Old School White Box Sets
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Post Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 6:39 pm 
 

Zenopus wrote:A new OD&D retroclone in a white box game from Brave Halfling is now available: Delving Deeper Boxed Set. It's a clone of the LBBs (pre-supplements) and replaces the Swords & Wizardry Whitebox published previously by BH. $39.95 before 11/15, $49.95 after.

Page for Ordering

About (see here for pictures).



(I have no affiliation with this product)


Thanks for the info!
I'll be looking forward to getting a copy.

Also: Just out of curiosity,
why would we be surprised that Initiative is included?
Wasn't a roll for initiative part of OD&D?

~Keith


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Post Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 7:42 pm 
 

Keith the Thief wrote:Also: Just out of curiosity,
why would we be surprised that Initiative is included?
Wasn't a roll for initiative part of OD&D?


While Chainmail used a d6 roll to determine who went first, it's not explicitly mentioned in the three LBBs. It was later clarified in an issue of Strategic Review.

Here's a summary I posted on the OD&D Discussion forums earlier this year. It focuses on the use of Dex in initiative but will give you the general idea:

Chainmail - d6 roll + other factors
1974 D&D [LBBs] - unspecified, implies dexterity has an influence
Strategic Review #2 - clarifies d6 roll + optional dexterity influence
Eldritch Wizardry - alt system where dexterity can influence missile fire/spells, but not melee
Metamorphosis Alpha - pure dexterity
Holmes Basic - pure dexterity (though all spells and missile fire precede combat)
Gamma World - dexterity for first round, after that d6 with dexterity influence
AD&D - dexterity plays minimal role in initiative (just missile fire in certain situations?)


Zenopus Archives website & blog: Exploring the Underworld of Holmes Basic D&D. Holmes Ref: Reference Sheets for Holmes Basic Referees, also compatible with OD&D plus the Greyhawk supplement

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Post Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 9:53 am 
 

Zenopus wrote:
While Chainmail used a d6 roll to determine who went first, it's not explicitly mentioned in the three LBBs. It was later clarified in an issue of Strategic Review.

Here's a summary I posted on the OD&D Discussion forums earlier this year. It focuses on the use of Dex in initiative but will give you the general idea:

Chainmail - d6 roll + other factors
1974 D&D [LBBs] - unspecified, implies dexterity has an influence
Strategic Review #2 - clarifies d6 roll + optional dexterity influence
Eldritch Wizardry - alt system where dexterity can influence missile fire/spells, but not melee
Metamorphosis Alpha - pure dexterity
Holmes Basic - pure dexterity (though all spells and missile fire precede combat)
Gamma World - dexterity for first round, after that d6 with dexterity influence
AD&D - dexterity plays minimal role in initiative (just missile fire in certain situations?)


That's interesting.  
Very interesting.
Our first group played in 1978, and I distinctly remember initiative rolls.
In fact, I even remember our DM explaining the idea behind it.
But at the time, we didn't have all the rule books.

This is rhetorical, but it makes me wonder where our group's DM got the notion of using it.
Maybe from Strategic Review.

It's been too long since I've read MA or GW, so I can't speak to that with any confidence, but I would've sworn initiative rolls were in the 1E DMG.
But, I'm often wrong.
My wife reminds me of that frequently.

~Keith


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Post Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 5:57 pm 
 

Keith the Thief wrote: I would've sworn initiative rolls were in the 1E DMG.
But, I'm often wrong.
My wife reminds me of that frequently.

~Keith


They are, it's just that dexterity plays a minimal roll as compared to Holmes, where dexterity is the only determinant of melee combat order (although it's arguable whether spells, missiles, and movement cycle through in dex order or by initiative in Holmes).

In AD&D you roll 1d6 to determine which segment in a 10 segment round you act in.

In the first three D&D books, though, there was nothing about the sequence of battle within a melee round except the reference to Chainmail (which, as Zenopus said, used a d6 to see who went first).

  

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Post Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:24 pm 
 

Mythmere1 wrote:
They are, it's just that dexterity plays a minimal roll as compared to Holmes, where dexterity is the only determinant of melee combat order (although it's arguable whether spells, missiles, and movement cycle through in dex order or by initiative in Holmes).

