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Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 12:48 am

TheHistorian wrote:For me, it's the d7 and d14. Everything else we can simulate on two dice ( e.g. d16 = d8 with d6 control die: 1-3 +0, 4-6 +8 ), but there is no clean way to roll a d7 (because it's a prime number), and no, rolling a d8 and rerolling 12.5% of the time doesn't work for me.

Years ago, as an exercise, I created a die chart.

Ever had a problem where you would create a table for an RPG, and just couldn't fill the last few slots, or only wanted a certain number of possible results?

The following table will show you what dice to roll to get a result of 1 -- X, where X is the number in the die type on the left. When there are several possible ways, just use the one you wish to use, as all the possible combinations require the least amount of dice as possible for the result number. (NOTE: these methods do not yield results in a linear curve such as rolling a single die with the appropriate number of sides, unless only one die is rolled.)

d3 and d5 couldn't be simulated using the program I used to generate the chart. I have provided a solution below. It works, but I can understand why the program I used couldn't generate such a solution.

d3 = 1d6/2. round up d5 = 1d20/4, round up or 1d10/2, round up (thanks to Sardan for the d10 version) d7 = 2d4-1 d14 = (1d8+2d4)-2 or (2d6+1d4)-2 d16 = 3d6-2 d24 = (1d10+2d8)-2 or (2d10+1d6)-2 d30 = (1d20+2d6)-2, (1d12+2d10)-2, or (2d12+1d8)-2

Harley, you might want to think about modifying the advice given in the Funky Dice section to incorporate this stuff.

What sort of gamer doesn't like bizarre dice, convoluted math or overly complex charts?

I mean, that's half the fun, right?

"But I have watched the dragons come, fire-eyed, across the world."

Sardan
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Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 4:01 am

Surely a d3 and d5 are both easy. d3 is a d6 but if the result is 4-6 subtract three. d5 is a d10 but if the result is 6-10 subtract 5.

An easy alternative is:

d3

1,2 = 1
3,4 = 2
5,6 = 3

d5

1,2 = 1
3,4 = 2
5,6 = 3
7,8 = 4
9,0 = 5

Harley Stroh
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Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:38 am

Traveller wrote:Years ago, as an exercise, I created a die chart.

Ever had a problem where you would create a table for an RPG, and just couldn't fill the last few slots, or only wanted a certain number of possible results?

The following table will show you what dice to roll to get a result of 1 -- X, where X is the number in the die type on the left. When there are several possible ways, just use the one you wish to use, as all the possible combinations require the least amount of dice as possible for the result number. (NOTE: these methods do not yield results in a linear curve such as rolling a single die with the appropriate number of sides, unless only one die is rolled.)

d3 and d5 couldn't be simulated using the program I used to generate the chart. I have provided a solution below. It works, but I can understand why the program I used couldn't generate such a solution.

d3 = 1d6/2. round up d5 = 1d20/4, round up d7 = 2d4-1 d14 = (1d8+2d4)-2 or (2d6+1d4)-2 d16 = 3d6-2 d24 = (1d10+2d8)-2 or (2d10+1d6)-2 d30 = (1d20+2d6)-2, (1d12+2d10)-2, or (2d12+1d8)-2

Harley, you might want to think about modifying the advice given in the Funky Dice section to incorporate this stuff.

Thank you, Traveller. I think you're right, dice work arounds would make a good appendix.

//H

Traveller
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Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 1:48 pm

Sardan wrote:Surely a d3 and d5 are both easy. d3 is a d6 but if the result is 4-6 subtract three. d5 is a d10 but if the result is 6-10 subtract 5.

An easy alternative is:

d3

1,2 = 1 3,4 = 2 5,6 = 3

d5

1,2 = 1 3,4 = 2 5,6 = 3 7,8 = 4 9,0 = 5

I'm only saying the software I used in order to create the dice chart didn't cover d3 and d5. As you can see if you look at it for a moment, I chose to express the same thing you did for d3, but in shorthand. The software, Smartroller, was designed to show the probabilities of rolling a specific number on standard dice. For the dice chart, of which the full version goes up to 100, I used it to find out what dice would provide the appropriate result.

The software cannot do d3 and d5 because there is no way to simulate them using the standard dice. For that matter, d2 (aka flip a coin) can't be simulated using the standard dice either.

While I chose to use a d20/5 for results of 1-5, d10 clearly works as well. In other words, I forgot about using a d10! Needless to say, 1d10/2, round up works just as well, though the d10 wasn't part of OD&D as we all know, given the source for the original dice.

Last edited by Traveller on Fri Jun 10, 2011 2:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Traveller
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Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 1:51 pm

Harley Stroh wrote: Thank you, Traveller. I think you're right, dice work arounds would make a good appendix.

//H

Sardan's usage of 1d10/5 needs to be added to the d5 roll options, and I need to edit my post to reflect it.

