Worst Dungeons & Dragons product ever!!!
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Post Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 9:56 pm 
 

Xaxaxe wrote:I'm not sure it's the worst, but you know what is kind of borderline-awful? The orange B3.

I just scanned through my copy (that would be the free PDF, not the real thing; I'm still working on that :wink:), and there's just not a lot of there there. The best part is the artwork and, frankly, 75 percent of the artwork sucks.

I am now donning my +5 Suit of Flaming Resistance (+10 vs. old-school diehards). Fire away.


There's nothing gameworthy to recommend in the orange B3.  It rivals ST1 for sheer weird-for-the-sake-of-weird feel, and frankly it doesn't have much of a place at my table...trust me, as an oldschool gamer I'm not the least bit taken aback that you think it sucks. :)

  


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Post Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 10:18 pm 
 

Blackmoor wrote:
Zippanthropus wrote:I didn't like the DL books either. The only reason I read the first three was due to the fact that I was stuck in bed in Belize for a week or so.

Worst Product: Player's Screen. Told a player to take a walk when he insisted that he roll his dice behind his screen. Also, many of those "Complete X" books. How many times did I hear, "But on page X it says that I have the ability to Y!"?


The complete books really sucked.  As a DM I was unable to keep up with everything in them so the players which specialized in classes always had the upper hand.  I ended up banning all but the core books for 2nd ed!  A few players were really chocked and quit the game, no matter people were lining up to play in my campaign at the time.

Even worse than those books were the Players option Books; really they started the end of 2nd ed being playable for me!!

J


My fellow collectors, players, and dungeon masters,
    You gotta turn the tables on the players.  Sure the Paladin in the game wants to use the new non-weapon proficiencies like "Diagnostics" or "Bureaucracy" for his character.  Yeah the Ranger has a cool kit, which gives him more spells.  (By the way I always though that the Complete Paladin + Ranger Handbooks were among the best supplements ((although the Ranger one had sepia tone spills covering a few pages in my copy.))  But it's not like the NPCs are forbidden from having them.  Remember in the DMG from the original edition how Gygax explained why he didn't include a Critical Hits component to combat.  He wrote that if you include it will be used against the players and they won't like it.  Some complain about Psionics, (since I love that handbook) let me type a Second Edition game scene...
DM:  As you all cross the field you catch the murder approching the river.  He's only two yards from the boat.  Once he's on it the current will take him out of range.  You look at him, he's your age, same experiences, yet he has chosen a strange path of evil.
Group Leader:  I'll have the elf shoot the arrows.
DM:  You used them up, remeber? Gotta keep these things in mind.
Leader:  I tell Delanora to get her Magic Missle spell ready to uncut the boat's tether or blast a hole in the side.  Then I shout, "Surrender! We can dislodge the barque or put a hole in it!"
DM:  The young killer has already stopped.  He stands there looking at his dirk.  He's doing nothing so you wonder is he praying? (Pauses but the group is not with it so they do nothing.)  Suddenly he vanishes.  He's gone.
Leader:  The spellcasters will cast Detect Invisibility.
DM:  (Rolls behind the screen thrice with different dice.)  Delanora's been feeling weak this last round.  (Looks at the player herself.)  You keel over and bite the dust.  Your eyes see the blood pool beneath you and you finally notice the pain in your back.  (Back at whole group.) Whirling 'round you notice the youth with a bloody weapon in hand.  (Rolls one last time behind the screen.)  Surprised, he fades from sight again, only to appear again in the watercraft heading off.

      So as you can read.  A young Psionicist and Thief uses Dimension Door, available to all low level Mind Warriors but only mid-level mages.  he then backstabs (silently) with a poisoned blade.  Then having the initiative he uses Dimension Door again to get away.  And one poor gal has lost a character, for now.  
      Sure your players use new equipment, spells, weapons, and so on, but so can their enemies.  A group of mine once quit (not because of the above scene but) because the villains were just as much power gamers as them.  Another tip is handicap your players with the armor proficiency rules from the Complete Fighter's Handbookand suddenly its harder to use chain mail when your players are used to studded leather.  Knowing about new magic items also comes with other prices.
Verily,
Thomas

  

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Post Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 12:17 am 
 

I never liked the *Complete* books....mostly because they only caused problems.

