming, thus those may not happen again for a while due to our limited work force and work time. i.e. we have other jobs.

Just as an example, we'd need to get about 200 people wanting hardcover books to do another hard bound print run. Our printer has gone a bit AWOL for those, so we may need to find another printer if they simply go out of touch. The bindery is overloaded when we do our print runs as they do not have enough skilled craftspeople to fabricate them quickly.
Their business model is rebinding old texts and not producing huge volumes of new texts. I just found out one of their older hand sewers just passed away, which is sad because I'd love to do a hand sewn edition and this is becoming a lost art.

The paper back copies will be available worldwide as POD soon, so people can purchase a copy to read without having to spend a fortune on shipping.

  


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Post Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2023 3:25 pm 
 

dbartman wrote in Lost Dungeons of Tonisborg - Considering Investment:Has anyone pre-ordered the paperback?  I think it was supposed to start shipping in early June?


Which paper back, Mass Market or the higher grade Black Cover one?

We delivered all the mass market paper versions a while ago. Due to printer problems we ate the extra cost of shipping them individually.

The black cover version with 70 pound archival paper are all boxed up ready to ship. They will go out this week.

All that remains to be done is larger orders for those who purchased multiple books, along with some international purchases.

Griff

  


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Post Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2023 3:15 pm 
 

The Kickstarter was fulfilled.

Seeing as we always have to over order to make sure we have replacement books for copies which get damaged during shipping, there is a small quantity which is for sale on our site.

https://www.tfott.com/category/books

We are also selling Art and Maps. All the proceeds go to the artists.

https://www.tfott.com/category/tonisbor ... rt-auction

Thank you.

  
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