I think the biggest issue you're going to encounter is in the dice, since a lot of gaming stores only carry the standard dice and not the unusual ones. Having an appendix like this would make the game more accessible, which is something I believe you guys want.

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Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 6:36 pm

But many of those are not, as you said, even distributions, so it's not really right.

Everything can be correctly simulated with regular dice, producing an even distribution, except the d7 and d14. The best that can be done there is d8, reroll 8s (and then add a control die for d14).

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Traveller
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Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 1:52 am

The law of averages would disagree with you. Average die results are...

...and here's the math showing that the die rolls presented in my earlier post agree with the averages presented above.

d3 = 1d6/2. round up
d5 = 1d20/4, round up or 1d10/2, round up
d7 = 2d4-1. Average is 4 (2.5 + 2.5 - 1).
d14 = (1d8+2d4)-2 or (2d6+1d4)-2. Average is 7.5 (4.5 + 2.5 + 2.5 - 2) or (3.5 + 3.5 + 2.5 - 2).
d16 = 3d6-2. Average is 8.5 (3.5 + 3.5 + 3.5 - 2).
d24 = (1d10+2d8)-2 or (2d10+1d6)-2. Average is 12.5 (5.5 + 4.5 + 4.5 - 2) or (5.5 + 5.5 + 3.5 - 2)
d30 = (1d20+2d6)-2, (1d12+2d10)-2, or (2d12+1d8)-2. Average is 15.5 (10.5 + 3.5 + 3.5 - 2), (6.5 + 5.5 + 5.5 - 2), or (6.5 + 6.5 + 4.5 - 2).

Other than the fact my die roll calculations function on a bell curve rather than a linear progression, the averages are identical. Thus the results should be satisfactory for anyone not having funky dice, like me (d30 excepted).

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Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 5:14 am

I don't think d6/2 or d20/4 ar actually the same as my methods. There is no rounding in my methods.

TheHistorian
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Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 9:41 am

Traveller wrote:Other than the fact my die roll calculations function on a bell curve rather than a linear progression, the averages are identical. Thus the results should be satisfactory for anyone not having funky dice, like me (d30 excepted).

Yes, I follow your math. Yes, the averages are the same. But that isn't the same as an even distribution. If the expected results want the average number to also be the most frequent, that may be okay, but if it's just an unweighted list of 14 choices, then that doesn't work.

[math nerd alert]

Rolling 2d4-1 generates the following range:

1,2,2,3,3,3,4,4,4,4,5,5,5,6,6,7

The average is still 4, but the chances of rolling the extremes are 1 in 16, not 1 in 7 as they need to be.

You can't generate an even distribution for 1-N, without a die of xN sides, where N is prime (or a multiple) and x is a positive whole number.

Or said differently, if the factors of N include anything above 5, you can't properly roll it on a standard set of RPG dice (d4, d6, d8, d10, d12, d20). This is why I can roll 1-500 (5*5*5*2*2) if I want but not 1-700 (7*5*5*2*2).

This is also why I actually need only a d6 (or d12) and a d20 (or d10) to generate everything else in the standard set.

You can't generate an even distribution for 1-N, without a die of xN sides, where N is prime (or a multiple) and x is a positive whole number.

[/math nerd alert]

You made my morning.

Hello Mrs. Cleaver, Theodore.

Gee, Mrs. Cleaver ... That certainly is a lovely dress.

Traveller
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Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 10:00 am

Sardan wrote:I don't think d6/2 or d20/4 ar actually the same as my methods. There is no rounding in my methods.

d6/2, round up: die roll is 5. 5/2 is 2.5, rounded up to 3. That is no different than using a chart and declaring results of 5 and 6 to be 3. The actual results are .5, 1, 1.5, 2, 2.5, and 3. The rounding up only turns the .5 into a nice round number so the result would be 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, and 3.

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Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 10:23 am

TheHistorian wrote:Yes, I follow your math. Yes, the averages are the same. But that isn't the same as an even distribution. If the expected results want the average number to also be the most frequent, that may be okay, but if it's just an unweighted list of 14 choices, then that doesn't work.

Obviously better results would be had by having the funky dice. I don't deny that because I agree that a linear progression is better. But the point still remains that Joe Average, who isn't a math nerd by the way, needs a way to generate these numbers in game because he doesn't have the funky dice. The control die method doesn't work with d7 and d14, by your own admission. So what do you do?

2d4-1 for d7, and one of the two choices for d14, and you play.

Seriously, I understand your entire argument here. I honestly do. But Joe Average needs to be able to play without funky dice until he gets them. It's not an optimal solution, and isn't intended to be an optimal solution. Goodman games wants people to buy the dice, and giving people an optimal solution doesn't allow for that.

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Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 11:46 am

smarmy1 wrote: You made my morning.

I'll go find something to deshrink, in order to keep balance in the universe.

