My conversation with DSL III......
Post new topic Reply to topic Page 2 of 31, 2, 3
Author


Prolific Collector

Posts: 181
Joined: Apr 02, 2004
Last Visit: May 26, 2014
Location: Sierra Foothills, CA

Post Posted: Tue May 04, 2004 9:58 pm 
 

grodog wrote:FWIW, I've know Rob Kuntz and Gary Gygax for some years (Rob for longer than Gary), and DCSIII's characterization of Gary.  That doesn't mean that his POV isn't valid, it just doesn't square with the Gary I've known personally and via Rob since the late 1980s.


That's actually good to hear...I was really hoping that was the case...I could tell DSL's feelings were obviously quite personal, and deep seeded...and as somebody who really just loved to play the game, Gary Gygax to me first just a name I saw on most of the modules, books, etc. that were opening my eyes to a bigger world at age 12/13..of course, after a short time, I had to presume GG WAS TSR/D&D... as that was how the product was presented circa 79-83. I stopped playing after that for the most part and over the years I forgot nearly all the artists associated with the game, save Gygax,Sutherland,Otus,Dee maybe a couple others...and having not rediscovered D&D's magic and draw again until just recently....I was quite shocked to hear of DSL's accounting...it was really quite depressing to think that this GG I had thought to be a fantasy buff, Tolkien fan, just all around great creative mind who was able to create an incredible world of "structured imagination", was actually no more than an organized manipulator????!!!!..... so..sorry a bit long winded...thanks grodog for restoring some of my faith in the man!!

So....I am only the messenger here..I'll be adding more recollections later on...maybe I'll take it easy on the GG stories...

Or...GG....if you're out there...call anytime and give me your accounting...haha...(don't see that happening anytime soon..)

  


Grandstanding Collector

Posts: 5611
Joined: Nov 16, 2002
Last Visit: Jan 24, 2021
Location: Wichita, KS, USA

Post Posted: Tue May 04, 2004 11:56 pm 
 

If you'd like, you can send Gary the link to this discussion (his email is ggygax at geneva online [that's just one word by the way] dot com), though he's generally not too interested in dishing on old TSR relationships that were hostile; he's also recovering from a recent mild stroke, so he's been pretty scarce online of late....


Allan Grohe ([email protected])
Greyhawk, grodog Style

Editor and Project Manager, Black Blade Publishing
https://www.facebook.com/BlackBladePublishing/

 WWW  

User avatar

Verbose Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 1250
Joined: Jan 01, 2003
Last Visit: Jan 08, 2021

Post Posted: Wed May 05, 2004 12:06 am 
 

seeyouinescrow wrote:For all interested in seeing that original DMG artwork...well, check this out!

AOL Lifestream : Login


8O  Cool...

But why did you state in a previous post the DMG cover would upset some people?  Did you just mean make us crazy with wide eyes for the painting?   :wink:

So what's everyone's estimate on this one?  It will easily break all records for any item related to D&D ever put for auction but by how much is the question...

  


Prolific Collector

Posts: 181
Joined: Apr 02, 2004
Last Visit: May 26, 2014
Location: Sierra Foothills, CA

Post Posted: Wed May 05, 2004 1:37 am 
 

dathon wrote:
seeyouinescrow wrote:For all interested in seeing that original DMG artwork...well, check this out!

AOL Lifestream : Login


8O  Cool...

But why did you state in a previous post the DMG cover would upset some people?  Did you just mean make us crazy with wide eyes for the painting?   :wink:

So what's everyone's estimate on this one?  It will easily break all records for any item related to D&D ever put for auction but by how much is the question...


