$3,000 Call of Cthulhu Edition
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Post Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 8:22 am 
 

The Kickstarter for the 7th Edition now has a high level pledge:

Call of Cthulhu 7th Edition by Chaosium Inc. » The Temple Edition — Kickstarter


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Post Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 8:36 am 
 

Tempting, really. But $3000, ouch!


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Post Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 1:47 pm 
 

I find it quite bizarro that the 21 pledges of 2,800 $US and up are all "plus postage". imho somebody's accounting preferences are a higher priority than bringing in an extra 55 grand.

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Post Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 2:32 pm 
 

Frank, I thought the very same thing at first glance, but if you have an extra $3,000 or so for a game book, an extra $10 or $20 is not going to be a deal breaker.


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Post Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 2:32 pm 
 

Probably hedging against the possibility that, to prevent USPS' bankruptcy, postal rates will jump to $100 an ounce.

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Post Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 9:05 pm 
 

Technically it's $2800+ for 2 books..

I'm actually a fan of adding postage on later with kickstarters.. first of all kickstarter doesn't take their 5% of the postage.. second there are no mistakes about what it costs.. you pay whatever the rate is.. its a bit more work but no more so than if you had a store/company and had orders like that anyway..

I understand the "why don't they just suck the postage up".. but then why should they? I wouldn't.. anyway.. books too rich for me and I have a quite few limted /rare books.. I'll wait until they hit the secondary market..

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Post Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 10:48 pm 
 

beasterbrook wrote in $3,000 Call of Cthulhu Edition:first of all kickstarter doesn't take their 5% of the postage

Point, certainly.
But when I'm spending that kind of money (tho not in this case) I don't like nickel-and-diming tacked on.
Not a dealbreaker, certainly. Just a bad taste. :/


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Post Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 11:33 pm 
 

ExTSR wrote in $3,000 Call of Cthulhu Edition:Point, certainly.
But when I'm spending that kind of money (tho not in this case) I don't like nickel-and-diming tacked on.
Not a dealbreaker, certainly. Just a bad taste. :/


I am with Frank on this. Although I am not a big time auction buyer (Wait till next year after my KS is in the rear view mirror I will be dangerous then :) ), I wouldn't pledge for a high-end item done like this..it just looks, well, cheap. As a backer for this (at $170) it gave me 2nd thoughts about staying in that KS.

If they cut costs on those types of backers, where will they cut them on schmucks like me. Especially since I know my entire reward will be for sale at stores at about what I am paying for it. At the $333 they offer products "only in the KS", when I see nickel & dime stuff like that I wonder how true that is...

In mine I have a big level with Jeff Dee's original painting that I don't expect to sell, but if I did I would swim to Japan to deliver it if that is what it took.

Yeah, bad form IMOP.

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Post Posted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 2:16 am 
 

I guess kickstarter is the new distribution and promotion network for role playing games!!

Hell why not bypass all the distributors and stores that have been supporting this stuff for years.


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Post Posted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 4:04 am 
 

Blackmoor wrote in $3,000 Call of Cthulhu Edition:I guess kickstarter is the new distribution and promotion network for role playing games!!

Hell why not bypass all the distributors and stores that have been supporting this stuff for years.


I have mixed feelings on existing companies and their use of Kickstarter. At least in tabletop games...[edit- and strong, very wordy feelings about big companies in general on KS]

On one hand, in our categories, we are hardly talking about mega-corporations. I read once on FB or something a statement to the effect of this isn't for huge companies like Reaper. When Reaper (or SJG or whatever) is considered to be huge by some observer then their world is kinda small. Success of companies in these categories (Niche hobby businesses) is important for keeping the entire hobby afloat and, apart from Hasbro and Games Workshop, I want to see nothing but success.

Conversely, as game consumers, we help nobody by giving what is essentially a giant gift to an established company via a glorified pre-order system. I don't blame the companies for hedging risk but I agree with you that the secondary effect is harming local stores that often struggle keeping the lights on. This is double plus ungood but disruptive technologies and changes in business practices always seem that way when they happen.

