S&W White Box OOP?
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Post Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 3:12 pm 
 

This is a collecting notice only!  I won't pretend to have any knowledge of what is going on between Matt, Marv and John but it appears there is some argument about who created what when it comes to the S&W white box rules.  Matt/Mythmere along with John Adams has just announced they are suspending printing of the White Box.  Anyway, just a heads up, if you haven't picked one up yet you might do so.....looks like it may be OOP for awhile, if not for good (unless the parties can work this out, which I hope they do).   The S&W white box is really a great piece of work, both as a game and aesthetically, and I can definitely see it going up in value.

Personally it doesn't appear anything was said or done that couldn't be worked out.

Mike B.


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Post Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 6:01 pm 
 

I read this over on the Brave Halfling site yesterday about a new printing of White Box.

http://bravehalfling.com/?p=301

And now a day later this is posted:

http://bravehalfling.com/?p=326

All preorders are being refunded and the whole thing is kaput.  :?


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Post Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 6:20 pm 
 

It's times like this I really hate the internet.

Things are said and people react immediately, without sitting back and digesting if for a few days.  I know it's hard to blame them sometimes, but it really creates a toxic atmosphere, and often on the internet your words are there forever for everyone to see.  

Really sucks for John at BHP, cause he's caught in the middle.  I honestly hope it all works out.

In case it doesn't, though, I'd pick up a S&W White box is you can find one. It is a really cool item, and may get hard to find pretty quick.

Mike B.


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Post Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 7:37 pm 
 

Before any posts are deleted or altered or whatever, here are two posts from the BHP site.  Nobody has thrown insults or anything like that.

January 17, 2011 at 2:53 pm (UTC 0)

Marv / Finarvyn says:

Well, don't hold this against John. As far as I can tell, he's doing all of the hard work. A year or so ago I encouraged him to do what he wanted to promote the WB and I think he's done a fantastic job and a heck of a lot of work stuffing and mailing boxes along the way. I doubt that he's making much money off of this endeavor.

I was just along for the ride, then my boat sank.  :)


January 17, 2011 at 7:28 pm (UTC 0)

John Adams says:

Well, actually, I am still in good graces with both Marv and Matt. I think they may be working out their issues with each other.

But this is what I get for not having my own rpg game.


What good is the Intarwebz if I can't watch blood being spilled in real-time?  MOAR BLUD.  :evil:

But, seriously . . . I hope that everything remains civil.  I don't know if the old-school RPG community can continue to grow if flamewars break out.

So . . .  is everyone running to Troll & Toad (or wherever) to purchase White Boxes?  :twisted:

  


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Post Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 10:50 pm 
 

I updated my site about this issue this evening:
http://bravehalfling.com/?p=333


Brave Halfling Publishing

  

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Post Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 11:57 pm 
 

Not to sound "out of the know"  but what are they arguing about?


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Post Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 8:56 am 
 

Blackmoor wrote:Not to sound "out of the know"  but what are they arguing about?



Since most of the offending posts (from both parties) have been removed, it's hard to tell for those just coming in. Basically, it was an issue of credit being given on the copyright page between two parties; John at BHP just got caught in the middle. Things were said on both sides, but to their credit actually both parties have removed their posts on both the Knights & Knaves and the OD&D websites.  Maybe with the removal of the offending posts things can get calmer and something can be worked out.

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Post Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 9:01 am 
 

Blackmoor wrote:Not to sound "out of the know"  but what are they arguing about?


In addition to the two links provided by KoP above...^^^

http://bravehalfling.com/?p=301

Marv / Finarvyn says: January 17, 2011 at 2:25 am (UTC 0)

Reply
I think I know now how Gary felt.

When I wrote the WB rules set, it was with the notion that it was to be a free giveaway product. As such, no contracts were signed and no money was asked for. I went through the process because I was asked to do it and because I felt honored to find that others felt that I was the right person for the job. I even paid Pete Mullen for the cover art from my own pocket, as this was a non-profit endeavor. As interest in the product grew, my layout was discarded and Jessie (Verhaden) took over. He did a wonderful job with it, by the way. From the onset there were some issues that popped up, something I thought of as the "three-headed monster." We had a principal author, layout guy, and the who organized it all, and none of us felt we could make changes without consulting each other. For a long time the WB sat in limbo.

I never got a dime from the lulu sales, which were supposed to go back into artwork and help fund the next projects. I never even got a complementary copy of my own book, and had to buy one through lulu.