OK...so here's the situation that is going to piss some people off...now like I stated previously, this whole situation just came out of nowhere. One day I'm reading Cent's account of his experience with DSL..next day I'm being contacted out of the blue by DSL's sister asking where she can sell DMG cover artwork. Now...I don't know about everyone else here, but for me (and I imagine most of you too)...there was a time in my life, when it wasn't about collecting, or rarity, or 1st print woodgrains, or B3 (orange),  or ST1....you get the picture. It was about the GAME! It was about the ART! Who cared if our modules and rulebooks were all beat up and dogeared...all the better!! It was the people with the pristine books and rare items they didn't want touched that we worried about! Posers and fakers they were! Real players had notes throughout their books/modules. All right...so it was for me...I was always a huge fan of DSL, Otus, and Dee, These artists influenced our way of thinking. They opened our minds...I think you see where I'm going with this. Ok..so that's the preamble...what this all means is....when all this stuff went down with DSL, and his sister...well...I'm a believer in energy. I believe there are forces at work that we don't and can't understand. I believe this is one of those times. The fact is this....Dave wants me to buy this artwork. He offered it to me (for a substantial price of course)...but nonetheless, HE offered it. I will tell you that I did not attempt to unduly persuade him to sell it, other than to tell him that I had always admired it, and that I always had my DMG at hand during those years of the early 80's.  Now what would you all do if you were in my shoes?? I have the means to meet his price. I even told him that he could most likely get more than what he had offered it to me for.  Still, he offered it to me. Just so everyone knows...I have agonized over this situation at length. However, if I can work it out with my Wife (god help me!) I intend to purchase this...and yes....put it in my den! Look...it's not as important as my wife, so if she forbids it I wont buy it (well maybe I'm whipped just a little..but what good husband isn't), but otherwise...why shouldn't I buy it. It's not cheap...and I would be one hell of a curator..spending whatever it takes to clean, protect, and preserve this incredible item.  Hey, I'm really not trying to be a jerk about it...it's just that a situation has presented itself that doesn't come around too often. Well....there it is...I'm sure most of you are routing for my wife or maybe even a quick death for me...but that is how things stand at this moment. Of course I'll keep everyone updated....and of course...I welcome your comments and questions...thanks for listening

  

User avatar

Site Admin

Posts: 2078
Joined: Oct 19, 2002
Last Visit: Jan 25, 2021
Location: Honolulu, HI

Post Posted: Wed May 05, 2004 3:55 am 
 

Wow.  I think "congratulations", rather than "curse you seeyouinescrow", are in order.  My only reservations about the issue would be moral ones -- that Dave knows how much more money he could make on it if it went up on eBay.  I assume that he does, but still wishes to sell it to you.  And so I wouldn't waste any more guilty feelings on it, Jeff.

You're being tasked with an immense responsibility -- caring and preservation of one of the great, signature items of early D&D.  You sound like you're up to the task, and that you're just the sort of person who Dave would want this item to go to.

My best wishes, to both of you.

Foul

  


Prolific Collector

Posts: 181
Joined: Apr 02, 2004
Last Visit: May 26, 2014
Location: Sierra Foothills, CA

Post Posted: Wed May 05, 2004 4:21 am 
 

FoulFoot wrote:Wow.  I think "congratulations", rather than "curse you seeyouinescrow", are in order.  My only reservations about the issue would be moral ones -- that Dave knows how much more money he could make on it if it went up on eBay.  I assume that he does, but still wishes to sell it to you.  And so I wouldn't waste any more guilty feelings on it, Jeff.

You're being tasked with an immense responsibility -- caring and preservation of one of the great, signature items of early D&D.  You sound like you're up to the task, and that you're just the sort of person who Dave would want this item to go to.

My best wishes, to both of you.

Foul


Scott..and all...be assured that I will press Dave on this issue of price, as I struggle with that part of it also (again though..not cheap)...and I'm figuring, being how I stuttered and stammered through our last conversations, that the last words out of my mouth before payment would be something like...."Now, Mr. Suth....err..I mean Dave..I just want to be sure that...well...I know that you've told me that you are ok with it, I mean..ya know..I mean you're a legend and all....and this is such a fine thing, and...."

  

User avatar

Verbose Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 1291
Joined: Nov 24, 2002
Last Visit: Dec 25, 2020
Location: Brescia, Italy

Post Posted: Wed May 05, 2004 5:11 am 
 

seeyouinescrow wrote: That's actually good to hear...I was really hoping that was the case...I could tell DSL's feelings were obviously quite personal, and deep seeded...

With all due simpathy for Dave Sutherland, I don't think Gary Gygax is the a*****e he painted to you. I have seen Dave Sutherland's artwork and it is not good. It has of course a high nostalgia value, but if I consider its under the point of view of merit, he was at the time a mediocre artist at best. It's possible that Gary Gygax decided not using his art anymore, preferring something more polished and of higher quality. This is of course understandable from a business point of view, but the impact on the affected people isn't diminished. I understand - if my theory is correct of course - this made Dave Sutherland very, very bitter. I empathyze with him, but still I think TSR did the right thing using other artists for its products.

  


Prolific Collector

Posts: 181
Joined: Apr 02, 2004
Last Visit: May 26, 2014
Location: Sierra Foothills, CA

Post Posted: Wed May 05, 2004 5:48 am 
 

Sotterraneo wrote:
seeyouinescrow wrote: That's actually good to hear...I was really hoping that was the case...I could tell DSL's feelings were obviously quite personal, and deep seeded...

I have seen Dave Sutherland's artwork and it is not good.