Consumers behave according to what they perceive as their own needs or best interest and rarely show any future time orientation. Or loyalty for that matter. I, with all my "college" economics credits, am no better when it comes to this. Even though I tell myself I am, it's just a lie. I thought badly of the "Bones KS" for about 5 days until it started to become a mind numbing behemoth of minis. I would never have bought any of them separately (Maybe Cthulu) but thinking I was getting a deal I pledged heavily. Now, closing in on a year later I have no minis yet and have passed up buying ones I actually wanted because I spent so much on other figurines earlier.

Who wins? Not me, not Center Stage or Otherworld, not even Reaper.  I think Reaper will not come out ahead after all is said and done. By flooding the market with an ungodly number of plastic figs they will find less need for that plastic injection machine than they expected- for their core business at least.

So, again, who wins?

Kickstarter.

Very soon more very big companies will as well. Companies whose 24 hour electric bill is triple the size of Reapers lifetime cash flow.

This is where Kickstarter is duplicitous as they constantly highlight that they are champions of the little guy, the starving artist or brilliant filmmaker who couldn't catch a break. If you look at projects they highlight it is always ones of the Dance Troupe from Detroit putting on some show or a woman making quilt patterns in Iowa. I am not saying anything that anyone who follows closely doesn't know but those projects fail all the time and pretending otherwise has costs.

In fact there is a guy living 4 miles from me with a Kickstarter project for a children's book with exactly $25 in pledges and a single backer, me. In fact, after communicating with him, I found out that he saw a show on PBS about it and proceeded to spend a lot of time he didn't have putting this book together. He also spent time researching successful KS projects...like Veronica Mars and Penny Arcade.

I feel sorry for him but he saw KS people on this respected TV show hyping how easy it was for him to get a project started and how a few little things can be all it takes. He, of course, was taken for a ride and has wasted time and money on a make-believe marketing campaign by Kickstarter. Even if he knew better and found a way to get a modicum of funding all KS needed was him and his project was for it to be launched. Once it launched they can keep up the myth that it KS for the little guy.

BS. It is now all about the Veronica Mars type uber projects and what they bring in to Kickstarter which has given huge companies a method to conduct a transaction that if done on the street would be borderline illegal.

I say all of this as a guy who uses and loves Kickstarter projects (not as much as Brette, but a great deal). I don't watch sports but I like rooting for the underdog and KS was a great way to do that. I have met many awesome people in forums and in person who have made the experience, thus far for me, one of the best of my life.

My own Kickstarter has gone well (12 Days to go!) but that is the result of long planning, goodwill from solid people (Aceaum, NTRPG people, etc) and heavy personal investment. I am not going to make much money, though that was never the point. My goal was to make a commercial quality RPG product and not be broke when it was over and hopefully do it again.

As I see it though the situation with Kickstarter is bad for me and bad, as Jeff stated, for things I love. As a middle of the road project from some unknown guy I suffer a non-trivial amount when companies like Chaosium and people like Sandy Peterson (Who I really like) are putting projects that up that were guaranteed to see the light of day and get favorable distribution sans Kickstarter. I don't think they cost me as much as some of the "successful" projects on the other side of the spectrum have. The ones whose only success is funding and that have no business being given money for anything, let alone something as complicated as big projects can become. Those are the poison that has kept the potential of Whisper & Venom lower than it could have been but I, honest to God, am not upset that I am not going to reach 35k or whatever.

I am upset that Kickstarter takes zero responsibility for enabling swindlers like Mike Nystul to run projects, take their 5%, and allow him to run two more. Then after making backers afraid to back other new creators they make it harder by becoming, in effect, exactly what they claim they are not, a big storefront for established companies to bypass retailers.

I still love backing projects and plan to continue but nothing good is going to come of this. Not unless Kickstarter starts taking a little (any?) responsibility for allowing bad creators to strike twice or for approving projects that any sane person would know was destined to fund and quickly drive their creators into bankruptcy.

So without any great expertise I see one of two things happening.

Either backers will go away after one missed promise to many...

or enough money starts getting made that the SEC or the IRS take a good hard look at what is actually happening and the rules change. Those rules won't hurt big companies (they never do), they will however be crushing on people like me.

