Wonderland = Nehwon
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Post Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 2:48 pm 
 

Can anyone help with this? I'd like to know who the illustrator was for this map of Wonderland, which I believe appeared in an early issue of the Alice fanzine. TIA.

{EDITed for stupidity}


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Last edited by MetaSigma on Wed Jun 09, 2010 1:14 pm, edited 3 times in total.
  

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Post Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 2:51 pm 
 

*twiddles thumbs* (erm, talons...)

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Nothing to see here: please move along now...

d. ^v'


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7.4 TAKING THE GAME SERIOUSLY: Don't"


Last edited by faro on Thu Jun 03, 2010 5:30 pm, edited 4 times in total.
  

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Post Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 4:19 pm 
 

faro wrote:*coughs*. I'm saying nothing for now... Could you come back in a few days, please. ;)


Hey, it may be miserably flimsy, but it's still a very rare map. Whatever the overall condition, you have to admit it has nice borogoves.


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Last edited by MetaSigma on Thu Jun 03, 2010 7:21 pm, edited 3 times in total.
  

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Post Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 5:43 pm 
 

Mimsy it may be, but if you look at it in a mirror whilst covering your left eye I think you'll see what I mean. It's my own invention, you know.

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No White Knights on this board. No more white horses, too. :lol:


"7.3 ORGANIZING THE PARTY: Always have a keg, even if it's BYOB...
7.4 TAKING THE GAME SERIOUSLY: Don't"

  

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Post Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 1:41 am 
 

Catch any lobsters today? ;)


"7.3 ORGANIZING THE PARTY: Always have a keg, even if it's BYOB...
7.4 TAKING THE GAME SERIOUSLY: Don't"

  

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Post Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 6:15 am 
 

I suppose you could say that :). Perhaps I'll post a photograph a bit later in the week.


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Post Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 1:52 am 
 

Clearly I missed a good Alice in Wonderland joke while at the con this weekend?


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Post Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 6:15 am 
 

grodog wrote:Clearly I missed a good Alice in Wonderland joke while at the con this weekend?


Not so much :). Sorry about the cryptic references, guys. I'll explain in a day or two.


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Post Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 9:43 am 
 

grodog wrote:Clearly I missed a good Alice in Wonderland joke while at the con this weekend?


Ya, and you missed the pic of the original map posted.

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Post Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 12:28 pm 
 

Mars wrote:

Ya, and you missed the pic of the original map posted.




That too. It was the original map of Fritz Leiber's Nehwon by Jim Cawthorn, published in the Amra fanzine in 1961. I posted asking if anyone knew who the illustrator was, as it was up for auction on eBay and the seller didn't know (this was before I had decided to bid, and before my research turned up the artist's name). faro responded with something like, "Hey, don't let the cat out of the bag," so I changed my original post, he edited his reply, etc. I subsequently bid on and won the piece. Since it's not a gaming item per se I'll just post it here:




** expired eBay auction **




As a diehard Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser (and Leiber in general) fan, I'm frankly stunned to have been able to acquire this piece at any price. Christopher Tolkien's original map of Middle-earth might be more "important" and valuable, but I'd rather have this.


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Post Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 1:32 pm 
 

Fantastic win!  I love stuff like this.


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Post Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 1:48 pm 
 

MetamorphosisSigma wrote:I posted asking if anyone knew who the illustrator was, as it was up for auction on eBay

Yeah, except that you didn't mention that, but instead slinkily attached the reprinted monochrome version that was reprinted in the mass-publication books US side (apparently!). Good try, but that was never going to hold back any serious RPG-side Leiber fan from figuring out what was up. ;)

A nice win, indeed: suffice to say $185 would have been /way/ too cheap IMHO and the final price was still pretty darned good given how widely that's been published in the past 49 years and the relevancy of the subject matter to a wide range of interests.

(Thought I was doing well to try to give ya a shake within 3 minutes, so was somewhat dismayed that you'd done a "hit and run" on the post and didn't come back to read/edit for over an hour. :lol: Thanks, Mark, for not spoiling that!).

aside: I'd personally say that it's barely less of a "gaming item" than Barker's original "Tekumel" works, say: even if it wasn't lifted /quite/ so directly into later gaming products, there are indirect influences (via RPG founders reading those books) and useful comparisons that can be drawn on how Nehwon was eventually presented over time in a gaming context.


"7.3 ORGANIZING THE PARTY: Always have a keg, even if it's BYOB...
7.4 TAKING THE GAME SERIOUSLY: Don't"

  

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Post Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 2:09 pm 
 

faro wrote:Yeah, except that you didn't mention that, but instead slinkily attached the reprinted monochrome version that was reprinted in the mass-publication books US side (apparently!). Good try, but that was never going to hold back any serious RPG-side Leiber fan from figuring out what was up. ;)


Yes, for about 1/2 second I thought I was being slick. But at that point I was half-tempted to post it in the "Interesting non-TSR Items Currently..." thread, as I figured I didn't have a chance of winning it. By the time I realized I was being a dumbass and came back to delete my OP, you had responded :).

A nice win, indeed: suffice to say $185 would have been /way/ too cheap IMHO and the final price was still pretty darned good given how widely that's been published in the past 49 years and the relevancy of the subject matter to a wide range of interests.


Thanks. Oh, I'm quite happy with the final price. My snipe (with 20 or so seconds left) was much higher than what it went for, and I would have happily paid it. Two other bids came in afterwards, IIRC. The map has been published in the Gregg Press editions (don't own these, but I tracked down a credit on eBay in two of the volumes), the SFBC omnibus edition Swords' Masters of the 2nd three "Swords" books, and as the front and rear pastedowns in the first three volumes of the White Wolf/Borealis F&GM books from the '90s.

