beasterbrook wrote in $3,000 Call of Cthulhu Edition:first of all kickstarter doesn't take their 5% of the postage
ExTSR wrote in $3,000 Call of Cthulhu Edition:Point, certainly.But when I'm spending that kind of money (tho not in this case) I don't like nickel-and-diming tacked on. Not a dealbreaker, certainly. Just a bad taste. :/
Blackmoor wrote in $3,000 Call of Cthulhu Edition:I guess kickstarter is the new distribution and promotion network for role playing games!!Hell why not bypass all the distributors and stores that have been supporting this stuff for years.
Nogrod wrote in $3,000 Call of Cthulhu Edition:Blackmoor wrote in $3,000 Call of Cthulhu Edition:I guess kickstarter is the new distribution and promotion network for role playing games!!Hell why not bypass all the distributors and stores that have been supporting this stuff for years.I have mixed feelings on existing companies and their use of Kickstarter. At least in tabletop games...[edit- and strong, very wordy feelings about big companies in general on KS]On one hand, in our categories, we are hardly talking about mega-corporations. I read once on FB or something a statement to the effect of this isn't for huge companies like Reaper. When Reaper (or SJG or whatever) is considered to be huge by some observer then their world is kinda small. Success of companies in these categories (Niche hobby businesses) is important for keeping the entire hobby afloat and, apart from Hasbro and Games Workshop, I want to see nothing but success.Conversely, as game consumers, we help nobody by giving what is essentially a giant gift to an established company via a glorified pre-order system. I don't blame the companies for hedging risk but I agree with you that the secondary effect is harming local stores that often struggle keeping the lights on. This is double plus ungood but disruptive technologies and changes in business practices always seem that way when they happen.Consumers behave according to what they perceive as their own needs or best interest and rarely show any future time orientation. Or loyalty for that matter. I, with all my "college" economics credits, am no better when it comes to this. Even though I tell myself I am, it's just a lie. I thought badly of the "Bones KS" for about 5 days until it started to become a mind numbing behemoth of minis. I would never have bought any of them separately (Maybe Cthulu) but thinking I was getting a deal I pledged heavily. Now, closing in on a year later I have no minis yet and have passed up buying ones I actually wanted because I spent so much on other figurines earlier. Who wins? Not me, not Center Stage or Otherworld, not even Reaper. I think Reaper will not come out ahead after all is said and done. By flooding the market with an ungodly number of plastic figs they will find less need for that plastic injection machine than they expected- for their core business at least. So, again, who wins?Kickstarter.Very soon more very big companies will as well. Companies whose 24 hour electric bill is triple the size of Reapers lifetime cash flow.This is where Kickstarter is duplicitous as they constantly highlight that they are champions of the little guy, the starving artist or brilliant filmmaker who couldn't catch a break. If you look at projects they highlight it is always ones of the Dance Troupe from Detroit putting on some show or a woman making quilt patterns in Iowa. I am not saying anything that anyone who follows closely doesn't know but those projects fail all the time and pretending otherwise has costs.In fact there is a guy living 4 miles from me with a Kickstarter project for a children's book with exactly $25 in pledges and a single backer, me. In fact, after communicating with him, I found out that he saw a show on PBS about it and proceeded to spend a lot of time he didn't have putting this book together. He also spent time researching successful KS projects...like Veronica Mars and Penny Arcade. I feel sorry for him but he saw KS people on this respected TV show hyping how easy it was for him to get a project started and how a few little things can be all it takes. He, of course, was taken for a ride and has wasted time and money on a make-believe marketing campaign by Kickstarter. Even if he knew better and found a way to get a modicum of funding all KS needed was him and his project was for it to be launched. Once it launched they can keep up the myth that it KS for the little guy.BS. It is now all about the Veronica Mars type uber projects and what they bring in to Kickstarter which has given huge companies a method to conduct a transaction that if done on the street would be borderline illegal.I say all of this as a guy who uses and loves Kickstarter projects (not as much as Brette, but a great deal). I don't watch sports but I like rooting for the underdog and KS was a great way to do that. I have met many awesome people in forums and in person who have made the experience, thus far for me, one of the best