Interesting Non-TSR Items Formerly on eBay
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Post Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2005 2:33 am 
 

dbartman wrote:First, I'm afraid you have blown this out of proportion.

A $200 difference, mental or real, is worth discussing/debating.
Please don't tell me I'm blowing anything out of proportion in that context.
And at the least you're giving me a very bad taste to go with this win...

A lot of this also impacts on future confidence in collecting, which I'm rather shaky on in the context of this radical overhaul.

Hey, but presume silence to mean everyone else is happy, no?

dbartman wrote:
FYI, Tadashi's copy was graded as fine. Unlike what was mentioned in the description.

The records that I am currently maintaining are not reflected in what is on The Acaeum.

:?:

You never said that was your personal opinion.

"FYI, Tadashi's copy was graded as fine" looks very "official" to me.

dbartman wrote:Also, the grading conventions that I'm using are not published on The Acaeum. They were developed by the Valuation Board members. Please see the following information for more details on what is transpiring:

The Acaeum Valuation Board

I hope this provides some enlightenment.

Please don't appear to treat me as stupid or use that "form letter"/talking-down tone of voice.
Do you really think I could possibly have missed that thread?


Keeping the full grading criteria hidden from the list is NOT acceptable, IMHO.
The one's we've currently got to use are wishy-washy at best; almost overlapping in some cases and depending on glasses/x-ray vision for others.
Page Not Found
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dbartman wrote:Why do you dispute this? You bought the PoVQ based on the facts that were available to you. There was no guarantee that the item was NM as indicated. In your case, perhaps condition was the ultimate factor, but not necessarily to everyone else.

The extreme price/grade variations on the new-look Acaeum valuation listings are clearly wrong in that case, since all it takes are a few people to go for the rares which might turn up in poorer condition to blow the mechanically computed values straight out of the water.
As will happen, of course.

But the extra sensitivity which has just been introduced for the higher grades has just made things even more awkward than they already were given that people DO base their bids on the information available here.

(And no, neither did I think it was "NM as indicated". :roll:).

  

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Post Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2005 4:02 am 
 

So does anyone know what grading Burnies copy was given?


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Post Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2005 6:10 am 
 

mbassoc2003 wrote:So does anyone know what grading Burnies copy was given?

Presumably the same grade as the one I won, once I'm finished with the hairdrier. (Thanks again to Mike <invincible> for the tip).

:?

===

WDs #12 upwards. OKish copies in a short US auction, so might well be worthwhile for interested parties given current UK prices!
eBay listings
$2.99 each, with 2 3/4 days to go.

(No legal pdfs yet available ;))

  

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Post Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2005 6:50 am 
 

harami2000 wrote:
mbassoc2003 wrote:So does anyone know what grading Burnies copy was given?

Presumably the same grade as the one I won, once I'm finished with the hairdrier. (Thanks again to Mike <invincible> for the tip).


You really get pissed at that sort of thing, don't you? :( Presumably mine is the Mint copy sold in February 03. That ties up with the price and sale date on Burnies index card in the module. :D If mine is mint (and other than the slightest brushing to one corner it appears to be), the one you've bought doesn't look that far off. I'd swap mint for VF/EX to get a folder like that. :D


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Post Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2005 7:21 am 
 

mbassoc2003 wrote:You really get pissed at that sort of thing, don't you? :(

Just a tad.
Getting "Could it be in VF condition? Perhaps, but probably not based on the visible damage to the folder" forced upon me by someone using the "one strike and you're out" approach and ignoring the condition of contents is kinda jarring...

<clipped PM>

This method of taking any fault as indicated on a lower grade to knock an item down, rather than the cumulation of faults is also very bad news since it permits people to play power-grading issues, especially if they have vested interests (if they don't yet have the module or have fluked the purchase of a truly "mint" rarity).

If instead of taking any fault from a grade to knock an item down, you look at the absence of faults, you can see why I might take offense to casually having VG-F slapped on this. (Remember, an item can have ALL these faults and still squeak the grading, so long as it has no faults associated with a lower grading. This, of course, is pure nonsense, since it plays to a hypothetic continuum!!).

Playing the same trick of grading from the picture, with a few of the descriptive hints as back-up.

> VERY GOOD: This is the typical "average wear" grade.

Not a chance. This one's never been used in its life.

> Spines show stress and may be slightly "frayed" or have minor tears.

No "stress" marks, no fraying, no tears, no edge wear, etc.

> Module covers can have "splits" as long as 2" (5cm).

Heaven forbid!

> Corners are often rounded, creased or frayed and edges may show similar wear.

No corner rounding, fraying "or similar wear".