Wow, all that typing to basically agree with Jeff...sigh, as if I don't have other things I should be doing. Obviously though, this strikes a nerve. I want Kickstarter to be what it claims to be, or at least force established companies to actually offer more than a t-shirt for what is nothing but a pre-order.

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Post Posted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 5:02 am 
 

Nogrod wrote in $3,000 Call of Cthulhu Edition:
Blackmoor wrote in $3,000 Call of Cthulhu Edition:I guess kickstarter is the new distribution and promotion network for role playing games!!

Hell why not bypass all the distributors and stores that have been supporting this stuff for years.


I have mixed feelings on existing companies and their use of Kickstarter. At least in tabletop games...[edit- and strong, very wordy feelings about big companies in general on KS]

On one hand, in our categories, we are hardly talking about mega-corporations. I read once on FB or something a statement to the effect of this isn't for huge companies like Reaper. When Reaper (or SJG or whatever) is considered to be huge by some observer then their world is kinda small. Success of companies in these categories (Niche hobby businesses) is important for keeping the entire hobby afloat and, apart from Hasbro and Games Workshop, I want to see nothing but success.

Conversely, as game consumers, we help nobody by giving what is essentially a giant gift to an established company via a glorified pre-order system. I don't blame the companies for hedging risk but I agree with you that the secondary effect is harming local stores that often struggle keeping the lights on. This is double plus ungood but disruptive technologies and changes in business practices always seem that way when they happen.

Consumers behave according to what they perceive as their own needs or best interest and rarely show any future time orientation. Or loyalty for that matter. I, with all my "college" economics credits, am no better when it comes to this. Even though I tell myself I am, it's just a lie. I thought badly of the "Bones KS" for about 5 days until it started to become a mind numbing behemoth of minis. I would never have bought any of them separately (Maybe Cthulu) but thinking I was getting a deal I pledged heavily. Now, closing in on a year later I have no minis yet and have passed up buying ones I actually wanted because I spent so much on other figurines earlier.

Who wins? Not me, not Center Stage or Otherworld, not even Reaper.  I think Reaper will not come out ahead after all is said and done. By flooding the market with an ungodly number of plastic figs they will find less need for that plastic injection machine than they expected- for their core business at least.

So, again, who wins?

Kickstarter.

Very soon more very big companies will as well. Companies whose 24 hour electric bill is triple the size of Reapers lifetime cash flow.

This is where Kickstarter is duplicitous as they constantly highlight that they are champions of the little guy, the starving artist or brilliant filmmaker who couldn't catch a break. If you look at projects they highlight it is always ones of the Dance Troupe from Detroit putting on some show or a woman making quilt patterns in Iowa. I am not saying anything that anyone who follows closely doesn't know but those projects fail all the time and pretending otherwise has costs.

In fact there is a guy living 4 miles from me with a Kickstarter project for a children's book with exactly $25 in pledges and a single backer, me. In fact, after communicating with him, I found out that he saw a show on PBS about it and proceeded to spend a lot of time he didn't have putting this book together. He also spent time researching successful KS projects...like Veronica Mars and Penny Arcade.

I feel sorry for him but he saw KS people on this respected TV show hyping how easy it was for him to get a project started and how a few little things can be all it takes. He, of course, was taken for a ride and has wasted time and money on a make-believe marketing campaign by Kickstarter. Even if he knew better and found a way to get a modicum of funding all KS needed was him and his project was for it to be launched. Once it launched they can keep up the myth that it KS for the little guy.

BS. It is now all about the Veronica Mars type uber projects and what they bring in to Kickstarter which has given huge companies a method to conduct a transaction that if done on the street would be borderline illegal.

I say all of this as a guy who uses and loves Kickstarter projects (not as much as Brette, but a great deal). I don't watch sports but I like rooting for the underdog and KS was a great way to do that. I have met many awesome people in forums and in person who have made the experience, thus far for me, one of the best of my life.

My own Kickstarter has gone well (12 Days to go!) but that is the result of long planning, goodwill from solid people (Aceaum, NTRPG people, etc) and heavy personal investment. I am not going to make much money, though that was never the point. My goal was to make a commercial quality RPG product and not be broke when it was over and hopefully do it again.