of my life.My own Kickstarter has gone well (12 Days to go!) but that is the result of long planning, goodwill from solid people (Aceaum, NTRPG people, etc) and heavy personal investment. I am not going to make much money, though that was never the point. My goal was to make a commercial quality RPG product and not be broke when it was over and hopefully do it again.As I see it though the situation with Kickstarter is bad for me and bad, as Jeff stated, for things I love. As a middle of the road project from some unknown guy I suffer a non-trivial amount when companies like Chaosium and people like Sandy Peterson (Who I really like) are putting projects that up that were guaranteed to see the light of day and get favorable distribution sans Kickstarter. I don't think they cost me as much as some of the "successful" projects on the other side of the spectrum have. The ones whose only success is funding and that have no business being given money for anything, let alone something as complicated as big projects can become. Those are the poison that has kept the potential of Whisper & Venom lower than it could have been but I, honest to God, am not upset that I am not going to reach 35k or whatever. I am upset that Kickstarter takes zero responsibility for enabling swindlers like Mike Nystul to run projects, take their 5%, and allow him to run two more. Then after making backers afraid to back other new creators they make it harder by becoming, in effect, exactly what they claim they are not, a big storefront for established companies to bypass retailers.I still love backing projects and plan to continue but nothing good is going to come of this. Not unless Kickstarter starts taking a little (any?) responsibility for allowing bad creators to strike twice or for approving projects that any sane person would know was destined to fund and quickly drive their creators into bankruptcy.So without any great expertise I see one of two things happening.Either backers will go away after one missed promise to many...or enough money starts getting made that the SEC or the IRS take a good hard look at what is actually happening and the rules change. Those rules won't hurt big companies (they never do), they will however be crushing on people like me.Wow, all that typing to basically agree with Jeff...sigh, as if I don't have other things I should be doing. Obviously though, this strikes a nerve. I want Kickstarter to be what it claims to be, or at least force established companies to actually offer more than a t-shirt for what is nothing but a pre-order.Zach
Bracton wrote in $3,000 Call of Cthulhu Edition:Cynicism usually comes pretty naturally to me, but I tend to give Kickstarter a break here. ....[lots of good points]....I think the biggest risk in all of these KS projects arises from the drug-addict-like need to add more and more free stretch goals, in an effort to goose the total number of supporters and dollar amount. These add a lot more work for the sponsor, and because of the uncertainty tend to add a lot more complication than they can ever make up for in volume. I'd much prefer a smaller project delivered close to on time, than what seems like a bargain with a vast number of freebies, which then overwhelms the sponsor and leaves the project months and months behind schedule..
Badmike wrote in $3,000 Call of Cthulhu Edition:Good points Zach, especially the last paragarph. When Ebay changed their feedback system to allow no negative freedback from sellers, and stopped allowing sellers to accept checks or money orders and use ONLY Paypal, I think that was a game changer. I think we are going to see something like that happen with KS, there is still too much money left on the table that KS could get a part of....and I think at some point more onerous controls will be appointed whether creators or backers agree, it's just good business sense for KS, much as how eventually Ebay had to get into the business of policing it's own bad sellers/buyers because they were facing a backlash due to high fraud levels and losing customers as a result.Mike B.
Badmike wrote in $3,000 Call of Cthulhu Edition:I think in many ways, the rise of Kickstarter parallels the rise of Ebay.
Badmike wrote in $3,000 Call of Cthulhu Edition:The thing I would ask most people is to look at what you are backing, past the promises and shiny add ons, and decide if this is a company, project or person that really needs your dough.
Badmike wrote in $3,000 Call of Cthulhu Edition:The Reaper one, I'm sorry, it was a bunch of really shitty cheap plastic miniatures that everyone got caught up in that will undoubtedly sit in the buyer's closet until he tries to unload them years from now (and finds out their value is zero because no one wants a bunch of really shitty plastic minis). Let me say it once again. Really....shitty.....plastic....minis. I have already seen a TON of buyer's remorse here and I think a little thought would have led to a better decision on many backer's parts.