In AD&D you roll 1d6 to determine which segment in a 10 segment round you act in.

In the first three D&D books, though, there was nothing about the sequence of battle within a melee round except the reference to Chainmail (which, as Zenopus said, used a d6 to see who went first).


Yep, that all rings a bell now.
It's amazing how fast this stuff comes back to you.  
Well, that and getting off my lazy arse and reading the DMG myself.


Since you mentioned spells, did you guys use any kind of house rules for helping magic users get more spells at lower levels?

I never liked the "lug around spell book/memorize/fire magic missile" sequence of events.
But my group never could agree on how to change the MU rules.
So, we'd wind up sticking with canon, although we did add cantrips when those came out in Dragon.

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Last edited by Keith the Thief on Mon Dec 26, 2011 12:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
  

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Post Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:35 pm 
 

Zenopus wrote:A new OD&D retroclone in a white box game from Brave Halfling is now available: Delving Deeper Boxed Set. It's a clone of the LBBs (pre-supplements) and replaces the Swords & Wizardry Whitebox published previously by BH. $39.95 before 11/15, $49.95 after.

Page for Ordering

About (see here for pictures).

(I have no affiliation with this product)


Busted open the piggy bank and just bought mine!  :-)


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Post Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 1:50 pm 
 

Mythmere1 wrote:In AD&D you roll 1d6 to determine which segment in a 10 segment round you act in.


It was more you rolled 1d6 to see which segment your OPPONENT acted in. If you rolled a 6 your opponent acted in segment 6. Which is why higher is better in the AD&D initiative roll.

  


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Post Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2011 4:14 pm 
 

robertsconley wrote:
It was more you rolled 1d6 to see which segment your OPPONENT acted in. If you rolled a 6 your opponent acted in segment 6. Which is why higher is better in the AD&D initiative roll.


You're right. I always forget that part.

  


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Post Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 8:16 pm 
 

I have previews of the Delving Deeper Digest booklets (that go in the box) up on my my bog now. I will have a video showing the boxed sets and their contents next week.

http://carpgp.blogspot.com/2011/11/delv ... overs.html


Brave Halfling Publishing

  

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Post Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 8:33 pm 
 

Mark Allen is slowly but surely becoming one of my favorite fantasy artists.  Very nice!  :D


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Post Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 2:23 pm 
 

Was wondering where my box set was.  According to Brave Halfling websit the box set is going thru another edit and will be shipped out in early 2012.


Martin

  


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Post Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 7:04 pm 
 

Keith the Thief wrote:Since you mentioned spells, did you guys use any kind of house rules for helping magic users get more spells at lower levels?
~Keith


Use scrolls!

I created a house rule so that with proper materials at hand, a magic user who is one experience level (or more) beyond the minimum required to cast a certain level of spells is able to scribe a spell of that level to a scroll.
The magic user must memorize the spell to scribe, just as though the intent was to cast it normally.  The spell is expended from the magic user's memory upon scribing it to the scroll.

  

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Post Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 7:33 pm 
 

Prufrock wrote:Was wondering where my box set was.  According to Brave Halfling websit the box set is going thru another edit and will be shipped out in early 2012.


Martin


Thanks for the update.
Looking forward to it!


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Post Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 7:39 pm 
 

Serian wrote:
Use scrolls!

I created a house rule so that with proper materials at hand, a magic user who is one experience level (or more) beyond the minimum required to cast a certain level of spells is able to scribe a spell of that level to a scroll.
The magic user must memorize the spell to scribe, just as though the intent was to cast it normally.  The spell is expended from the magic user's memory upon scribing it to the scroll.


That's a good idea.
I'd been thinking a staff might be good workaround.
The staff could have charges (i.e, spells) available to the MU.
And that would give the MU a Gandalf look, but I hadn't figure out how to incorporate the MU's Intelligence into that scheme.

In your scroll idea the MU could gain some advantage from a higher intelligence.


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Post Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 8:34 pm 
 

Keith the Thief wrote:
That's a good idea.
I'd been thinking a staff might be good workaround.
The staff could have charges (i.e, spells) available to the MU.
And that would give the MU a Gandalf look, but I hadn't figure out how to incorporate the MU's Intelligence into that scheme.

In your scroll idea the MU could gain some advantage from a higher intelligence.


