OSR checklist
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Post Posted: Sat May 05, 2012 8:06 pm 
 

I'm surprised that this really handy spreadsheet detailing all (most?) of the OSR items that have been released to date (600+!!!) hasn't been mentioned here yet.  Especially because Guy Fullerton does post here at times...

A link via Rob Conley's blog, because I can't find the original source:  http://batintheattic.blogspot.com/2012/ ... eline.html


I was surprised at how many of these I already have.  And thrilled that there aren't all THAT many more that I actually want!


Areas of interest/knowledge: Harn, Pendragon, WFRP, Ars Magica, anything BRP based, CoC, Runequest

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Post Posted: Sat May 05, 2012 8:22 pm 
 

I haven't introduced it formally yet, mainly because I'm not quite done with the "1.0 version". There are still a few areas of products that I haven't had time to add yet, I don't have all the date establishment details annotated, and I may also add some kind of print vs. pdf availability note. Once those are finished, I'll post some kind of formal announcement.

Though I certainly don't mind it when others mention it! :)


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Post Posted: Sun May 06, 2012 12:48 am 
 

*sigh*  So the work I did to customize it for my own needs... that will be fun to merge with the "final" version.   :D


Areas of interest/knowledge: Harn, Pendragon, WFRP, Ars Magica, anything BRP based, CoC, Runequest

Planning: BRP/Harn

  

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Post Posted: Tue May 15, 2012 7:41 am 
 

Great list!!! i went through it and found it extremely useful (i didnt know of the existance of several items...  :oops: ).

I have 2 question though:

1) what are the reasons for the C&C exclusion? I am not in the topic and i dont know what has been discussed about it...

2) i didnt find any ref to Swordplay & Spellcraft (http://elflairgames.blogspot.it/) ... did you exclude this game as well or is it simply missing?

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Post Posted: Tue May 15, 2012 1:10 pm 
 

aia wrote:Great list!!! i went through it and found it extremely useful (i didnt know of the existance of several items...  :oops: ).

Cool! :)

I have 2 question though:

1) what are the reasons for the C&C exclusion? I am not in the topic and i dont know what has been discussed about it...

Castles & Crusades is not a clone (or even a simulacrum) of Gygaxian-era D&D. It's true that C&C shares some elements with, and is somewhat inspired by Gygaxian-era D&D, but that doesn't sufficiently qualify it for inclusion on my list. C&C contains too many significant differences from the various Gygaxian-era versions of D&D.

2) i didnt find any ref to Swordplay & Spellcraft (http://elflairgames.blogspot.it/) ... did you exclude this game as well or is it simply missing?

It's excluded for now, but it's on my list of things to possibly add. Presently, I've drawn the line at versions of D&D that use the "Alternative Combat System," as opposed to the Chainmail combat system. I believe Swordplay & Spellcraft is a clone of the Chainmail combat system approach. It's various creative additions may (or may not) also disqualify it from inclusion.


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Post Posted: Tue May 15, 2012 1:28 pm 
 

Guy Fullerton wrote:Castles & Crusades is not a clone (or even a simulacrum) of Gygaxian-era D&D. It's true that C&C shares some elements with, and is somewhat inspired by Gygaxian-era D&D, but that doesn't sufficiently qualify it for inclusion on my list. C&C contains too many significant differences from the various Gygaxian-era versions of D&D.

.


What edition of C&C are you talking about? Guy, 1st edition C&C seemed to be AD&D with a few houserules.

I keep hearing about these new rule systems that claim to have reinvented the wheel or the internet, but all of them have simply stolen fire from Gygax and called it their own. C&C seems to be no different.


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Post Posted: Tue May 15, 2012 2:04 pm 
 

JasonZavoda wrote:What edition of C&C are you talking about? Guy, 1st edition C&C seemed to be AD&D with a few houserules.

I'm talking about all editions of C&C.

Seemingly innocuous differences have a surprisingly jarring effect on game play and the emergent behavior & attitude of the players. Examples of these small, but significant differences include:

- Players are entitled to choose any class and race combination, regardless of stat rolls.
- No level limits for non-human races.
- Saving throws do not automatically become (significantly) easier as attacker and defender *both* increase in level.
- The existence of the SIEGE system as a one-mechanic-fits-all resolution system.
- Domain establishment and management is not ingrained into the classes.
- It touts creation of the character's persona as the "most important step in character creation."
- Treasure acquisition is not, by explicit default, the primary means of acquiring xp.
- The C&C Player's Handbook offers guidance on "mood," "pace," and maintaining the "narrative" instead of how to be a successful adventurer.
- That raise dead is always successful, with no built-in chance of failure based on Con / Resurrection Survival.