This I have a problem with obviously....in addition, DSL did not really come off as bitter...just sounded quite matter of fact really...it was just apparent that he had no love for the guy.  Dave seemed quite at peace and secure in himself...not at all as if he were looking to stir up any controversy or the like...but your comment to me is blasphemy. You "have seen" Sutherland's artwork..well, some of us grew up with it. To say what you said tells me already that you feel that "your" opinion of an artist should be taken as truth?  That being your belief...shows me you really don't even understand the true nature of art.....also sounds contemptuous..much the way DSL described GG...hmmm. Funny thing...his artwork was so "not good" that he was only able to land 2 of the 3 AD&D 1st hardbook covers...frankly Trampier to me is not my style...would have been better if DSL got all 3 as far as I'm concerned,
anyway....

  

User avatar

Verbose Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 1291
Joined: Nov 24, 2002
Last Visit: Dec 25, 2020
Location: Brescia, Italy

Post Posted: Wed May 05, 2004 6:13 am 
 

seeyouinescrow wrote:
You "have seen" Sutherland's artwork..well, some of us grew up with it. To say what you said tells me already that you feel that "your" opinion of an artist should be taken as truth?  That being your belief...shows me you really don't even understand the true nature of art.....also sounds contemptuous..much the way DSL described GG...hmmm. Funny thing...his artwork was so "not good" that he was only able to land 2 of the 3 AD&D 1st hardbook covers...frankly Trampier to me is not my style...would have been better if DSL got all 3 as far as I'm concerned,
anyway....

As I stated in my previous message, I'm convinced that the nostalgia factor is very high here. I have seen Sutherland's artwork in the same places you saw them, but I don't have any particular 'good old days' feeling for them. The problem is not judging what is 'art' (I agree this is really subjective), but judging what is good, quality commercial art. For making an example, let's confront Otus' art and Elmore's art: Elmore's art is superior, it's not simply a question of style or personal preferences. I understand your feelings and I respect them and I didn't want to seem a jerk, trashing other people's work carelessly. I respect Sutherland's artwork and of course I agree its work it's a piece of history for gaming. But I still I'm convinced that as soon as TSR could afford to have better artists, the former ones were - sadly but understandably - let go.  I have sen this happening for Magic the Gathering too: better sales = better artwork budget = better artists.

  


Prolific Collector

Posts: 193
Joined: Nov 05, 2002
Last Visit: Jul 18, 2012
Location: Charleston, SC

Post Posted: Wed May 05, 2004 8:46 am 
 

mordrin wrote:Posts should be made on forums, emails sent to top RPG game stores, maybe emails/forum posts to prominent fantasy artists...

Also contact Ebay about maybe giving it a nice front-page feature.


Good ideas, also you might look into advertising it in periodicals.  Not sure how much it costs to run an ad in Dragon, but KoDT is inexpensive.

 WWW  

User avatar

Verbose Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 1250
Joined: Jan 01, 2003
Last Visit: Jan 08, 2021

Post Posted: Wed May 05, 2004 11:58 am 
 

Wow... congratulations to you for quite possibly the best find ever.  
If you do buy it would you tell us how much it was sold for?  
I have a ballpark figure in my head and I'm curious to know how close it is.  
:D

  


Prolific Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 905
Joined: Apr 09, 2003
Last Visit: Nov 09, 2015
Location: Karlsruhe, Germany

Post Posted: Wed May 05, 2004 3:53 pm 
 

Sotterraneo wrote:But I still I'm convinced that as soon as TSR could afford to have better artists, the former ones were - sadly but understandably - let go.


In case of Sutherland he moved back into second row concerning publications. Actually, he became the map man for TSR, he has dozens of credits for cartography. However, he was also head of the art department for some time.

I completely agree with Ciro that the Fab Four of TSR (Easley, Caldwell, Elmore and Parkinson) were all technically much better artists then Sutherland, Trampier or Roslof. Still, Trampier's PHB cover is a terrific work of art and can easily compete with the later stuff. However, the greatest art of the early painters surely came from Erol Otus. His art is timeless, it is today as spectacularly weird and magnificent as it must have been in those days when he first created it.

But that's just my opinion.


- "When the going gets weird, the Weird turn pro."

Hunter S. Thompson (July 18, 1937 - Feb 20, 2005)



  


Active Collector

Posts: 17
Joined: Nov 27, 2002
Last Visit: Apr 24, 2007
Location: Cambridge, Ontario (you think you have snow?)

Post Posted: Wed May 05, 2004 9:55 pm 
 

Seeyouinescrow:

My advice:
1.  Buy it.
2.  Don't feel guilty that the rest of us shmoes don't have it.
3.  Enjoy it for as long as you are able.