As I see it though the situation with Kickstarter is bad for me and bad, as Jeff stated, for things I love. As a middle of the road project from some unknown guy I suffer a non-trivial amount when companies like Chaosium and people like Sandy Peterson (Who I really like) are putting projects that up that were guaranteed to see the light of day and get favorable distribution sans Kickstarter. I don't think they cost me as much as some of the "successful" projects on the other side of the spectrum have. The ones whose only success is funding and that have no business being given money for anything, let alone something as complicated as big projects can become. Those are the poison that has kept the potential of Whisper & Venom lower than it could have been but I, honest to God, am not upset that I am not going to reach 35k or whatever.

I am upset that Kickstarter takes zero responsibility for enabling swindlers like Mike Nystul to run projects, take their 5%, and allow him to run two more. Then after making backers afraid to back other new creators they make it harder by becoming, in effect, exactly what they claim they are not, a big storefront for established companies to bypass retailers.

I still love backing projects and plan to continue but nothing good is going to come of this. Not unless Kickstarter starts taking a little (any?) responsibility for allowing bad creators to strike twice or for approving projects that any sane person would know was destined to fund and quickly drive their creators into bankruptcy.

So without any great expertise I see one of two things happening.

Either backers will go away after one missed promise to many...

or enough money starts getting made that the SEC or the IRS take a good hard look at what is actually happening and the rules change. Those rules won't hurt big companies (they never do), they will however be crushing on people like me.

Wow, all that typing to basically agree with Jeff...sigh, as if I don't have other things I should be doing. Obviously though, this strikes a nerve. I want Kickstarter to be what it claims to be, or at least force established companies to actually offer more than a t-shirt for what is nothing but a pre-order.

Zach


Good points.

I think in many ways, the rise of Kickstarter parallels the rise of Ebay.  You can make all sorts of comparisons. When ebay first came into being it was much like KS is now, the wild west. People made lots of money, people lost lots of money on con men, and Ebay had a hands off attitude. As trust began to erode their product (much like it will do for KS as time goes on) they were forced to place restrictions on the site and police things, which eventually (as Zach points out) inconvenienced the small guy like me and did nothing to bother the huge megacorps selling on ebay.  As another parallel, you have giant companies selling on ebay when they really don't need to be doing so, much like KS has vanity projects from millionaires and billionaries that would fund without other people's money.

The thing I would ask most people is to look at what you are backing, past the promises and shiny add ons, and decide if this is a company, project or person that really needs your dough.  I never really thought seriously about backing the Reaper KS or the Ogre KS. The Reaper one, I'm sorry, it was a bunch of really shitty cheap plastic miniatures that everyone got caught up in that will undoubtedly sit in the buyer's closet until he tries to unload them years from now (and finds out their value is zero because no one wants a bunch of really shitty plastic minis).  Let me say it once again.  Really....shitty.....plastic....minis.  I have already seen a TON of buyer's remorse here and I think a little thought would have led to a better decision on many backer's parts.  As for the Ogre KS, I think they are putting out a better product, but if I want to buy it on the secondary market for half price, I'll be able to do so very easily in the year's ahead.  No reason really to basically pre-buy this and worry about shipping a half ton of board game to my house two years later.

I enjoy supporting guys like Zach, Bill, Matt, Frog God, etc because they are really dudes like me. Even when a guy like John Adams has delays and problems I can't get that worked up about it.  Most of the time these guys have a track record, and a clue about what to do, and they couldn't normally get access to the type of funds needed to do these projects.   I draw the line at giving money to companies like Chaosium, Reaper, Steve Jackson Games and such. They don't really need my money and their product is nothing I won't be able to find eventually onthe secondary market (for what is essentially a pre-order that will probably be cheaper still done the line).

Guys like Mike Nystul will be weeded out by attrition much as the early scam artists on Ebay were....they do bother me but it isn't unexpected that people will try and take advantage of the Wild West System here.  

Zach, the guy who had the kid's book you talk about reminds me a lot of the same sort of guy that got sucked into selling on ebay through the "Get Rich on Ebay!" classes and infomercials I used to see all the time. Just like Amway or something similar, they get your money and get you hooked on a bad business model (in ebay's case, it was buying stuff really cheap wholesale and reselling for a profit, only they don't tell you that 3000 other people are doing the same damn thing with the same damn crap, and really the only hope you have reselling on ebay is through niche items or collectibles or basically stolen items you can get cheaply).  Like KS, Ebay gurus just wanted your money and offered only promises in return.  

