sauromatian wrote:Such is the problem when discussing IP law with amateurs. They have no idea what the laws actually do. Backup copies? Expiration or abandonment? Never heard of it, you must be a thief.
MetamorphosisSigma wrote:I for one would love to know (for sure) what is allowed and what isn't. Do the .pdfs of modules and rulebooks that I downloaded and printed out "illegally" as reading/"let the kids trash 'em" copies count as legitimate backups? (I own originals of everything, but the printouts are not copies I made myself of the items). If so, do the electronic .pdf and the printout of same count as one or two backups? Is two one too many, or is that okay? In general, I want to be doing the "right thing". However, short of hiring an IP attorney or getting authoritative answers somewhere else (nothing I've ever read here qualifies, IMO), I'm left with the pragmatic, "What can I get away with?" option that I'm not terribly comfortable with. Is there even a definitive answer to these questions?
mbassoc2003 wrote:So if someone buys something and it's missing the maps or the back pages, or players handout, we shouldn't pass along copies to help them out, because in doing so we are stealing from the author/artist?
Prufrock wrote:I'm not an expert, but the way I understand the law is that you are allowed to make a backup and even prinit it out for your kids to use. The violation happens when someone who does not hold the copyright profits from the sale of "copied or PDFed" work. Therefore denying the rightful holder of copyright the money.
Sea-to-sky-games wrote:You raised a moral question. Whether it's efficient or legal, doesn't necessarily change that question. IP rights have to be asserted - a court has to determine whether they've been violated or not. So a lot of it comes down to "what can I get away with?"It seems the question is thus: is it moral for one to reproduce - for someone else - something of which my ownership could be reasonably contested?
MetamorphosisSigma wrote:But IP is a lot broader than copyright (which is I think the crux of the issue we're discussing). No one is planning on publishing something that incorporates a bunch of WotC's (for instance) intellectual property. We're just talking about copying part of an item to make it complete, or making a photocopy/pdf backup.Now *I'm* getting way into amateur territory, but IIRC there's a certain dollar amount threshold ($2,500?) where it becomes a felony even without a complaint by the copyright holder.
bbarsh wrote:In short, if you did not purchase a product - PDF included - from a publisher (or retailer), it is not legal to obtain it. By publisher/retailer I mean someone who is authorized by the IP holder to distribute the item.Simply owning a print version of a product does not entitle anyone to grab a PDF off the net. A person does not gain any right to a PDF unless the IP holder distributes the PDF with the original or subsequent purchase. As to the question of a back up copy, there is no such right with printed material. You can't just reproduce items or PDFs in case your house burns down. Sounds a bit harsh, but that is the way it is. Can you make back up copies of a PDF you legally purchased? I think that is ok so long as you do not distribute it.
You want to make back up copies of stuff you legally obtained, go ahead. No problem with that. But going online to get back ups is not legal. This may seem like splitting hairs, but there it is. The wonderful world of IP.
Personally, if I did not buy it, I don't feel I have any right to have it. That may make me a dinosaur in this Internet world, but here I am.
ExTSR wrote:Gee, I remember when this thread was about eBay. And things for sale.
Prufrock wrote:I'm not an expert, but the way I understand the law is that you are allowed to make a backup and even prinit it out for your kids to use. The violation happens when someone who does not hold the copyright profits from the sale of "copied or PDFed" work. Therefore denying the rightful holder of copyright the money.I bought a copy of Tombs of Valla off ebay minus the maps. One of the members here sent me a pdf of the maps. I've printed the maps out and placed them with my copy of Tombs of Valls. I've noterized the maps as "copies". If the maps are part of the copyright held by Clegg than I do not think any violation occurred. However, if the maps had a separate copyright then I think there could be problem. Especially is the copyright holder had a website up where you could buy copies of the map.Martin
bbarsh wrote:As to the question of a back up copy, there is no such right with printed material. You can't just reproduce items or PDFs in case your house burns down. Sounds a bit harsh, but that is the way it is.
rhynne wrote:Hey Sardan,Not sure what it is to the UK, but it was around US$48.00 to Hong Kong for the shipping... Best regards,Ronald
lokiwookie wrote:** eBay auction listing blocked. Please enable cookies in your browser for this site and for eBay! **There was a BIN at $50, I don't understand why the bidder didn't buy it...
sauromatian wrote:That's the way it is if "libraries/archives/museums/educators" are strictly professional & public institutions. Which assumes a strong role for government involvement in public cultural life - usually a big-government, nanny-state approach. Is that what you wish to advocate?It's also the argument for restricting the 2nd Amendment to government-controlled militias. Pretty liberal.Robert Bork interpreted the 1st Amendment to apply only to professional, accredited journalists. The rest of us have no freedom of speech, while our freedom of religion is only what established churches tell us we can believe. Bork was a conservative, but do you find that reason enough to agree?