    The main point of those books was....*drum roll*.....to sell them!

    What player in his right mind is going to buy a game book that doesn't give him some new power?  So, the Complete books always included rules to power up a character class....and damn the concepts of game balance or simple logic.     :x

    Very Small Example:  A list of thieves' tools that give bonuses when used to perform the various thieving skills.

    Um...dude...haven't you ever heard of "thieves picks and tools?"  Doesn't every thief use these every time?  The existence of a special tool that gives a bonus % makes no sense.     :?

    My house rule always has been:  If it ain't in the core rulebooks then it doesn't exist unless you clear it with me first.  Don't whine and don't expect me to clear whatever you want...because you probably want it for exactly the reason I don't want it!   :evil:

    The exact same phenomenon killed miniatures wargaming for me.  Games Workshop would issue new rules every so often that basically read like this:  "These new miniatures are just like your old miniatures except that the rules supporting them are slightly better than the rules supporting your old miniatures...which means that both the rules and the price are now stupidly inflated."

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Post Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 12:37 am 
 

One of the worst TSR modules I've ever read is WG9 Gargoyle.  Two gargoyles have lost their wings and need the players to help them... say what?!?!  It's astounding they couldn't come up with a better plot involving gargoyles than that... I know the powers that be said they weren't purposely trying to kill Greyhawk at that time but looking at the modules that were coming out then.... well...

  


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Post Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 12:49 am 
 

MShipley88 wrote:I never liked the *Complete* books....mostly because they only caused problems.

    The main point of those books was....*drum roll*.....to sell them!

    What player in his right mind is going to buy a game book that doesn't give him some new power?  So, the Complete books always included rules to power up a character class....and damn the concepts of game balance or simple logic.     :x

    Very Small Example:  A list of thieves' tools that give bonuses when used to perform the various thieving skills.

    Um...dude...haven't you ever heard of "thieves picks and tools?"  Doesn't every thief use these every time?  The existence of a special tool that gives a bonus % makes no sense.     :?

    My house rule always has been:  If it ain't in the core rulebooks then it doesn't exist unless you clear it with me first.  Don't whine and don't expect me to clear whatever you want...because you probably want it for exactly the reason I don't want it!   :evil:

Mark  [/i]


Although we have disagreements on taste, I agree with you.  All of those books were of course meant only to sell. Still, that does not mean some are not useful.  (I'm not a complete "anything you want" dungeon Master.)    But of course you are right.  I never did but those "Player and Dungeon Master Option Hardbacks."  An example is the the Complete Book of Humanoids.  I never allow it.  The only races okay in my campaigns are the races from the main rules.  (I suppose if I were doing Dark Sun that would be different but as I'm one day to join a Dark Sun game I try to stay ignorant of that Setting and never buy a book of it.)  Another big one for me are kender.  I never allow my players to be kender with few exceptions because I know they just want to use the race as a stealing mechanism to get stuff.  As was just said, if a players want it for a reason, a Dungeon Master has every right to  ban it for the same reasons.
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Post Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 8:24 am 
 

MShipley88 wrote:I never liked the *Complete* books....mostly because they only caused problems.


Have to agree with this 100%. I'm not a edition junkie ( like em all ) and actually enjoy 2nd edition ( I'ts all in the DM anyways :) ) but these books really caused more BS than anything else. Two words: Breach Gnomes  8O

  


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Post Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 9:44 am 
 

Personally I hated UA. New classes were awful, the new character generation system sucked mightily (9d6 for prime requisite?) and the whole book played into the powergamers hands imho. DSG and WSG were both well-written and full of useful information -  if you wanted to go on camping trip. For any AD&D player they were simply irrelevant...