Sadly in many ways KS reminds me of the guy out there who always wanted to run a restaurant, quits his job and spends all his savings tricking out a place and then has it go under in six months because he doesn't have a clue how to run a business.  We are seeing this a lot on KS as people are just tossing shit against the wall to see if it sticks, and then hoping a huge pile of money will somehow translate into a legitimate business model.  Guys like Mike Nystul fail because bascially they are bad businessmen to begin with, throwing a lot of money at them doesn't make them better, it just gives them more money to waste.  A LOT of the KS crowd fits this mold. and it is essential for the investor to do a modicum of research instead of just plopping down $100 bucks or whatever.

The guys that use ebay the right way are few, but they are there, much like guys who use KS the right way are out there.   You just have to be selective and read the descriptions and make informed decisions.  Don't support the guys that are running half a dozen Kickstarters at once. Watch the guys who claim unrealistic rewards that cannot be paid for by the amount pledged to them. Do follow up and chargeback your credit card when the KS becomes so late you can't remember what was being supported, or the updates stop coming. I've seen people that will argue over being overcharged a buck at a checkout counter just plop down $250 to a half-assed idea on Kickstarter with no clue if it will ever arrive or if they even need the product.  Contrast this with the $100 for the Easley art print, that did not collect money until the print was done, then promptly shipped when the product was in hand. If we had run a kickstarter we would have taken your money all up front and shipped a year later.  

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Post Posted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 9:46 am 
 

Wow. All thought provoking points. I wonder if when Kickstarter is no longer a Wild West kinda thang, and not so kind to the little guy, if it can still be used to open up opportunities. Is there any prohibition on a larger company, that maybe wouldn't have taken a chance on a product, putting a successful KS in some way in some way in the contract. Something like distribution, or even production, depends on a successful KS. Then the author(s) of the product work with the big agency's (aka The Corporation) Kickstarter Department to see what they can do.

Eew. I felt dirty typing that, but it could still open up opportunities methinks.

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Post Posted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 2:45 pm 
 

Cynicism usually comes pretty naturally to me, but I tend to give Kickstarter a break here.  They've got a crowdfunding business model, and from what I have seen, a lot of very small artists and entrepreneurs have been able to fund projects through them that otherwise never would have made it out of their basement.

We complain that eBay keeps adding and changing rules, and that their hamfisted efforts to protect either buyers or sellers or both keep backfiring and angering one group or another.  So what's KS to do?  Should they pre-approve all projects?  If I were them, I wouldn't.  The cost is too high to properly diligence every project, and they don't want to be in the business of guarantying success.  And then they'll just get criticized for becoming too corporate, for blocking projects that someone feels are worthy.

KS could prohibit projects by established companies.  But how do you define an established company?  OK, we all agree that Toyota shouldn't be able to do a KS for a car.  But as has been noted, the companies in the RPG space are miniscule compared to a Fortune 1000 business.  Any rule KS could come up with will be easily (and justly) criticized, for either letting too many companies in or keeping too many out (or both at the same time).

So instead KS lets the backers decide.  I've certainly backed my fair share of failed projects (including one of Mike Nystul's).  But I've also gotten some wonderful product I never would have otherwise even known about (for example, the two Shadows of Esteren projects), and supported others that without help likely would never have been made (such as AS&SH).  Is leaving it to backers to weed out the good from the bad the Wild West?  I'm not sure it's any more so than, say, the stock market.

KS may be a new threat to the local hobby store business (though many KS projects offer discounts to retail stores).  But that's just another aspect of the same internet-based challenge to all of retail.  I buy on eBay, and I buy on Amazon.  That means my local stores don't get my business, unless they offer something I can't get online.  They'll die or thrive, depending on how good of a business they are.