The initial WB rules listed Matt and I as co-authors at my insistence, but Matt (Mythmere) had said that I was really the guy in charge of it so later printings were adjusted to have my name only. Naturally, I assumed that I was in control of my own work.

Demand for printed versions grew and John (Coleston) was so kind as to take the burden of getting boxes put together, getting books printed, and boxed sets assembled. I certainly appreciate the time and effort that he put into this project, and don't begrudge him making a few bucks for his hard work. Certainly I had no desire to assemble a few hundred boxed sets and mail them. John was so kind as to give a complementary copy of the boxed set and a freebie hardback of the rules. He also offered me a small stipend per sale, which he had no obligation to do since no contract was in place.

I guess you can also buy PDF copies now for $8 or $9. I just found that out today.

Now comes this announcement http://bravehalfling.com/?p=301 that John and Matt have an agreement signed on January 1. What the agreement entails I don't know, since I wasn't a part of the process and until today didn't even know that anything formal had been decided. I certainly don't want to start any sort of online feud, but I have to admit to feeling hurt that my WB rules have a life of their own and I don't have any say in the matter.

While I hate to compare myself to one of the great game designers ever (in my opinion), I think I have a sense as to what he must have felt like when his "baby" slipped from his fingers.


I am concerned though as I was planning to order a copy of this new 3rd Print set soon and was in fact going to do so this morning.
And was almost at the point of paying when I read this thread.
Apparently even though John states he would reverse all standing orders for the 3rd print set and is no longer taking orders, the site does not indicate that choice has been removed for ordering.
You can still pay for it, just wont get one... :?


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Post Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 5:36 pm 
 

All is well according to this post on that BHP thread:
January 18, 2011 at 7:01 pm (UTC 0)

Matt Finch says:

Marv and I have resolved our differences on this. Since it was such a public blow-up, we've posted the agreement-discussion on his site so that the WB players can rest assured that it's no longer an issue.

I apologize for all the unrest this caused. It was a misunderstanding, but a fairly fundamental one that had remained undetectable for a long time, and those can be really explosive when they surface late in the game.

It's fixed now.

Hopefully, based on the fact that the differences over the IP, credit, etc are all resolved, John will still be interested in continuing on with WhiteBox.

Ironically, this whole mess will probably have the effect of increasing John's sales, when it's all said and done.


Move along; nothing to see here.

  

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Post Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 5:49 pm 
 

JohnGaunt wrote:Move along; nothing to see here.


Isn't this how Facebook started?  If that analogy holds you'll be billionaires in about 5 years.

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Post Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 5:03 pm 
 

Surprise announcement by Brave Halfling Publishing today:

http://bravehalfling.com/?p=344

Get those S&W white boxes while you can, collectors!!!

Good Luck to John on his new endeavor!

Mike B.


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Post Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 9:09 pm 
 

I am lucky to have won both of mine in the 2010 NTRPGcon raffle last year.

Martin

  

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Post Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 9:28 pm 
 

From the BHP site...

We will be supporting Delving Deeper RPG with modules, supplements and campaigns.


I am most pleased by this... I look forward to following the line knowing more products are coming :)

(Got my WB a couple weeks ago!)

  

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Post Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:39 pm 
 

Badmike wrote:Surprise announcement by Brave Halfling Publishing today:

http://bravehalfling.com/?p=344

Get those S&W white boxes while you can, collectors!!!

Good Luck to John on his new endeavor!

Mike B.


OK I will bite.
WHERE can we get one?


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Post Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 2:26 pm 
 

Gnat the Beggar wrote:
OK I will bite.
WHERE can we get one?


Troll & Toad, Noble Knight, and the publisher are all out of them.   I would say it is doubtful that any other outlet has any either.  I guess you will have to wait and see if Marv or Matt have plans to do another printing in the future.  Based on one of John Adams' earlier posts, it seemed that S&W White Box was headed for retail distribution through Brave Halfling.  I suspect that is no longer going to happen.


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Post Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 9:12 pm 
 

The differences between myself and Marv are all resolved, and WhiteBox will continue to be published. However, it won't (at least there are no plans at all at present) be done as a boxed set.

So, the BHP print runs of Swords & Wizardry WhiteBox are definitely collector items at this point.

  

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Post Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 10:26 pm 
 

Mythmere1 wrote:The differences between myself and Marv are all resolved

Good.  That was certainly an interesting way to start off the New Year . .

  
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