Eye of the Dragon Photos
Post new topic Reply to topic Page 1 of 41, 2, 3, 4
Author

User avatar

Prolific Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 135
Joined: Feb 08, 2014
Last Visit: Mar 04, 2021

Post Posted: Sat May 31, 2014 11:44 pm 
 

Hi Everyone,
I am sure many of you have seen the post in the Classifieds regarding Eye of the Dragon.  We are really excited to be able to help bring forward the production of Eye of the Dragon.  I thought some of you may be interested in a photo of some of the material I saw while at Tracy's house.  Also, here is the post by Bracton regarding a little of the history and how you can obtain a copy also.  
Cheers!

"As many members of the Acaeum know, before Tracy Hickman went to work for TSR, he and his wife Laura wrote two adventure modules, Pharaoh and Rahasia, under their Daystar West imprint.  Both, of course, were ultimately turned into modules mass-produced by TSR.  But few of the Daystar West originals were distributed, and today they are very rare.

Originally, there was going to be a third Daystar West module, to be called Eye of the Dragon.  When Tracy went to work for TSR, however, he stopped working on it (and started working on what became the Dragonlance series).  But before joining TSR, Tracy had printed off a batch of covers for EotD, similar to those used for Pharaoh and Rahasia.  A while ago, Blackmoor posted about his acquisition of one of those covers.  He obtained his copy from Melnibonean (Scott), who lives in Utah and had recently acquired all of the remaining EotD covers from the Hickmans.

In talking to the Hickmans, Scott learned that Tracy still has the original notes and maps he had prepared for EotD.  Scott contacted three members of the Acaeum he had met at Gary Con (Stratochamp, Blackmoor and me) to see if together we could work out an arrangement with the Hickmans to finally get EotD into print.

We were recently able to reach an agreement with the Hickmans, and EotD will finally be produced as a limited edition collectors' module, based on Tracy's original notes and maps.  Under the arrangement, 38 copies of the module will be printed in total, each having one of the original covers.  Twenty six numbered and signed copies (numbers 5 through 30) will be made available for purchase by collectors.  No further limited edition copies of EotD will ever be printed, and we do not expect that EotD will ever be produced or sold again in any other format.  Although timing will depend on the Hickmans (who are currently at work on the adventure), Tracy has targeted delivery of the final modules at Gen Con in August.

The price for each limited edition, signed and numbered copy of EotD is $1,250 plus shipping and insurance.  Anyone interested in acquiring a copy should PM Stratochamp or me.  Reserving your copy will require payment in advance, first come, first served.  Once payment is made for all of the available copies, the list will close. If some of the available copies remain unsold by the end of June, we will likely invite those who have already purchased a copy the chance to buy a second.

Although copies of EotD will be reserved on a first come-first served basis, the copy number anyone receives will not depend on the order of PM or payment.  Copy numbers will be randomly determined after all copies have been purchased.  If Tracy and Laura do deliver them to us by Gen Con, we'll roll the numbers up there, and all interested parties would be welcome to watch.

Thanks for your interest. We think it is pretty cool to be able to help bring this long-rumored adventure in to print.

P.S.  For those on Tracy's email list, he just sent around an announcement about EotD."

You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
  

User avatar

Verbose Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 1094
Joined: May 14, 2008
Last Visit: Mar 04, 2021
Location: West of a site called "Chicago" . . .

Post Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 11:39 pm 
 

With apologies for the duplication, I just posted an update in the classifieds.  Tracy is running a private game of Eye of the Dragon at Gen Con for purchasers of the new module.  We'll have to wait until August to report, but I'm sure one of us will post information here about the adventure after the game.

Re: Hickman's Eye of the Dragon


"Parturient montes, nascetur ridiculus mus."

  

User avatar

** Banned **

Posts: 43
Joined: Sep 08, 2012
Last Visit: Oct 14, 2016

Post Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 11:41 pm 
 

Why the ridiculous price?

  

User avatar

Verbose Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 1094
Joined: May 14, 2008
Last Visit: Mar 04, 2021
Location: West of a site called "Chicago" . . .

Post Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2014 12:05 am 
 

PM sent.  And anyone with any questions should feel free to PM me directly.


"Parturient montes, nascetur ridiculus mus."

