DCC RPG beta this Wed
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Post Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 1:48 pm 
 

Sardan wrote:Surely a d3 and d5 are both easy.  d3 is a d6 but if the result is 4-6 subtract three.  d5 is a d10 but if the result is 6-10 subtract 5.

An easy alternative is:

d3

1,2 = 1
3,4 = 2
5,6 = 3

d5

1,2 = 1
3,4 = 2
5,6 = 3
7,8 = 4
9,0 = 5

I'm only saying the software I used in order to create the dice chart didn't cover d3 and d5. As you can see if you look at it for a moment, I chose to express the same thing you did for d3, but in shorthand. The   software, Smartroller, was designed to show the probabilities of rolling a specific number on standard dice. For the dice chart, of which the full version goes up to 100, I used it to find out what dice would provide the appropriate result.

The software cannot do d3 and d5 because there is no way to simulate them using the standard dice. For that matter, d2 (aka flip a coin) can't be simulated using the standard dice either.

While I chose to use a d20/5 for results of 1-5, d10 clearly works as well. In other words, I forgot about using a d10! Needless to say, 1d10/2, round up works just as well, though the d10 wasn't part of OD&D as we all know, given the source for the original dice. :)




Last edited by Traveller on Fri Jun 10, 2011 2:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.
  

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Post Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 1:51 pm 
 

Harley Stroh wrote:
Thank you, Traveller. I think you're right, dice work arounds would make a good appendix.

//H

Sardan's usage of 1d10/5 needs to be added to the d5 roll options, and I need to edit my post to reflect it.

I think the biggest issue you're going to encounter is in the dice, since a lot of gaming stores only carry the standard dice and not the unusual ones. Having an appendix like this would make the game more accessible, which is something I believe you guys want.



  

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Post Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 6:36 pm 
 

But many of those are not, as you said, even distributions, so it's not really right.

Everything can be correctly simulated with regular dice, producing an even distribution, except the d7 and d14.  The best that can be done there is d8, reroll 8s (and then add a control die for d14).


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Post Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 1:52 am 
 

The law of averages would disagree with you. Average die results are...

d3 = 2
d4 = 2.5
d5 = 3
d6 = 3.5
d7 = 4
d8 = 4.5
d10 = 5.5
d12 = 6.5
d14 = 7.5
d16 = 8.5
d20 = 10.5
d24 = 12.5
d30 = 15.5

...and here's the math showing that the die rolls presented in my earlier post agree with the averages presented above.

d3 = 1d6/2. round up
d5 = 1d20/4, round up or 1d10/2, round up
d7 = 2d4-1. Average is 4 (2.5 + 2.5 - 1).
d14 = (1d8+2d4)-2 or (2d6+1d4)-2. Average is 7.5 (4.5 + 2.5 + 2.5 - 2) or (3.5 + 3.5 + 2.5 - 2).
d16 = 3d6-2. Average is 8.5 (3.5 + 3.5 + 3.5 - 2).
d24 = (1d10+2d8)-2 or (2d10+1d6)-2. Average is 12.5 (5.5 + 4.5 + 4.5 - 2) or (5.5 + 5.5 + 3.5 - 2)
d30 = (1d20+2d6)-2, (1d12+2d10)-2, or (2d12+1d8)-2. Average is 15.5 (10.5 + 3.5 + 3.5 - 2), (6.5 + 5.5 + 5.5 - 2), or (6.5 + 6.5 + 4.5 - 2).

Other than the fact my die roll calculations function on a bell curve rather than a linear progression, the averages are identical. Thus the results should be satisfactory for anyone not having funky dice, like me (d30 excepted).



  


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Post Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 5:14 am 
 

I don't think d6/2 or d20/4 ar actually the same as my methods.  There is no rounding in my methods.

  

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Post Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 9:41 am 
 

Traveller wrote:Other than the fact my die roll calculations function on a bell curve rather than a linear progression, the averages are identical. Thus the results should be satisfactory for anyone not having funky dice, like me (d30 excepted).


Yes, I follow your math.  Yes, the averages are the same.  But that isn't the same as an even distribution.  If the expected results want the average number to also be the most frequent, that may be okay, but if it's just an unweighted list of 14 choices, then that doesn't work.

[math nerd alert]

Rolling 2d4-1 generates the following range:

1,2,2,3,3,3,4,4,4,4,5,5,5,6,6,7

The average is still 4, but the chances of rolling the extremes are 1 in 16, not 1 in 7 as they need to be.