The same is ultimately true for KS projects.  If you back the small guy who has a great idea, you may be funding the next big thing.  Or you may be throwing money into a pit, because the small guy has no real idea how to manage a project, convert an idea into printed reality at a commercially reasonable cost and put real product out the door.  That's the nature of venture capital.  What makes the economy go are small businesses, but most small businesses fail.  If you put money into KS -- even if you only go with projects by large, established companies -- you're going to have some failures.

Does any of this mean that KS should shut their doors, or try to become something radically different?  I don't think so, any more than we should shut the stock markets or demand that all stocks always go up.  Some people -- both sponsors and backers -- will be misled, but in the end I think the opportunity it provides for both is worth the downside.

I think the biggest risk in all of these KS projects arises from the drug-addict-like need to add more and more free stretch goals, in an effort to goose the total number of supporters and dollar amount.  These add a lot more work for the sponsor, and because of the uncertainty tend to add a lot more complication than they can ever make up for in volume.  I'd much prefer a smaller project delivered close to on time, than what seems like a bargain with a vast number of freebies, which then overwhelms the sponsor and leaves the project months and months behind schedule.

Current example number one:  I really liked playing in Sandy Petersen's new Cthulhu board game at NTRPGCon, and so backed his KS.  But he's added so many stretch goals, I'm really getting worried he's going to find himself in the Abyss staring at Azathoth, rather than in the post office mailing a nice game box to me.

And back to the OP:  I'm going to take a pass on Cthulhu 7th Edition.  I've got copies of 1st through 6th sitting somewhere on my bookshelves, collecting dust.  I suspect I will wait for the leatherette versions to appear on eBay.  Which, I suppose, is just swapping one destructive internet model for another.


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Post Posted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 4:26 pm 
 

I already felt overly extravagant at $333 for the limited editions.  $3000?!?  Seriously, who has that to spend on a couple game books?

Ah well, to be filed in the "My CoC collection isn't really complete" section.


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Post Posted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 7:04 am 
 

Bracton wrote in $3,000 Call of Cthulhu Edition:Cynicism usually comes pretty naturally to me, but I tend to give Kickstarter a break here.  
....
[lots of good points]
....
I think the biggest risk in all of these KS projects arises from the drug-addict-like need to add more and more free stretch goals, in an effort to goose the total number of supporters and dollar amount.  These add a lot more work for the sponsor, and because of the uncertainty tend to add a lot more complication than they can ever make up for in volume.  I'd much prefer a smaller project delivered close to on time, than what seems like a bargain with a vast number of freebies, which then overwhelms the sponsor and leaves the project months and months behind schedule.

.


It bothers me that I came across as cynical about Kickstarter, as I am a huge fan and, as most of you here are part of it you already know, I am a first time project creator. I do think you are right about projects not seeing the light of day that otherwise would not, at least not in the form their creators envision.

I am also not opposed to large companies using Kickstarter but I am wary of any large company moving into a space where they have the potential to overwhelm everything else around them. But, just as Bracton said, no one is making me support them. So long as the fees and playing field are even and transparent I will be fine.

After seeing this now from the creators perspective though I certainly have a lot more sympathy for other projects than I had before. Seeing things from the dashboard side of things rather than just the comment section is eye popping if only for the messages I receive from both non-backers and other creators.

First, although I knew to expect it, I was still shocked the first time I got an abusive and accusatory email from someone who hadn't backed and didn't seem to know anything about Kickstarter. I am up to three of these types of interactions and I am just grateful they did not pledge and pollute my projects comments section. The creator emails are even weirder with vague quid pro quo offers of mutual support or cross promotion. The first one shocked me but after 23 days of this the stress level is pretty high even for me who both funded and is showing consistent positive movement.

I do admit though that it is very hard to not take it personally when a backer drops, especially if they had a high pledge level or the were a big supporter early on. It is just human nature to have an emotional attachment to what really is a business deal.

I do think though that Kickstarter does play the up the from the bootstraps rags to riches angle that encourages many people to do things that can lead them to do very stupid things when designing or running their projects. In the end, what Kickstarter does right, is allow for the project to be canceled if it gets out of hand. Unfortunately after weeks of abrupt ups and downs I think very few normally sober-minded people are able to dispassionately make that judgement. That is not KS fault and it is to their credit that option is not more limited.