Don't get me wrong; I can see why many people like C&C, and it does have many similarities with AD&D.

But when I feel the need to play with a retro-inspired game (as opposed to playing the actual vintage games), I choose something *much* closer to the source: Swords & Wizardry, OSRIC, Labyrinth Lord, etc.


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Post Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 12:34 am 
 

All great reasons, Guy, and spot on. C&C is not AD&D, nor is it "d20."

I would be very hesitant to include it in any "clone" or "simulacra" category since it tries harder to be "storybook," not chess.


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Post Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 12:38 am 
 

Guy Fullerton wrote:
JasonZavoda wrote:What edition of C&C are you talking about? Guy, 1st edition C&C seemed to be AD&D with a few houserules.

I'm talking about all editions of C&C.

Seemingly innocuous differences have a surprisingly jarring effect on game play and the emergent behavior & attitude of the players. Examples of these small, but significant differences include:

- Players are entitled to choose any class and race combination, regardless of stat rolls.
- No level limits for non-human races.
- Saving throws do not automatically become (significantly) easier as attacker and defender *both* increase in level.
- The existence of the SIEGE system as a one-mechanic-fits-all resolution system.
- Domain establishment and management is not ingrained into the classes.
- It touts creation of the character's persona as the "most important step in character creation."
- Treasure acquisition is not, by explicit default, the primary means of acquiring xp.
- The C&C Player's Handbook offers guidance on "mood," "pace," and maintaining the "narrative" instead of how to be a successful adventurer.
- That raise dead is always successful, with no built-in chance of failure based on Con / Resurrection Survival.

Don't get me wrong; I can see why many people like C&C, and it does have many similarities with AD&D.

But when I feel the need to play with a retro-inspired game (as opposed to playing the actual vintage games), I choose something *much* closer to the source: Swords & Wizardry, OSRIC, Labyrinth Lord, etc.


But that is exactly my point. C&C is nothing but an almost word for word copy of the AD&D PHB with some variants thrown in. Your points are all variations from AD&D not unique elements in themselves and not the bulk of the book. Of course OSRIC is an almost word for word copy of the PHB, MM and parts of the DMG with as few variants thrown in as possible.


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Post Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 1:08 am 
 

copycat wrote:All great reasons, Guy, and spot on. C&C is not AD&D, nor is it "d20."

I would be very hesitant to include it in any "clone" or "simulacra" category since it tries harder to be "storybook," not chess.


Very much agree.

  

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Post Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 6:33 am 
 

Gentlemen, there is officially only one edition of C&C. The current printing does have some substantial changes to it (new barbarian, illusionist healing), but the authors don't consider that enough to call it a new edition.



  

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Post Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 10:38 am 
 

JasonZavoda wrote:
Guy Fullerton wrote:I'm talking about all editions of C&C.

Seemingly innocuous differences have a surprisingly jarring effect on game play and the emergent behavior & attitude of the players. Examples of these small, but significant differences include:

- Players are entitled to choose any class and race combination, regardless of stat rolls.
- No level limits for non-human races.
- Saving throws do not automatically become (significantly) easier as attacker and defender *both* increase in level.
- The existence of the SIEGE system as a one-mechanic-fits-all resolution system.
- Domain establishment and management is not ingrained into the classes.
- It touts creation of the character's persona as the "most important step in character creation."
- Treasure acquisition is not, by explicit default, the primary means of acquiring xp.
- The C&C Player's Handbook offers guidance on "mood," "pace," and maintaining the "narrative" instead of how to be a successful adventurer.
- That raise dead is always successful, with no built-in chance of failure based on Con / Resurrection Survival.

Don't get me wrong; I can see why many people like C&C, and it does have many similarities with AD&D.

But when I feel the need to play with a retro-inspired game (as opposed to playing the actual vintage games), I choose something *much* closer to the source: Swords & Wizardry, OSRIC, Labyrinth Lord, etc.


But that is exactly my point. C&C is nothing but an almost word for word copy of the AD&D PHB with some variants thrown in. Your points are all variations from AD&D not unique elements in themselves and not the bulk of the book. Of course OSRIC is an almost word for word copy of the PHB, MM and parts of the DMG with as few variants thrown in as possible.


I kind of agree with Jason here.  C&C is as much AD&D as Swords & Wizardry is OD&D.....both are really house-ruled systems of the original. The difference is mainly in tone vs mechanics, I think. But taken as a whole C&C is much closer to an AD&D simulacrum than something to be given it's own unique category (not d20, not a clone or simulation).  The average C&C adventure is as easy to pick up and play as your average OSRIC, LL or S&W module. and moreso than any D20 type product.

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