You can't generate an even distribution for 1-N, without a die of xN sides, where N is prime (or a multiple) and x is a positive whole number.

Or said differently, if the factors of N include anything above 5, you can't properly roll it on a standard set of RPG dice (d4, d6, d8, d10, d12, d20).  This is why I can roll 1-500 (5*5*5*2*2) if I want but not 1-700 (7*5*5*2*2).

This is also why I actually need only a d6 (or d12) and a d20 (or d10) to generate everything else in the standard set.


So for the first ten primes:

2 - d4, d6, d8, d10, d12, d20
3 - d6, d12
5 - d10, d20
7 - none
11 - none
13 - none
17 - none
19 - none
23 - none
29 - none

And thus the multiples (14, 22, 51, etc.) would fail as well.

This is why there are no 1-76 tables anywhere...

[/math nerd alert]


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Post Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 9:59 am 
 

TheHistorian wrote:
[math nerd alert]

You can't generate an even distribution for 1-N, without a die of xN sides, where N is prime (or a multiple) and x is a positive whole number.

[/math nerd alert]


You made my morning. :)


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Post Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 10:00 am 
 

Sardan wrote:I don't think d6/2 or d20/4 ar actually the same as my methods.  There is no rounding in my methods.

d6/2, round up: die roll is 5. 5/2 is 2.5, rounded up to 3. That is no different than using a chart and declaring results of 5 and 6 to be 3. The actual results are .5, 1, 1.5, 2, 2.5, and 3. The rounding up only turns the .5 into a nice round number so the result would be 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, and 3.



  

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Post Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 10:23 am 
 

TheHistorian wrote:Yes, I follow your math.  Yes, the averages are the same.  But that isn't the same as an even distribution.  If the expected results want the average number to also be the most frequent, that may be okay, but if it's just an unweighted list of 14 choices, then that doesn't work.

Obviously better results would be had by having the funky dice. I don't deny that because I agree that a linear progression is better. But the point still remains that Joe Average, who isn't a math nerd by the way, needs a way to generate these numbers in game because he doesn't have the funky dice. The control die method doesn't work with d7 and d14, by your own admission. So what do you do?

2d4-1 for d7, and one of the two choices for d14, and you play.

Seriously, I understand your entire argument here. I honestly do. But Joe Average needs to be able to play without funky dice until he gets them. It's not an optimal solution, and isn't intended to be an optimal solution. Goodman games wants people to buy the dice, and giving people an optimal solution doesn't allow for that.



  

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Post Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 11:46 am 
 

smarmy1 wrote:
You made my morning. :)


I'll go find something to deshrink, in order to keep balance in the universe. :wink:




Traveller wrote:The control die method doesn't work with d7 and d14, by your own admission. So what do you do?

Goodman games wants people to buy the dice, and giving people an optimal solution doesn't allow for that.


I think you've nailed it there.  There is no point to this game mechanic other than to make them more money, because you need something additional (most easily sourced from them) to play.

If someone wants to defend NEEDING the d7 to be in the game, that's fine, but I think a convincing case of why there had to be a 14.29% chance of something instead of 16.67% or 12.5% chance will be challenging.

For the entire history of RPGs, what has been needed to play?  A rulebook, paper, pencil, and the standard six (or fewer) dice.  That's it.  Adventures, character sheets, miniatures, screens, d30, battle mats, etc. are all extras and optional.  And that, I think, is really where my irritation lies.


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Post Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 12:02 pm 
 

Hrmph. Using 1d8 for 1-7 (and rerolling 8's) may seem suboptimal to the purist, but the time needed for rerolls is trivial (praps 2 minutes per month realtime).

And I keep a d7 handy at all times anyway.
But then I'm prolly a hardcore exception.

  

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Post Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 1:52 pm 
 

Whatever Goodman does at this point the weird dice have been a success. They seem to have stirred up more debate, interest and passion than any other part of the game so far. How many more people have now heard about the game and downloaded the beta than they could have reached this quickly otherwise?

In the niche of our hobby how much advertising is really word of mouth? With Dragon and Dungeon gone where else do companies advertise now?

Will this be the first mainstream B/X or AD&D clone to hit store shelves? It should definitely attract a good chunk of older players but it might also be the vehicle to introduce younger gamers to this older style of rules.

I am extremely hopeful about the DCCrpg game system, though the main appeal for me personally is the thought of new modules rather than rules.


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Post Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 7:04 pm 
 

TheHistorian wrote:There is no point to this game mechanic other than to make them more money, because you need something additional (most easily sourced from them) to play.