  


Prolific Collector

Posts: 395
Joined: Feb 06, 2003
Last Visit: Mar 04, 2021
Location: UK

Post Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2014 9:30 am 
 

Why aren't you happy to answer questions in public about the ridiculous price?

  

User avatar

Verbose Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 1094
Joined: May 14, 2008
Last Visit: Mar 04, 2021
Location: West of a site called "Chicago" . . .

Post Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2014 11:25 am 
 

I suppose, for one, I don't think the price is ridiculous.  If I did, I wouldn't be involved.  While Scott is a relatively new member of the Acaeum, the other three of us have been on this forum for quite a while.  I would hope that we have some credibility that we are not being unreasonable in the price sought.  We are certainly being upfront with those who have decided to purchase a copy (and over half of the available copies have now been sold).  But a discussion in an open forum about the economics of the module seemed, at least to me, unnecessary.

Given the fact that this has been raised by two members in the open forum, I will say this.  The economics are largely driven by the expense necessary to divert the Hickmans from their other projects, to put in the time and effort to complete this adventure to a level of professionalism they expect of themselves.  None of the four of us are making a profit on this adventure.  We have elected to involve ourselves because we would like to see EotD finally in print.  We would hope that others share our enthusiasm, even if they choose not to (or, let's be honest, cannot afford to) acquire a copy.

Again, I'm more than happy to answer questions anyone has, but would much prefer to leave this thread for a discussion about EotD itself.


"Parturient montes, nascetur ridiculus mus."

  


Prolific Collector

Posts: 395
Joined: Feb 06, 2003
Last Visit: Mar 04, 2021
Location: UK

Post Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2014 3:39 pm 
 

I suppose I think the original day star west modules are expensive because they were small print runs, old and became TSR modules.

These look like a cash grab and I think it is a shame that the module won't be widely available to people who are interested in D&D. It seem antithetical to the hobby (of playing D&D).

  

User avatar

Long-Winded Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 3590
Joined: Dec 20, 2003
Last Visit: Mar 03, 2021
Location: Canada

Post Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2014 10:32 pm 
 

Sardan wrote in Eye of the Dragon Photos:I suppose I think the original day star west modules are expensive because they were small print runs, old and became TSR modules.

These look like a cash grab and I think it is a shame that the module won't be widely available to people who are interested in D&D. It seem antithetical to the hobby (of playing D&D).


Initially when we started this project I too thought that the perception may be that It is a "cash grab", but it really is not such.  We wanted it to be collectable and such just like it came out, we were limited to the amount of original covers that were left in this world, hence the odd numbering.  Also the Hickman's must make significant effort in order to get the project finished, that means stalling any current project to work on EotD, hey they need to support themselves as well.  Also the significance of the material comes to mind, it is the building blocks of Dragonlance.  Lastly the authors should get some significant reward for doing this, if 26 copies hit the market at $150.00 or so the price would skyrocket in a very short time leaving the "resellers" the lion's share of the value and not the creators.


Games can get you through times of no money but money can not get you through times of no games!!

 WWW  


Verbose Collector

Posts: 1653
Joined: Sep 03, 2003
Last Visit: Feb 28, 2021
Location: Portown

Post Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 10:31 pm 
 

Melnibonean wrote in Eye of the Dragon Photos: ... and we do not expect that EotD will ever be produced or sold again in any other format.  


Price aside, as someone interested in the history of D&D, I do find it depressing that it won't ever be available in any other format. A low-cost text-only pdf would be useful & wouldn't hurt the collector's values, as we've seen with the orange-covered B3.


Zenopus Archives website & blog: Exploring the Underworld of Holmes Basic D&D. Holmes Ref: Reference Sheets for Holmes Basic Referees, also compatible with OD&D plus the Greyhawk supplement

 WWW  


Prolific Collector

Posts: 395
Joined: Feb 06, 2003
Last Visit: Mar 04, 2021
Location: UK

Post Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 1:28 am 
 

Blackmoor wrote in Eye of the Dragon Photos: Also the significance of the material comes to mind, it is the building blocks of Dragonlance.


Which is why it is terribly sad this material won't be available.

Blackmoor wrote in Eye of the Dragon Photos:if 26 copies hit the market at $150.00 or so the price would skyrocket in a very short time leaving the "resellers" the lion's share of the value and not the creators.


So produce 26 limited editions and more standard editions.