I do think it is a shame to absolve KS of any responsibility to screen projects, I mean the do it already with the list of prohibited items. Not only to protect backers, but also to protect creators. Even small things like providing a calculator where you input what you hope to make and it displays what you can expect to get transferred to your account and again what the potential tax liability looks like.

At the very least asking for a list of what the project would cost to fulfill and maybe only ask for it to be broken down to just the 5 biggest components, for example, would screen quite a few potential problems. In many cases it would be as simple as making sure shipping is on their list. The ones flagged for having no shipping expense or one that are vastly under the actual average cost would encourage these projects either to back out or go back to the drawing board because no matter how many times you say it, people will always underestimate shipping (usually by a wide margin).


I guess part of it is after 3 weeks of this I have started feeling sorry for people who have created projects that, for whatever reason, are not doing well and the desperation is palpable. It is skewed though since  I don't get messages from Chaosium or from Sandy.

I did get an email today from a project I backed on the strength of the creators gaming CV that affirmed what I had already guessed about exactly how far along it was (or wasn't really). Things happen and part of what makes Kickstarter so great also makes it so heartbreaking. As a backer you are part of the project and being a part of a successful one is really a great experience but the flip side is true as well... when a successful, well-funded project either admits defeat or goes silent it feels less like a disappointment and more like a betrayal and through no fault of their own KS absorbs some of that animus.

I still feel that something big will happen soon that is going to change the way the whole process works. With no evidence whatsoever topped with an extra layer of wild speculation added for good measure I think it will happen when the point is reached where $10 million projects are no longer newsworthy and either Kickstarter gets acquired or far to much money flows through the system and changes are imposed on them by the government. The tell that its about to change is when it gets out that either "The Really Big Corporation of America" has been operating on a more way more favorable fee structure than Lesser Gnome or Amazon starts reporting all successful project disbursement to the IRS and state revenue departments.

My long 2 cents...

Zach



  

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Post Posted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 10:21 am 
 

Good points Zach, especially the last paragarph. When Ebay changed their feedback system to allow no negative freedback from sellers, and stopped allowing sellers to accept checks or money orders and use ONLY Paypal, I think that was a game changer.  I think we are going to see something like that happen with KS, there is still too much money left on the table that KS could get a part of....and I think at some point more onerous controls will be appointed whether creators or backers agree, it's just good business sense for KS, much as how eventually Ebay had to get into the business of policing it's own bad sellers/buyers because they were facing a backlash due to high fraud levels and losing customers as a result.

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Post Posted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 4:53 pm 
 

Badmike wrote in $3,000 Call of Cthulhu Edition:Good points Zach, especially the last paragarph. When Ebay changed their feedback system to allow no negative freedback from sellers, and stopped allowing sellers to accept checks or money orders and use ONLY Paypal, I think that was a game changer.  I think we are going to see something like that happen with KS, there is still too much money left on the table that KS could get a part of....and I think at some point more onerous controls will be appointed whether creators or backers agree, it's just good business sense for KS, much as how eventually Ebay had to get into the business of policing it's own bad sellers/buyers because they were facing a backlash due to high fraud levels and losing customers as a result.

Mike B.


I tend to agree with the eBay comparison. No matter how hard you work to build a self-policing community there is always a point where a sociopath will find easy pray. After a critical mass of people/money it happens every time. I loved Usenet, then came the clowns and it became, well, something different. It was the same with WoW, in the beginning there was a real sense of community but then fake money became worth real money and low and behold there were those clowns that you thought you left on usenet or wherever.

I haven't even checked whether or not Kickstarter is a publicly traded company [they are not, just checked]. I wonder if there is any mechanism to know whether or not the UltraHype Million Dollar Mega Project winds up paying the same fees as everyone or is there already some behind the scenes machinations that adjust the playing field in ways that are more directly financial than simply overwhelming projects with unmatchable publicity.

I am not sure why I feel so suspicious. It only started after launching my own project. I am certainly very pleased with how that is progressing. Lack of sleep probably but I just can't put my finger on what else it might be. It just feels like the days right before someone told Metallica about Napster.