Actually, there is a point to the mechanic: when the standard dice were introduced to the Dungeons & Dragons game for the first time inevitably there were comments about their "weird" shapes compared to a d6. The usage of the funky dice simply continues that meme.

You are basing your point of view on preconceived notions that have been built up over the last thirty plus years. Goodman has chosen to put funky dice in as a requirement, which takes those dice out of the optional category and makes them mandatory. Honestly, so what if the dice are needed in order to ensure all is right in DCC world? TSR sold dice. So can Goodman, if they choose to. So what is the REAL source of your irritation? Do you feel that Goodman requiring funky dice is somehow slaughtering a sacred cow?

If that is the case, perhaps more sacred cows should be slaughtered.

As an aside, not every game in role playing history required dice, therefore you cannot list dice as something required to play every role playing game. Both Amber and Marvel Universe RPGs eschewed dice. In the case of Amber it was cooperative play. Marvel Universe was about resource management.

DCC players have two choices here.
  • They can purchase the dice, which is something I suspect the core fans of the game will buy without an issue.
  • They can use the advice given to them in the book (or on here) on how to generate the numbers using standard dice, which will appeal to the casual players looking for something different.

Maybe I don't understand where you're coming from after all, because I don't see a problem with what Goodman is doing, and I haven't even read the PDF yet.



  

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Post Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 9:40 pm 
 

Traveller wrote:Actually, there is a point to the mechanic: when the standard dice were introduced to the Dungeons & Dragons game for the first time inevitably there were comments about their "weird" shapes compared to a d6. The usage of the funky dice simply continues that meme.


And there was some dissatisfaction when the d10 was added to the mix of of Platonic solids.  I would have had no problem with it, because it didn't break anything and was completely optional.  Still is.

I cannot think of another reasonably successful, or even memorable, RPG that added dice to the mix.



As an aside, not every game in role playing history required dice, therefore you cannot list dice as something required to play every role playing game. Both Amber and Marvel Universe RPGs eschewed dice. In the case of Amber it was cooperative play. Marvel Universe was about resource management.


True, but a game deleting one of the standard items is really not the same as a game adding to the list.


Maybe I don't understand where you're coming from after all, because I don't see a problem with what Goodman is doing, and I haven't even read the PDF yet.



My problem is that it's a complication with no real point for the consumer.  Nothing is gained by this, except as Jason pointed out, maybe some publicity.  That's great for Goodman, but doesn't do anything for us.


Anyway, I'm done talking about this topic.  Some people will not care, some people will, and some people will have a different issue with it.  I'm not advocating anyone else to think a certain way, just to read it for themselves and make their own decision.  I'm highly unlikely to be a customer for this item, and I stated a few reasons why.  I still hope Goodman does well with it.


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Post Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 11:26 pm 
 

By your own words, every RPG in history has required the following items: rulebook, paper, pencils, and dice. I have shown you two games that eliminate the dice. Therefore, your statement is demonstrably false, since not every RPG in history requires dice. A game adding something to the mix is not unheard of either. Just look at pre-Supplement 1 OD&D, which only required a d6. When Supplement I was released, suddenly a d4, d8, d12(?), and d20 were required to go with the d6. That is a significant addition, and is as significant an addition as DCC requiring funky dice. Yet neither you nor I have ever played Dungeons & Dragons using only a d6. We've always used the platonic solids. After that came the one non-platonic solid: the d10.

People objected to the dice back when they were introduced for Dungeons & Dragons. You're objecting to the funky dice now. Times may change, but the gripes remain the same. The only real difference is that thirty years from now, no one is likely to remember the DCC RPG.

I haven't read the PDF so I can't say one way or another about whether the "complication" is pointless or not. But have you given any thought to the very real possibility that the DCC RPG isn't really geared for us? After all, Goodman Games made its bread and butter by, in simple language, publishing twisted conversions of established modules for the d20 System.



  

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Post Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 12:16 am 
 

Traveller wrote:By your own words, every RPG in history has required the following items: rulebook, paper, pencils, and dice. I have shown you two games that eliminate the dice. Therefore, your statement is demonstrably false, since not every RPG in history requires dice. A game adding something to the mix is not unheard of either. Just look at pre-Supplement 1 OD&D, which only required a d6. When Supplement I was released, suddenly a d4, d8, d12(?), and d20 were required to go with the d6. That is a significant addition, and is as significant an addition as DCC requiring funky dice. Yet neither you nor I have ever played Dungeons & Dragons using only a d6. We've always used the platonic solids. After that came the one non-platonic solid: the d10.