  

User avatar

Long-Winded Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 3405
Joined: May 30, 2007
Last Visit: Mar 04, 2021
Location: USA Georgia

Post Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 8:32 am 
 

I have been watching this discussion with interest as I would love to own a copy of Eye of the Dragon myself.  I have always been a big fan of the Hickman's works, and this adventure sounds very interesting.  The price however, was too much for me.  I understand the Hickman's need to get paid for their work.   I understand the resellers issue.  I understand that whoever is coordinating this project is only doing this as a labor of love because projects like these never go as easily and smoothly or cheaply as first imagined (the LE art projects come to mind), and adding to a project is rarely a good idea.  Mission creep is one of the sneakier assassins of any project.

That being said, the prospect of a limited edition and a standard edition does present a possibility worth exploring.  The Hickmans still get paid, the Limited Editions maintain most of their value, and those who are interested more in the content than the cost have an alternative.  The biggest potential down-side is the possibility that the presence of a standard edition means potential participants in the LE issue could drop out, and second, there is additional work for the committee creating this project.  Mailing these things to everybody alone is a huge hassle.  

Therefore, in order for this proposal to work, it seems logical to me that the original project continue as planned, cost and everything, and once it is completed, then the committee or project coordinators can look into publishing a standard issue if they want.  If they don't want the hassle, then hopefully they would be willing to seek the blessing of the Hickmans and turn over the documents to another team/publisher who would be willing to publish a standard issue.  Of course, the Hickmans would receive royalties off of those issues as well, so I can imagine they'd be for it.  And if the Hickmans do receive additional compensation through these standard editions, this could mean reducing the costs of the Limited Editions for the high-end buyers, so they'd benefit too.  For example, a deal could be structured where LE buyers could receive a royalty off of these standard issues too, to off-set any perceived or real loss in value to their LE copies.  And if you think that's too good a deal for them, then you just go ahead an pony up the purchase price of an LE issue.  For all you standard issue advocates, the LE buyers need to be just as convinced as you are of the benefits of this possibility.

There is at least one more matter requiring consideration and that is, if the first coordinating committee does not want to go through the hassle of publishing these adventures, then the second group is not going to be willing to publish an unlimited number of adventures.  So, even these standard issues would be limited, just not numbered.  And for the Hickmans to be paid these additional royalties/commissions, these standard issues would probably all need to sell within a year at most.  In this way, it's a straight-forward, done and over-with contract.  This means that there will still be buyers left out in the cold, just not as many.   :?   And not only that, a mechanism (like a poll thread) would have to be created where interest could be gauged as to how many standard issues could be sold at a certain price point, say $150.00.  There might be 100 people interested, but if I were guessing, it'd be more like 40.  Or if you went with a $50.00 price point, you might get 75 buyers.  Again, projects like these can get real complicated, real quick.  I wish the committee luck with their project, and I am pleased they have come as far as they have.   8)


Truth is worth finding and life is too short to work for money.

  

User avatar

Verbose Collector
Acaeum Donor
Valuation Board

Posts: 1845
Joined: May 01, 2004
Last Visit: Mar 04, 2021
Location: Almost Lake Geneva, WI

Post Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 11:16 am 
 

I simply assumed that Trace reserved the right to reprint it himself.

Not privy to details tho; just an assumption.

  

User avatar

Long-Winded Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 3405
Joined: May 30, 2007
Last Visit: Mar 04, 2021
Location: USA Georgia

Post Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 11:30 am 
 

ExTSR wrote in Eye of the Dragon Photos:I simply assumed that Trace reserved the right to reprint it himself.

Not privy to details tho; just an assumption.


He might have.  I don't know.  But even if this initial committee doesn't talk to the Hickman's about it, I am guessing it's going to come up with them sooner or later.  

If I am the Hickmans, the main things I am concerned about are working with legit people and getting paid for my work.  This group provides this.  And even if I never own a copy, for D&D's sake, I am glad this is getting done.  I realize not everyone is going to be happy about whatever is decided, but I have high confidence in the people involved, and I believe they'll carefully consider whatever is presented in these forums.  I would not want to be in their shoes.  I'd like their wallets, but not their shoes.   :wink:


Truth is worth finding and life is too short to work for money.