On the subject of DL we didn't have enough players so we had to play two characters each. I got Sturm and Tanis and by the end of DL1 I was ready to have the pair fight a duel during which they both died just to be rid of the pair of them. Don't mind an adventure being linear but there are limits!

  


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Post Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 10:12 am 
 

On the subject of DL, I enjoyed Chronicles, the Legends and like three other books. Everything else associated with DL was degrees of shabby. The modules outright hugged it, big time, IMO. But I had two players who loved them (as they did everything DL), so I ran them. After the third I suggested they just do it themselves as there really wasn't a need for a DM.


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Post Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 1:51 pm 
 

Deities & Demigods...

Giving stats to gods only encouraged years of PC's wanting to go god-hunting.

Ridiculous. I never allowed it in my campaigns, but a casual perusal of letters & forum posts in Dragon Magazine indicates the problem was rampant.

One of the many problems with 1st edition that we'd all like to forget.

  

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Post Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 2:55 pm 
 

red_dawn wrote:Deities & Demigods...

Giving stats to gods only encouraged years of PC's wanting to go god-hunting.

Ridiculous. I never allowed it in my campaigns, but a casual perusal of letters & forum posts in Dragon Magazine indicates the problem was rampant.

One of the many problems with 1st edition that we'd all like to forget.


Yes I remember when I went away for holidays one summer and upon returning found out that one of the characters had killed Death and taken his sword for himself!!!(He won initiative don't you know)  Gods were mere playthings for the PC's at that point!

Here Zues, come on boy fetch the sword..............


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Post Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 5:35 pm 
 

red_dawn wrote:Deities & Demigods

Wow, that surprises me. I always thought that Deities was a great product — there was lots of cool artwork, some educational stuff about some religions I knew nothing about, and, of course, lots of bitchin' power-gaming stats. And, remember, the edition with the Cthulhu and Elric listings is really Super-Mondo-Way-Rare ... you can get, like, $1,000 for one. It was "banned," you know ... 8O

But your point about the runaway munchkin-ism is dead-on. That book just seemed to bring out the worst in everyone (bitch-slapping Elric and getting my hands on an official AD&D version of Stormbringer was one of my goals). I would argue that that sort of rampant power-gaming was more of a reflection on the players rather than the book, though. YMMV, of course.

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Post Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 6:19 pm 
 

Xaxaxe wrote:
red_dawn wrote:Deities & Demigods

Wow, that surprises me. I always thought that Deities was a great product — there was lots of cool artwork, some educational stuff about some religions I knew nothing about, and, of course, lots of bitchin' power-gaming stats. And, remember, the edition with the Cthulhu and Elric listings is really Super-Mondo-Way-Rare ... you can get, like, $1,000 for one. It was "banned," you know ... 8O

But your point about the runaway munchkin-ism is dead-on. That book just seemed to bring out the worst in everyone (bitch-slapping Elric and getting my hands on an official AD&D version of Stormbringer was one of my goals). I would argue that that sort of rampant power-gaming was more of a reflection on the players rather than the book, though. YMMV, of course.


FWI,. I really like Deities & Demigods.  I alos loved UA, except for it may have been the worst bonded book in the history of mankind.  :roll:   Nothing like it when you 12 and a book you really like falls apart in your hands for no other reason then you had the audacity to open it. :(


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Post Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 6:30 pm 
 

Xaxaxe wrote:I would argue that that sort of rampant power-gaming was more of a reflection on the players rather than the book, though.


I'd say its more a factor of the DM for letting the players get away with that sort of munchkinism.  

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Post Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 7:04 pm 
 

Dude.  You weren't supposed to sick Zeus on the party.  Some DM's could not understand that....they were kids, afterall.  

    However, it was EGG who went with the idea of a killable god.  He even set her up with a high AC and a glass jaw to make the killing that much more certain but still dramatic.


    I learned a lot from Dieties and Demi-gods.  And, yes, I got Elric and all.