People objected to the dice back when they were introduced for Dungeons & Dragons. You're objecting to the funky dice now. Times may change, but the gripes remain the same. The only real difference is that thirty years from now, no one is likely to remember the DCC RPG.

I haven't read the PDF so I can't say one way or another about whether the "complication" is pointless or not. But have you given any thought to the very real possibility that the DCC RPG isn't really geared for us? After all, Goodman Games made its bread and butter by, in simple language, publishing twisted conversions of established modules for the d20 System.


Having read the pdf I can say that it is geared for 'us' and the DF and OSR crowds as well. I just hope that a DCC rulebook sitting on the shelves will appeal to younger players as well. It may.

The point about bringing up the 'funky' dice and objecting to them is that this is a beta playtest ruleset looking for feedback. I think that before anyone says they won't buy the final version of the rulebook they should take a moment and send Goodman their reaction and objections. In the end they may very well find a game more to their liking (though you can't please everyone).


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Post Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 8:26 am 
 

Traveller wrote:...
People objected to the dice back when they were introduced for Dungeons & Dragons. You're objecting to the funky dice now. Times may change, but the gripes remain the same. The only real difference is that thirty years from now, no one is likely to remember the DCC RPG.
...


Not sure if the thirty year thing will be accurate or not. How many other RPG's from the 70's through early 80's can you remember off the top of your head?* If they do it correctly, I think they'll fill a slot that is currently missing from most local gaming stores. I have 4 stores that are within 30 or so minutes from me. Not one has any new "old school" rules or manuals. If you are new to RPGs in my area, you're going to be stuck with WOTC or PAIZO if you want to buy locally. If this is marketed correctly, I can see it taking off.

* the ones I can remember off the top of my head: tunnels & trolls, runequest, traveller, rolemaster, warhammer, cthulhu, bushido, thieves world...more if I took time to actually think about it

  


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Post Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 7:09 pm 
 

To bad they wont have copies available in time for Gen Con.  I've got it downloaded and will give it a quick read but I'm not so sure about the variable spell effects (another layer of complexity and page flipping that might become tedious IMO).  Like the race as class it could be ignored but then why don't we just break out a different game?  I do like the art though, nice to see something similar to the 1E art style (lots of different artists and styles).


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Post Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 3:35 pm 
 

I just finished reading the beta rules, and I must say that I am rather impressed. I especially enjoyed the magic system, as it makes spell casting a rather dangerous and chaotic affair, reminding one of the nature of magic as presented in H.P. Lovecraft and Clark Ashton Smith's weird yarns. Even though I will probably not the use the rules system as written, I will most definitely be incorporating several elements from the game into my 1st Edition AD&D game. I also found the rules to be an entertaining read, the designer having a distinctive voice that is both humorous and scholarly at the same time. In other words, the book reads like the Hackmaster GMG but without all of the corny puns.

Specific elements from the rules I enjoyed are as follows:

1. Spell Corruption Table
2. Spell Fumble Table
3. Deity Disapproval Table
4. Supernatural Patron Rules for Arcane Spellcasters
5. Mighty Deeds of Arms: A nice set of rules for abjudicating special actions by PCs such as complicated acrobatic moves and called shots.

Some Elements I didn't particularly care for:

1. Spell Dueling Rules: I found the rules to be a bit too convoluted for my tastes with too much book-keeping involved.
2. Critical Hit Tables: Even though I fully realize that many RPG rule systems over the years have used critical hit mechanics, meaning that players seem to enjoy the complexity and variety they add, I have never particularly cared for them. It can make the game too deadly and unpredictable in my opnion. That being said, the specific consequences for critical hits detailed on the various tables in the book are quite creative and well-written. The consequences for a critical hit as detailed in the tables would make for some interesting trap effects.  

Thanks for reading,
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Post Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 1:30 am 
 

Munafik wrote:Specific elements from the rules I enjoyed are as follows:

1. Spell Corruption Table
2. Spell Fumble Table
3. Deity Disapproval Table
4. Supernatural Patron Rules for Arcane Spellcasters
5. Mighty Deeds of Arms: A nice set of rules for abjudicating special actions by PCs such as complicated acrobatic moves and called shots.

IMHO creative DMs and players should already do similar things while playing.  Making such things mandatory brings more roleplaying back to combat, albeit heavy-handedly when compared to most modern RPGs.

  
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