  

User avatar

Grandstanding Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 7947
Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Last Visit: Mar 04, 2021
Location: DFW TX

Post Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 2:48 pm 
 

Produce pdfs with watermarks, and no covers, and slightly altered text (2nd prints). Without the original covers, these are just going to be curios.  There are pdfs of ST1 and orange B3 out there and I'm not seeing any problems with fakes of those being sold.  

I like this project and I'm glad the material is seeing print, and I even think the price points are in line for what is being included, but anyone who has read my posts over the years knows I'm about dissemination of knowledge over everything else.  And there has been exactly zero evidence over the years that any reprint of a RPG rare has ever affected the price of an item.  

Mike B.


"THE MORE YOU THINK ABOUT WHY i DONE WHAT i DONE THE MORE i LAUGH" Cougar
"The Acaeum hates fun" Sir Allen
"I had a collecting emergency" Nogrod
Co-founder of the North Texas RPG Con
http://www.ntrpgcon.com

 WWW  

User avatar

Grandstanding Collector

Posts: 6067
Joined: May 03, 2003
Last Visit: Feb 08, 2021
Location: Waterloo, Ontario, Canada

Post Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 7:12 pm 
 

ExTSR wrote in Eye of the Dragon Photos:I simply assumed that Trace reserved the right to reprint it himself.

Not privy to details tho; just an assumption.


Not privy to the details but the line in the original post "we do not expect that EotD will ever be produced or sold again in any other format" would suggest that this has been discussed although "we do not expect" doesn't sound like the door is completely closed.

 WWW  

User avatar

Grandstanding Collector

Posts: 6067
Joined: May 03, 2003
Last Visit: Feb 08, 2021
Location: Waterloo, Ontario, Canada

Post Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 7:30 pm 
 

benjoshua wrote in Eye of the Dragon Photos:how many standard issues could be sold at a certain price point, say $150.00.  There might be 100 people interested, but if I were guessing, it'd be more like 40.  Or if you went with a $50.00 price point, you might get 75 buyers.  Again, projects like these can get real complicated, real quick.


I think this is a bit of a delicate situation when you consider the past experience of Bottle City.  Bottle City sold around 50 copies at the $150 price point.  When the product finally came out and it turned out that the booklet for the LE edition was the same as the standard edition, I remember there was a fair bit of disappointment about how close the the standard product was to the LE edition (i.e. what were you really getting for the extra $100+).

Now consider a similar situation with EotD where an LE edition is $1250 and a standard edition is $150.  I am guessing that if the Hickmans wanted to release a more mass produced standard edition at the price of $150, I think they would probably want to release something better than sheets of typed up text - they would probably want a more polished module so those paying $150 are getting a product worth the money.  But the same question would then be asked as with Bottle City - for the extra $1100 what are you really getting.  The only answer I can think of here is that you are getting an original cover for that price, then debate, is the cover alone worth this amount?

 WWW  

User avatar

Long-Winded Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 3405
Joined: May 30, 2007
Last Visit: Mar 04, 2021
Location: USA Georgia

Post Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 7:37 pm 
 

Mars wrote in Eye of the Dragon Photos:I think this is a bit of a delicate situation when you consider the past experience of Bottle City.  Bottle City sold around 50 copies at the $150 price point.  When the product finally came out and it turned out that the booklet for the LE edition was the same as the standard edition, I remember there was a fair bit of disappointment about how close the the standard product was to the LE edition (i.e. what were you really getting for the extra $100+).

Now consider a similar situation with EotD where an LE edition is $1250 and a standard edition is $150.  I am guessing that if the Hickmans wanted to release a more mass produced standard edition at the price of $150, I think they would probably want to release something better than sheets of typed up text - they would probably want a more polished module so those paying $150 are getting a product worth the money.  But the same question would then be asked as with Bottle City - for the extra $1100 what are you really getting.  The only answer I can think of here is that you are getting an original cover for that price, then debate, is the cover alone worth this amount?


Agreed.  I like Badmike's suggestion of a pdf.  That solves that problem.  It also takes care of shipping concerns.   8)


Truth is worth finding and life is too short to work for money.

  

User avatar

Grandstanding Collector

Posts: 6067
Joined: May 03, 2003
Last Visit: Feb 08, 2021
Location: Waterloo, Ontario, Canada

Post Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 7:48 pm 
 

benjoshua wrote in Eye of the Dragon Photos:Agreed.  I like Badmike's suggestion of a pdf.  That solves that problem.  It also takes care of shipping concerns.   8)


I wonder how many people would pay $150 for a PDF - enough to make it worthwhile?

