mbassoc2003 wrote:Resurrecting the usual PDF debate - Is it immoral for people to trade PDF versions of maps and map booklets for all the items that cross eBay sans maps. After all, the seller has not bought the maps, but, the IP owner, the author, the artist and the original publishing house are also receiving nothing from the transaction anyways.

So, is the distribution of PDF maps wrong? Surely if people knew they could lay their hands on the maps, it would ease the sale of items without maps.
If it's not wrong, then what about other player handout books?
What about a person who is missing the centre pages of text?

No.  The author is probably not losing out on any revenue, especially if the item is no longer published.  This could stir up an endless debate, but I doubt many authors would consider it immoral for someone to request a piece of one of their works in PDF format.  You cannot typically buy a piece of the item by itself.  Now, if the map was considered the whole item, then that would probably be considered over the line.

Perhaps some authors would disagree.  I would respect that opinion since it is their right to protect their works.

Hey, maybe I just brought up a good revenue stream...  Authors selling bits and pieces of their original works, for a bargain price, to people in need.  Kind of like an aftermarket spare parts distribution...

And it begins...



First person I've noticed selling preorders for the Players Handbook reprint.



http://www.ebay.com/itm/Dungeons-Dragon ... 35b9542b35

SimperingToad wrote:And it begins...

First person I've noticed selling preorders for the Players Handbook reprint.

** eBay auction listing blocked.  Please enable cookies in your browser for this site and for eBay! **

Postage to the UK is a bit high.

Sea-to-sky-games wrote:The owners of the intellectual property rights (authors, artists, etc) have already been compensated for used book sales (in whole or in part) in the form of higher prices at the initial point of sale. [i.e., imagine prices if there were no used market]. So the authors have no gripe - legal or moral - about transactions in the secondary market. They are being compensated.

Distributing copyrighted material, however, without the consent of the author(s) is a different matter - this is not strict exchange but duplication. You'd have to check to what degree "fair use" would cover this, but I suspect that, IF copyright owners asserted their rights (and that's a big IF), printing the full maps and covers without the author(s)' consent would be copyright violation.

So is theft moral if the person(s) you are stealing from likely doesn't care? Unless we know for certain, I would say it's immoral.

So if someone buys something and it's missing the maps or the back pages, or players handout, we shouldn't pass along copies to help them out, because in doing so we are stealing from the author/artist?

mbassoc2003 wrote:So if someone buys something and it's missing the maps or the back pages, or players handout, we shouldn't pass along copies to help them out, because in doing so we are stealing from the author/artist?

Such is the problem when discussing IP law with amateurs. They have no idea what the laws actually do. Backup copies? Expiration or abandonment? Never heard of it, you must be a thief.

sauromatian wrote:
Such is the problem when discussing IP law with amateurs. They have no idea what the laws actually do. Backup copies? Expiration or abandonment? Never heard of it, you must be a thief.

Thanks for bringing those notions up. They sound like they may help mbassoc2003 figure out his quandary.

MetamorphosisSigma wrote:
I for one would love to know (for sure) what is allowed and what isn't. Do the .pdfs of modules and rulebooks that I downloaded and printed out "illegally" as reading/"let the kids trash 'em" copies count as legitimate backups? (I own originals of everything, but the printouts are not copies I made myself of the items). If so, do the electronic .pdf and the printout of same count as one or two backups? Is two one too many, or is that okay?

In general, I want to be doing the "right thing". However, short of hiring an IP attorney or getting authoritative answers somewhere else (nothing I've ever read here qualifies, IMO), I'm left with the pragmatic, "What can I get away with?" option that I'm not terribly comfortable with. Is there even a definitive answer to these questions?

I'm not an expert, but the way I understand the law is that you are allowed to make a backup and even prinit it out for your kids to use.  The violation happens when someone who does not hold the copyright profits from the sale of "copied or PDFed" work.  Therefore denying the rightful holder of copyright the money.

I bought a copy of Tombs of Valla off ebay minus the maps.  One of the members here sent me a pdf of the maps.  I've printed the maps out and placed them with my copy of Tombs of Valls.  I've noterized the maps as "copies".  If the maps are part of the copyright held by Clegg than I do not think any violation occurred.  However, if the maps had a separate copyright then I think there could be problem.  Especially is the copyright holder had a website up where you could buy copies of the map.

Martin

Prufrock wrote:I'm not an expert, but the way I understand the law is that you are allowed to make a backup and even prinit it out for your kids to use.  The violation happens when someone who does not hold the copyright profits from the sale of "copied or PDFed" work.  Therefore denying the rightful holder of copyright the money.

I don't think the "for profit" angle is correct. The FBI warning at the beginning of every DVD I own has that little clause, stating that copyright violations include, "distribution without profit." (or some such).

MetamorphosisSigma wrote:
I for one would love to know (for sure) what is allowed and what isn't. Do the .pdfs of modules and rulebooks that I downloaded and printed out "illegally" as reading/"let the kids trash 'em" copies count as legitimate backups? (I own originals of everything, but the printouts are not copies I made myself of the items). If so, do the electronic .pdf and the printout of same count as one or two backups? Is two one too many, or is that okay?

In general, I want to be doing the "right thing". However, short of hiring an IP attorney or getting authoritative answers somewhere else (nothing I've ever read here qualifies, IMO), I'm left with the pragmatic, "What can I get away with?" option that I'm not terribly comfortable with. Is there even a definitive answer to these questions?

In short, if you did not purchase a product - PDF included - from a publisher (or retailer), it is not legal to obtain it. By publisher/retailer I mean someone who is authorized by the IP holder to distribute the item.

Simply owning a print version of a product does not entitle anyone to grab a PDF off the net. A person does not gain any right to a PDF unless the IP holder distributes the PDF with the original or subsequent purchase.

As to the question of a back up copy, there is no such right with printed material. You can't just reproduce items or PDFs in case your house burns down. Sounds a bit harsh, but that is the way it is. Can you make back up copies of a PDF you legally purchased? I think that is ok so long as you do not distribute it. But seriously, no one is coming after anyone for photocopying something you bought for personal use. It is the point where the item is distributed that is the real problem. You want to make back up copies of stuff you legally obtained, go ahead. No problem with that. But going online to get back ups is not legal. This may seem like splitting hairs, but there it is. The wonderful world of IP.

Personally, if I did not buy it, I don't feel I have any right to have it. That may make me a dinosaur in this Internet world, but here I am.