Traveller wrote:The control die method doesn't work with d7 and d14, by your own admission. So what do you do?

Goodman games wants people to buy the dice, and giving people an optimal solution doesn't allow for that.

I think you've nailed it there. There is no point to this game mechanic other than to make them more money, because you need something additional (most easily sourced from them) to play.

If someone wants to defend NEEDING the d7 to be in the game, that's fine, but I think a convincing case of why there had to be a 14.29% chance of something instead of 16.67% or 12.5% chance will be challenging.

For the entire history of RPGs, what has been needed to play? A rulebook, paper, pencil, and the standard six (or fewer) dice. That's it. Adventures, character sheets, miniatures, screens, d30, battle mats, etc. are all extras and optional. And that, I think, is really where my irritation lies.

Areas of interest/knowledge: Harn, WFRP, Ars Magica, anything BRP based such as CoC, Runequest, Pendragon and all their related games

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Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 12:02 pm

Hrmph. Using 1d8 for 1-7 (and rerolling 8's) may seem suboptimal to the purist, but the time needed for rerolls is trivial (praps 2 minutes per month realtime).

And I keep a d7 handy at all times anyway.
But then I'm prolly a hardcore exception.

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Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 1:52 pm

Whatever Goodman does at this point the weird dice have been a success. They seem to have stirred up more debate, interest and passion than any other part of the game so far. How many more people have now heard about the game and downloaded the beta than they could have reached this quickly otherwise?

In the niche of our hobby how much advertising is really word of mouth? With Dragon and Dungeon gone where else do companies advertise now?

Will this be the first mainstream B/X or AD&D clone to hit store shelves? It should definitely attract a good chunk of older players but it might also be the vehicle to introduce younger gamers to this older style of rules.

I am extremely hopeful about the DCCrpg game system, though the main appeal for me personally is the thought of new modules rather than rules.

"You get more with a kind word and an excruciator than with just a kind word."

Traveller
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Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 7:04 pm

TheHistorian wrote:There is no point to this game mechanic other than to make them more money, because you need something additional (most easily sourced from them) to play.

Actually, there is a point to the mechanic: when the standard dice were introduced to the Dungeons & Dragons game for the first time inevitably there were comments about their "weird" shapes compared to a d6. The usage of the funky dice simply continues that meme.

You are basing your point of view on preconceived notions that have been built up over the last thirty plus years. Goodman has chosen to put funky dice in as a requirement, which takes those dice out of the optional category and makes them mandatory. Honestly, so what if the dice are needed in order to ensure all is right in DCC world? TSR sold dice. So can Goodman, if they choose to. So what is the REAL source of your irritation? Do you feel that Goodman requiring funky dice is somehow slaughtering a sacred cow?

If that is the case, perhaps more sacred cows should be slaughtered.

As an aside, not every game in role playing history required dice, therefore you cannot list dice as something required to play every role playing game. Both Amber and Marvel Universe RPGs eschewed dice. In the case of Amber it was cooperative play. Marvel Universe was about resource management.

DCC players have two choices here.

They can purchase the dice, which is something I suspect the core fans of the game will buy without an issue.

They can use the advice given to them in the book (or on here) on how to generate the numbers using standard dice, which will appeal to the casual players looking for something different.

Maybe I don't understand where you're coming from after all, because I don't see a problem with what Goodman is doing, and I haven't even read the PDF yet.

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Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 9:40 pm

Traveller wrote:Actually, there is a point to the mechanic: when the standard dice were introduced to the Dungeons & Dragons game for the first time inevitably there were comments about their "weird" shapes compared to a d6. The usage of the funky dice simply continues that meme.

And there was some dissatisfaction when the d10 was added to the mix of of Platonic solids. I would have had no problem with it, because it didn't break anything and was completely optional. Still is.

I cannot think of another reasonably successful, or even memorable, RPG that added dice to the mix.

As an aside, not every game in role playing history required dice, therefore you cannot list dice as something required to play every role playing game. Both Amber and Marvel Universe RPGs eschewed dice. In the case of Amber it was cooperative play. Marvel Universe was about resource management.

True, but a game deleting one of the standard items is really not the same as a game adding to the list.

Maybe I don't understand where you're coming from after all, because I don't see a problem with what Goodman is doing, and I haven't even read the PDF yet.

My problem is that it's a complication with no real point for the consumer. Nothing is gained by this, except as Jason pointed out, maybe some publicity. That's great for Goodman, but doesn't do anything for us.

Anyway, I'm done talking about this topic. Some people will not care, some people will, and some people will have a different issue with it. I'm not advocating anyone else to think a certain way, just to read it for themselves and make their own decision. I'm highly unlikely to be a customer for this item, and I stated a few reasons why. I still hope Goodman does well with it.

Areas of interest/knowledge: Harn, WFRP, Ars Magica, anything BRP based such as CoC, Runequest, Pendragon and all their related games