Here's a homebrew stick for you, too (vintage 1980's, sometime from my high school campaign days):

Staff of Spell Storing

       This magical staff functions much like a ring of spell storing.  It can store either cleric spells, magic user spells, or any combination of the two.  It is usable by a member of either the cleric or magic user class, or any subclass thereof, regardless of the type of spells stored.  The staff can contain any number of first through fourth level spells, up to a limit of 25 total spell levels.  The spells stored in the staff function at the 8th level of magic use for all spells stored, regardless of the level of the caster who stored them in the staff.  Casting a spell from the staff requires no components other than the staff itself, however standard device activation time still applies to initiative.  
       An attempt to store a spell of 5th or higher level of any type in the staff , or attempting to store more spell levels than its capacity, will cause it to explode as per a retributive strike.  The wielder may also voluntarily break the staff in a retributive strike.  (For information regarding the retributive strike, see the description of the staff of the magi; count each spell level in the staff as equal to one charge.)  If a staff of spell storing is left "empty" of spells for longer than 30 days, it loses all magical properties and becomes a normal, nonmagical staff.

  

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Post Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 8:40 pm 
 

In the opposing direction, how long would it remain charged without expenditure or usage of the stored spells before there is a magical decay affect, and the stored magics drain away or do something else?

Serian wrote:
Here's a homebrew stick for you, too (vintage 1980's, sometime from my high school campaign days):

Staff of Spell Storing

       This magical staff functions much like a ring of spell storing.  It can store either cleric spells, magic user spells, or any combination of the two.  It is usable by a member of either the cleric or magic user class, or any subclass thereof, regardless of the type of spells stored.  The staff can contain any number of first through fourth level spells, up to a limit of 25 total spell levels.  The spells stored in the staff function at the 8th level of magic use for all spells stored, regardless of the level of the caster who stored them in the staff.  Casting a spell from the staff requires no components other than the staff itself, however standard device activation time still applies to initiative.  
       An attempt to store a spell of 5th or higher level of any type in the staff , or attempting to store more spell levels than its capacity, will cause it to explode as per a retributive strike.  The wielder may also voluntarily break the staff in a retributive strike.  (For information regarding the retributive strike, see the description of the staff of the magi; count each spell level in the staff as equal to one charge.)  If a staff of spell storing is left "empty" of spells for longer than 30 days, it loses all magical properties and becomes a normal, nonmagical staff.


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Post Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 9:03 pm 
 

Scathaigh wrote:In the opposing direction, how long would it remain charged without expenditure or usage of the stored spells before there is a magical decay affect, and the stored magics drain away or do something else?



It is an interesting concept.  
If one uses simply the established rules and examples in the DMG, a charged magical device can remain so indefinitely, as there is no precedent for such magical decay.  
On the other hand, to use such a ruling would certainly keep the players attentive. :-)

  

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Post Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 9:53 pm 
 

Serian wrote:
It is an interesting concept.  
If one uses simply the established rules and examples in the DMG, a charged magical device can remain so indefinitely, as there is no precedent for such magical decay.  
On the other hand, to use such a ruling would certainly keep the players attentive. :-)


And adding a half-life like that could help add balance if it's is making magic users too strong.

And what if it's just "low"?
Can you get a jump start from another magic user?
Say using Jumper Cables of Vecna? :)


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Post Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 11:15 pm 
 

Scathaigh wrote:In the opposing direction, how long would it remain charged without expenditure or usage of the stored spells before there is a magical decay affect, and the stored magics drain away or do something else?



Given such a rule...wouldn't one expect those magic items, long lost in dungeons deep, to be totally decayed and worthless when the adventurers find them?


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Post Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 11:27 pm 
 

FormCritic wrote:
Given such a rule...wouldn't one expect those magic items, long lost in dungeons deep, to be totally decayed and worthless when the adventurers find them?


Good point.

Perhaps the magic items would be like firearms.
If you found a 100-year-old pistol in a cave it probably wouldn't work, right?
But it could be cleaned and restored.

Maybe the staves could work the same way, and the MU would have to get the artifact back to a city do it could be restored and somehow linked to him, like a "familiar".

Mostly thinking out loud here and fat-fingering from my phone.

Interesting topic.


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