 WWW  

User avatar

Verbose Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 1094
Joined: May 14, 2008
Last Visit: Mar 04, 2021
Location: West of a site called "Chicago" . . .

Post Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 11:13 pm 
 

Thanks for all of the thoughtful discussion, guys.  It is definitely appreciated.  

Scott and I had each originally noted in our posts that we did not expect EotD to be produced in any other format, not because we are necessarily opposed to that happening, but because that was (and for now, remains) our expectation.  How much interest is there in EotD outside the old school collecting community?  I may think it's really cool and interesting, and others on the Acaeum may agree, but, as with many things, we're a bit outside the norm.  Is there enough interest to make the effort of producing another version worthwhile?  I'm not convinced, at least not yet.

In any case, before we move on to considering the publication of EotD in other formats, the four of us have an obligation first to see this initial project through to the end.  Once it is successful, we may consider discussing with Tracy and Laura whether publication in other formats makes sense.  

As noted by others, if we do, there are a bunch of issues that will need to be carefully considered.  We need to preserve the value of the initial modules for those who have made the financial commitment and, in fact, made the publication of EotD possible in the first place.  If there is a subsequent publication, what format should it take, and at what price?  PDFs may not have hurt the value of OB3s or ST1s, but those modules were professionally produced by TSR with cardstock color covers and the like, which a PDF can't duplicate (at least, not without a lot of effort).  Are we sure that PDFs wouldn't hurt the value of the limited edition of EotD, with its much simpler, very old school format?  If instead a "standard" version were to be produced, how is it differentiated from the limited edition?  And if there was a desire to make a commercial-type version (with the glossy cardstock cover, artwork, typical module layout, etc.), who's going to do the work to produce it?  None of the four of us have either the talent or the skills (much less the time) to do so.  If someone is hired, they'll want to be paid, and will the proceeds be sufficient to cover that in addition to royalties?  Etc., etc.

Bottom line, the door is not closed to an EotD coming out in a different format at some point, but there will need to be a good reason to put in the effort to make it happen.  Once the limited edition is in the hands of the purchasers, we'll see.

Whether or not another format is ever produced, we do plan to make information about EotD available for the larger community.  I think it has real historical value, sitting as it does between the Daystar West modules and Tracy's tenure at TSR.  We'll post on this thread when we have details to share (hopefully, by Gen Con).


"Parturient montes, nascetur ridiculus mus."

  

User avatar

Long-Winded Collector

Posts: 4746
Joined: Oct 31, 2004
Last Visit: Feb 05, 2021
Location: Garland, TX

Post Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 1:17 am 
 

For me this whole thing is mostly a non-issue.  I don't collect much anymore as the interest just isn't there the way it used to be.  But I did say "mostly".  :wink:

I do agree with Badmike about the cover.  For me this is the primary thing that makes these a genuine collectable.  You can't fake it and I doubt it could be easily reproduced unless you own a copy.  And odds are these are going to go into collections and will most likely never see the light of day again (at least not for awhile anyway).  :)   And while I don't think a .pdf will cause any long term loss of value, it might influence potential future interest.  Hell if I know though...its just an opinion.

Once the initial printings with the original cover have been sold, give it six months (or more) before even condisdering a new printing.  If there is still interest after six months, then look at a possible second printing.  And no pdf....at least not right away.  And if people complain about paying $60 for a pdf of The Slumbering Tsar, expect the same if a similar price point were made for a pdf of Eye of the Dragon.  The first thing that comes to my mind is a digest sized reprint, similar to the NTRPG Con Wee Warriors stuff.  How much did people pay for Tombs of Valla last year?  Was it thirty or forty bucks?  I'd pay that for a digest sized, no frills version of Eye of the Dragon.  And if it were bundled with digest sized reprints of the Daystar West Rahasia and Pharaoh I'd plop down $100 to $150 no problem.

Just an idea.  :D


You don't like your job, you don't strike. You go in every day and do it really half-assed. That's the American way. - Homer Simpson

  
Next
Post new topic Reply to topic Page 1 of 41, 2, 3, 4