Z



  

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Post Posted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 2:03 pm 
 

Badmike wrote in $3,000 Call of Cthulhu Edition:I think in many ways, the rise of Kickstarter parallels the rise of Ebay.  


I had not thought about it that way, but it makes perfect sense.  I imagine Kickstarter will make changes like eBay made changes and some will be bad but most will be good.  Rules are always a two-edged sword, and it seems like they most often cut the honest people more than the dishonest.

Badmike wrote in $3,000 Call of Cthulhu Edition:The thing I would ask most people is to look at what you are backing, past the promises and shiny add ons, and decide if this is a company, project or person that really needs your dough.


I must confess that I instead think selfishly.   :oops:  I ask whether this is something I want to buy.  My second question is whether I think the company will ultimately deliver.  Unfortunately, this often leads towards the very problems you and Zach point out which is that customers like me often steer a place like Kickstarter more towards the big company, who doesn't need the money anyway, than the little guy.

Badmike wrote in $3,000 Call of Cthulhu Edition:The Reaper one, I'm sorry, it was a bunch of really shitty cheap plastic miniatures that everyone got caught up in that will undoubtedly sit in the buyer's closet until he tries to unload them years from now (and finds out their value is zero because no one wants a bunch of really shitty plastic minis).  Let me say it once again.  Really....shitty.....plastic....minis.  I have already seen a TON of buyer's remorse here and I think a little thought would have led to a better decision on many backer's parts.  


I bought into the Reaper Kickstarter because I thought it was an awesome deal, and because I wanted some of the minis.  I ended up selling the Vampire Kit for $150.00 plus postage and kept seven, large add-on minis.  What this means is that I ended up getting all my add on minis for negative $5.00 (In other words, I was paid to get what I wanted!).  Sure, there was a four month delay, but I was in no hurry.

I must also say that the quality of the minis are good.  I have yet to paint them, but I anticipate good success.  And this is from someone who has a large, lead, mini collection.  The advantages of light weight, resilience to damage, and reasonable cost are hard to beat.  If I were to start collecting minis all over, I would go with Bones.

I can see where some people have buyers remorse, or even a lot of people, but that was not my experience.   8)


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Post Posted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 2:17 pm 
 

benjoshua wrote in $3,000 Call of Cthulhu Edition:
Badmike wrote in $3,000 Call of Cthulhu Edition:The Reaper one, I'm sorry, it was a bunch of really shitty cheap plastic miniatures that everyone got caught up in that will undoubtedly sit in the buyer's closet until he tries to unload them years from now (and finds out their value is zero because no one wants a bunch of really shitty plastic minis).  Let me say it once again.  Really....shitty.....plastic....minis.  I have already seen a TON of buyer's remorse here and I think a little thought would have led to a better decision on many backer's parts.  


I bought into the Reaper Kickstarter because I thought it was an awesome deal, and because I wanted some of the minis.  I ended up selling the Vampire Kit for $150.00 plus postage and kept seven, large add-on minis.  What this means is that I ended up getting all my add on minis for negative $5.00 (In other words, I was paid to get what I wanted!).  Sure, there was a four month delay, but I was in no hurry.

I must also say that the quality of the minis are good.  I have yet to paint them, but I anticipate good success.  And this is from someone who has a large, lead, mini collection.  The advantages of light weight, resilience to damage, and reasonable cost are hard to beat.  If I were to start collecting minis all over, I would go with Bones.

I can see where some people have buyers remorse, or even a lot of people, but that was not my experience.   8)


I too, bought the Reaper Bones not because of the hype, but because it was a great way to a) get more figures for larger combat situations, b) get figures I didn't have in lead/pewter (e.g. rust monster, owl bear, demons, etc.), and c) get minis at a cost per figure that was beyond reasonable.  Yes, when my Vampire level arrived, I had a few figures that were bent or too small to use (familiars?) but overall, there are some badass, cool minis in there.  I've had more buyer's remorse with a 16 page b/w mod I paid $200 for.

Also, another point is that many of us do not think in terms of resale or the value of the minis years from now, but in getting minis to play with in their campaigns.  ;-)

~throwi

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Post Posted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 4:57 pm 
 

Have all the Reaper minis gone out?  I haven't received mine yet.  Except for Sophies  :)


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