Just those creases from one-off damage and no sign that anyone has tried to "fix" them inexpertly.

> Other common flaws are "color fading", small stains, small tears,

No color fading, no small stains, no small tears, to cover or contents.

> and writing on interior pages (perhaps even some highlighting).

You gotta be kidding!

> A slight warping and/or faint "musty odor" (usually from storage in a basement) may also be allowed.

No warping or dampness.

So, a single hit from that entire list....

How then can the module possibly be suggested to be within a light-year of "VG"?

IMHO, an enhanced/modified version of the old banknote grading standards ( see foot of Grading Coins ) would serve our needs far better than an attempt to group us in with slabbed comics and all the evils that entails.
The two areas of "collectables" bear very little resemblance either in market profile or physical artifact.

The likes of this current grading/valuation schema "mess" is only damaging to confidence amongst serious "collectors", aficionados and those who use the books solely for roleplaying purposes(!); and I place a higher value on that than mere cash, alone.

  


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Post Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2005 7:38 am 
 

mbassoc2003 wrote:Presumably mine is the Mint copy sold in February 03. That ties up with the price and sale date on Burnies index card in the module. :D

*g*. I didn't have any money back then... or else I'd've pounced one of those "second prints" which came up later in the year.

mbassoc2003 wrote:If mine is mint (and other than the slightest brushing to one corner it appears to be), the one you've bought doesn't look that far off. I'd swap mint for VF/EX to get a folder like that. :D

Congrats that the one you've got being so close to Mint. Burnie Bros. are usually pretty good on condition evaluation, anyhow... :)
(Oh, are you including the condition of the ziploc, btw? *g*. Sorry, Ian!).

Did you check out Mike <invincible>'s comments about the foil stamping on the cover?
Palace of the Vampire Queen

If the copy were VF/EX (folder) plus EX/NM (contents), I think you'd be rightly chuffed to be able to do such a swap.
I'm 100% certain the other seven copies of the so-called "2nd print" were also not Mint * 3, NM & EX * 3 by the new grading schema, if harshly applied. An over-sized folder with loose leaf pages is gonna be a sucker for damage, especially from back as early as 1976 with no known "stashes", afaik.

Anyhow; there are far too many thoughts and opinions on the status of the black folder which aren't feeding through to the listings.
(The selection of whose comments make it onto the official site often seems to leave a lot to be desired, IMHO... ST1 being a case in point ;))

  

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Post Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2005 8:05 am 
 

I see improv's point on the black folder. I had similar opinions regarding time and expence back on the mid-late '70s. Very expensive cover.

I don't agree with his take on double-sided printing. The cost of the print process is not reduced. Printing is done on one side, and the sheets are stacked and reprinted the other side some time later. The printing time takes longer as you can't have multiple presses running different sheets simultaniously. With double-sided printing you also need to take care with paper weight and thickness.

I can see there being a reduction in postal cost with double-sided printing, but I would suggest that TSR were experimenting with various printing suppliers and techniques in those early days.

The double-sided press printed run in the black folder seems the most polished presentation of the module. The double-sided run without the folder IMO seems to be a quick release either pre- or post- black folder (either to get it out in time for something, or to keep up with unexpected demand).

The single sided printing anomoly (is there evidence of there being more than one?) may just be that. A sample run? A master copy?

The one you've just bought does not look like it has enough pages to be printed single-sided. I would say that the double-sided black folder edition was TSR's intended presentation of the module.


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Post Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2005 8:29 am 
 

mbassoc2003 wrote:I see improv's point on the black folder. I had similar opinions regarding time and expence back on the mid-late '70s. Very expensive cover.

Personal experience? 8)

mbassoc2003 wrote:The one you've just bought does not look like it has enough pages to be printed single-sided. I would say that the double-sided black folder edition was TSR's intended presentation of the module.

Unfortunately the review in NFB doesn't say how many pages went with their black folder (distributed via TSR and thence on to Games Workshop).

There are single-sided copies associated with both stated- "first" & "second" prints.
As mentioned, that's one of the points which has been foxing me with regards the dating/print order since it seems to cut across the observations and documentary evidence that the foldered versions came first/were the "official" distribution release/whatever.
Date-wise I can't readily make that tally with the single-sided versions being too "bulky" for the folder, either.

Of course, the stated "first print" single-sided copies might just have lost their folders... that's the "easy solution" to such added "complexity", I think.
(Or else the printers just, repeatedly and randomly, got fed up with manual duplexing, as suggested before!).

Sample run or master copy?
Is an interesting hypothesis since Tadashi had one. (In that case, I was thinking more that an incomplete version being received was indicative that it was bought rather than a review/pre-release version. Could be viewed either way, I s'pose).
Would certainly have preferred a single-sided copy, here, in terms of added scarcity and "interest"- regardless of "value".