(Thought I was doing well to try to give ya a shake within 3 minutes, so was somewhat dismayed that you'd done a "hit and run" on the post and didn't come back to read/edit for over an hour. :lol: Thanks, Mark, for not spoiling that!).


Yes, heartfelt thanks, Mark. If this had been better advertised (my own advert aside  :oops: ) and the seller had named the illustrator (who is fairly well known), this could have gone for a lot more.

aside: I'd personally say that it's barely less of a "gaming item" as Barker's original "Tekumel" works: even if it wasn't lifted /quite/ so directly into later gaming products, there are indirect influences (via RPG founders reading those books) and useful comparisons that can be drawn on how Nehwon was eventually presented over time in a gaming context.


Being the only pre-AD&D map of Nehwon that I'm aware of, this was undoubtedly the template for the (somewhat sketchy also) map of Nehwon by Diesel in the "City of Adventure" book and later TSR offerings (which I no longer have).

It's also interesting (at least to me) to note which place names are not present on this map, as it was drawn in '61 before about half of the F & GM wordcount was penned by Leiber (e.g., The Swords of Lankhmar, the stories comprising Swords and Ice Magic, some of the internally chronologically "earlier" stories such as "Ill Met in Lankhmar", etc.)--the absence of Rime Isle being the most obvious thing.


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Post Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 2:28 pm 
 

MetamorphosisSigma wrote:Being the only pre-AD&D map of Nehwon that I'm aware of, this was undoubtedly the template for the (somewhat sketchy also) map of Nehwon by Diesel in the "City of Adventure" book and later TSR offerings (which I no longer have).

Oh, there are others prior to that date; http://boardgame.geekdo.com/image/451536/lankhmar for one ;)
How intertwined the various literary and gaming maps over time (and location) I couldn't honestly tell you since I haven't taken the time and effort to look into that; there are rather more hooks to research than for Vance's Dying Earth, however. *g*

MetamorphosisSigma wrote:It's also interesting (at least to me) to note which place names are not present on this map, as it was drawn in '61 before about half of the F & GM wordcount was penned by Leiber (e.g., The Swords of Lankhmar, the stories comprising Swords and Ice Magic, some of the internally chronologically "earlier" stories such as "Ill Met in Lankhmar", etc.)--the absence of Rime Isle being the most obvious thing.

Mhmm... have fun researching the original texts! :)


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7.4 TAKING THE GAME SERIOUSLY: Don't"

  

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Post Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 2:44 pm 
 

Oh yeah, I had totally forgotten about the board game. That's still way later than 1961 (1975?). Any others that you know of?

And does anyone know which issue of Amra this was published in, exactly? I know it was from 1961 as it's credited as being used by permission of George Scithers and Owlswick Press/Amra from that year (hence an early-ish issue from Vol. 2, there was only one issue in Vol. 1). I'm interested to know if there were any accompanying notes or commentary by Cawthorn or Leiber. I doubt it was just printed in a vacuum, though this is certainly possible.


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Post Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 2:56 pm 
 

MetamorphosisSigma wrote:Oh yeah, I had totally forgotten about the board game. That's still way later than 1961 (1975?).

circa 1972/73(?), revised/published 1976; original circa 1937 but no direct cartographic relationship.

MetamorphosisSigma wrote:Any others that you know of?

:lol:
You'd do better throwing that opening a bid wider (board /and/ beyond) since I'd have to dig books out of boxes that I haven't had space to unpack for eight years or so, sorry. :/


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7.4 TAKING THE GAME SERIOUSLY: Don't"

  

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Post Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 4:09 pm 
 

faro wrote::lol:
You'd do better throwing that opening a bid wider (board /and/ beyond) since I'd have to dig books out of boxes that I haven't had space to unpack for eight years or so, sorry. :/


Okey doke. You've completely lost me.

I hadn't realized that Leiber (presumably w/ input from H. O. Fischer) had drawn up anything as early as '37. Evidently I need to brush up on that aspect of the history of Lankhmar/Nehwon.


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Post Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 4:47 pm 
 

MetamorphosisSigma wrote:Okey doke. You've completely lost me.

Cool: more new directions in which to aim that enthusiasm. ;)

MetamorphosisSigma wrote:I hadn't realized that Leiber (presumably w/ input from H. O. Fischer) had drawn up anything as early as '37. Evidently I need to brush up on that aspect of the history of Lankhmar/Nehwon.

Or closer to 1939 if the note from Leiber that I PM'd you is /precise/ vs. the usual 1937 date. :)
You know who to ask... and where that fits in the literary chronology.

Gotta remember the books have a somewhat similar relationship to the game as the likes of Magira some 30 years later when roleplaying was on the way back in again.


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7.4 TAKING THE GAME SERIOUSLY: Don't"

  

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Post Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 6:12 pm 
 

faro wrote:Or closer to 1939 if the note from Leiber that I PM'd you is /precise/ vs. the usual 1937 date. :)
You know who to ask... and where that fits in the literary chronology.


Yes, I saw the note, and I was aware that the rudiments of Nehwon/Lankhmar were established between Leiber and Fischer through correspondence in the '30s... But, I've never seen anything to suggest that an original map survives, or if one ever existed. Obviously Leiber had some sense of the geography, but whether he was going from something concrete... I dunno. Maybe I've missed something. I guess I'll have to employ my "enthusiasm" as you put it.

Yes, I know where that fits into the literary chronology. Before it.

Gotta remember the books have a somewhat similar relationship to the game as the likes of Magira some 30 years later when roleplaying was on the way back in again.


Please explain. Not familiar with "Magira".


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Post Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 8:02 pm 
 

Magira was the setting for a series of fantasy novels by Hugh Walker aka Hubert Strassl.  They were based on a long running war game played at conventions.


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