    I think that Oriental Adventures must have been the worst binding job in history.  We used to joke that you had to turn your head away the first time you opened it or the pages could blow up in your face like a grenade.   :x

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Post Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 7:17 pm 
 

Here's a pointer that some might find useful.  After my first Unearthed Arcana completely fell apart, I removed the remaining glue and comb bound it in a clear plastic folder.  I still use it today without any further degradation.  The pages flip effortlessly and adding supplemental pages is easy too.

So, instead of throwing away those book that are falling apart, take them into a Kinko's, or anywhere else that you can find a binding machine, and presto, new life!

  


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Post Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 7:20 pm 
 

No worries about me throwing out any books.  The only way I could bring myself to throw out a D&D book is if it has some irremovable bodily fluid such as the 3 Ps.  I was going to be witty and say that if someone gave me a 3rd edition D&D book, I would throw it out, but that wouldn't count because thats not really a D&D book anyway. :P


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Post Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 8:30 pm 
 

Lordan wrote:
MShipley88 wrote:I never liked the *Complete* books....mostly because they only caused problems.


Have to agree with this 100%. I'm not a edition junkie ( like em all ) and actually enjoy 2nd edition ( I'ts all in the DM anyways :) ) but these books really caused more BS than anything else. Two words: Breach Gnomes  8O

The PHBRx series were all pretty darn bad.  They tended to promote low-quality roleplaying (whining, munchinism, min/maxing, rules lawyering, etc.) because they were targetted towards the players themselves.  

In comparison, the similar looking DMGRx supplements were rather useful and interesting.  Creative Campaigning and Monster Mythology were two of my favorites, some of the historical references weren't bad, either.  Because they were targetted towards DMs, they didn't hamper play the same way.

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Post Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 8:37 pm 
 

bclarkie wrote:No worries about me throwing out any books.  The only way I could bring myself to throw out a D&D book is if it has some irremovable bodily fluid such as the 3 Ps.

God help me, but I'm going to ask — there are three Ps?

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Post Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 8:37 pm 
 

MShipley88 wrote:Dude.  You weren't supposed to sick Zeus on the party.  Some DM's could not understand that....they were kids, afterall.  

    However, it was EGG who went with the idea of a killable god.  He even set her up with a high AC and a glass jaw to make the killing that much more certain but still dramatic.


Well to be honest, Lolth was at best (worst?) a minor demi-goddess at any rate.  Still super powerful but by no means an Odin.

MShipley88 wrote:     I learned a lot from Dieties and Demi-gods.  And, yes, I got Elric and all.


Well, Deities and Demi-Gods was Ward & Kuntz, just like Supplement IV: Gods, Demi-Gods & Heroes, and the forward to that book states that the gods aren't given stats for players to compare favorably to, they're given stats so DMs who've handed out treasure like it was going out of style begin to realize where the upper end limit was, or should have been.  Odin the all-father has a "mere" 300 hit points, when Gary & Co. were being innundated with stories about characters with thousands of HP, multiple swords of life-stealing, all 18's in stats, and so forth.

    I think that Oriental Adventures must have been the worst binding job in history.  We used to joke that you had to turn your head away the first time you opened it or the pages could blow up in your face like a grenade.   :x

Mark  8)


I think the 20th Century Imports' were better bound than most post-Monster Manual II books.  8O


Last edited by DungeonDelver on Mon Feb 26, 2007 1:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
  


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Post Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 8:51 pm 
 

Xaxaxe wrote:
bclarkie wrote:No worries about me throwing out any books.  The only way I could bring myself to throw out a D&D book is if it has some irremovable bodily fluid such as the 3 Ps.

God help me, but I'm going to ask — there are three Ps?


Pee, Poop, & Puke(keeping it as clean as possible). :wink:  Those 3 would religate a book to the trash.  I imagine that if some how bile or an over amount of phlemage(is this even a word?  :lol: ) was involved that might make them trash worthy as well.


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