Who had the other single-sided copy(ies), originally?

  

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Post Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2005 8:52 am 
 

Tadashi's is the only single-sided copy I was aware of. All the others I've heard of are double-sided. Mine is double-sided. Are you aware of any other single-sided copies, with or without folders.

The yellow coversheet is quite distinctive in itself. It's not a regular yellow paper, and certainly would have been hard to get ahold of in the '70s. The photos all amke it out to be a regular yellow paper, but mine is a very bright, almost neon fleurescent yellow. I'd be interested to find out whether there is variation in the colouring of the yellow front sheets.

Maybe I should buy a few more for comparison. :D


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Post Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2005 10:24 am 
 

Mine is single sided, black foldered.
Harami is right, that coin standard seems to be damn close to what comics use, and I see no reason why the standard for comics couldn't be used. However, I'd rather see NO "estimated values" at all.
Again, this is why I was against the idea of giving "estimated values" in the first place. Just list auction and CONFIRMED sale values, and let the market do it's thing, and have the bidder send pictures to prove condition. I don't think it's anyone's job, or right, to be estimating conditions and value. If I hear one more "Well, the Acaeum says it is worth this much.......", I might just go postal.


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Post Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2005 10:36 am 
 

mbassoc2003 wrote:Tadashi's is the only single-sided copy I was aware of. All the others I've heard of are double-sided. Mine is double-sided. Are you aware of any other single-sided copies, with or without folders.

Add Matthias Bock's contentious copy to any list...
http://www.stud.uni-hamburg.de/users/af ... others_lz/
http://www.stud.uni-hamburg.de/users/af ... ww_vq1.gif

(looks more like a proof/working copy to me, rather than a released version, so nothing to worry about, IMHO, in terms of "1st" vs. "2nd" vs. whatever printings...).

  


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Post Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2005 10:38 am 
 

Deadlord36 wrote:Mine is single sided, black foldered.

How "full" does that make the folder, Frank?

(Can see it on your wall, but is a bit far away to tell... ;))

  

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Post Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2005 10:45 am 
 

I see no reason why 'estimated values' should appear on the site. They are subjective based on the opinions of the estimator.

At 34 pages with a spiral binding, MB's copy looks like a proof copy at best. If it could be authenticated it would be useful.


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Post Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2005 12:25 pm 
 

bclarkie wrote:1st print Traveller Box Set here with a $100.00 BIN:

cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem& ... eName=WDVW

Umm, I wish the guy luck.  I'm sure I can find a bunch of other 1st print box sets on ebay for a tenth of that price.  And they're likely to have other supplements with them.



  


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Post Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2005 2:45 pm 
 

En Garde! Frank....


http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 5166006537

You're bidding on a photocopy, btw... :?

Is obvious that excessive carousing ain't good for the eyes. *chuckles*. Sorry! ;)
(Know full well I've fallen for the same trick, myself- at far greater cost, too, thanks to my unforgiving "friend" in Japan).


*woot*. The seller's got a genuine copy of Overstreet Guide #2, though. From the days before craziness took hold (IMHO)...

  

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Post Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2005 3:17 pm 
 

harami2000 wrote:En Garde! Frank....You're bidding on a photocopy, btw... :?


And the seller's from Pennsylvania... :D


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Post Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2005 3:22 pm 
 

mbassoc2003 wrote:
harami2000 wrote:En Garde! Frank....You're bidding on a photocopy, btw... :?


And the seller's from Pennsylvania... :D


:evil: Great.....


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Post Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2005 7:21 pm 
 

Not anymore. Thanks for the heads up. I have no idea why I even bid on it, I'm selling my miniature wargame stuff anyways.


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Post Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2005 7:29 pm 
 

Deadlord36 wrote:Not anymore. Thanks for the heads up. I have no idea why I even bid on it, I'm selling my miniature wargame stuff anyways.

Glad you got the point...

No minis in there, but good fun nonetheless. (Hrr... was unfortunately a bit late to all that myself, PBM-side).
*avoids temptation to look up any play-by-PC En Garde! campaigns which may be around*

  


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Post Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2005 7:31 pm 
 

mbassoc2003 wrote:I see no reason why 'estimated values' should appear on the site. They are subjective based on the opinions of the estimator.

At 34 pages with a spiral binding, MB's copy looks like a proof copy at best. If it could be authenticated it would be useful.

Remember, Ian; some quality mods by big name companies were released with spiral bindings, if not the PotVQ...

Like this one; http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 5956064874 . *g*

  
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