Because that's what I'd be doing if DCS offered it to me.

He obviously wants his art to go to someone who actually appreciates/values it.  Money probably doesn't mean as much to him at this point of his life as does giving his originals a good home.

I mean, how many times will this kind of event happen to you again?
-M

(My favourite DCS picture is the Monster Manual's Umberhulk followed closely by--for obvious reasons--the Succubus...)


"Is it secret; is it safe?"

  

User avatar

Grandstanding Collector

Posts: 5613
Joined: Jun 30, 2003
Last Visit: Jan 23, 2021
Location: New Hampsha

Post Posted: Thu May 06, 2004 12:20 am 
 

The succubus in D3 has her beat.
I'm not a fan of original art, but I'm guessing the original art for the DMG, if it is a unique item, could quite easily get $5,000-$10,000. It is known the world over, and it's legitimacy is unquestionable.


If you hit a Rowsdower, you get to keep it.

 WWW  


Prolific Collector

Posts: 350
Joined: Feb 19, 2003
Last Visit: Apr 03, 2018
Location: CA

Post Posted: Thu May 06, 2004 2:19 am 
 

Actually, I think you should buy it, and then, work out a schedule where you ship it around to all us members in the forum so we can hang it in our dens and take pictures of it, show it off to our friends and charge admission for other old grognards to see it.

In this way, you may appease your conscience! :)

(just kidding... since you don't know me... I am rarely serious)

Wow.. Great find... but, it makes me a little sad because this was the item I had hoped to stumble on myself some day... in some forgotten flea market or game store sale...

Just a few months ago we were talking about this as probably been thrown out by TSR along with all the other art they threw out.

It's a little bit like looking for Bigfoot all your life and then you show up and you've got him in your living room... takes a TOUCH of the fun out of hoping to find it elsewhere, but, who knows.. maybe you'll pass it on to the community some day via Ebay or private sale and I'll get another chance! :D


-------------------------------------------------

  


Prolific Collector

Posts: 181
Joined: Apr 02, 2004
Last Visit: May 26, 2014
Location: Sierra Foothills, CA

Post Posted: Thu May 06, 2004 3:38 am 
 

JonOakes wrote:Actually, I think you should buy it, and then, work out a schedule where you ship it around to all us members in the forum so we can hang it in our dens and take pictures of it, show it off to our friends and charge admission for other old grognards to see it.


You know Jon....if I do get this...I was going to put it out there that any Bay area, or North-Cals who are around and don't mind making the trek to Folsom...I would welcome you into my home, and be more than happy to share this with anyone who wouldn't mind stopping by....so really...you're not too far off, either way!

  

User avatar

Verbose Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 1250
Joined: Jan 01, 2003
Last Visit: Jan 08, 2021

Post Posted: Thu May 06, 2004 10:07 am 
 

seeyouinescrow wrote:You know Jon....if I do get this...I was going to put it out there that any Bay area, or North-Cals who are around and don't mind making the trek to Folsom...I would welcome you into my home, and be more than happy to share this with anyone who wouldn't mind stopping by....so really...you're not too far off, either way!


You know I have a sister that lives in Oakland.  Next time I come out to visit I may try to stop by... your home could become a new kind of D&D Graceland.   8)

  

User avatar

Grandstanding Collector

Posts: 5613
Joined: Jun 30, 2003
Last Visit: Jan 23, 2021
Location: New Hampsha

Post Posted: Thu May 06, 2004 10:18 am 
 

You guys are forgetting something. This is only ONE of the things DSL is selling.


If you hit a Rowsdower, you get to keep it.

 WWW  


Prolific Collector

Posts: 350
Joined: Feb 19, 2003
Last Visit: Apr 03, 2018
Location: CA

Post Posted: Thu May 06, 2004 7:32 pm 
 

Huzzah!  I'm in San Jose... I'll bet Grodog and I could find a way to make a Pilgrimage to have our dice blessed in front of the DMG painting! :D

Keep me in the loop!  It'd be great to see it.


-------------------------------------------------

  

User avatar

Verbose Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 1250
Joined: Jan 01, 2003
Last Visit: Jan 08, 2021

Post Posted: Thu May 06, 2004 7:59 pm 
 

Deadlord36 wrote:You guys are forgetting something. This is only ONE of the things DSL is selling.


But the DMG cover is the one I would really, really want.  
"A Paladin in Hell" is cool, but I've never been much for paladins as a player and I prefer the color paintings.  
I imagine the DMG would go for over $10,000 if put on eBay, if not significantly more.  I remember Aaron had the Deities and Demigods original cover art for sale a couple years back and he sold it to a musician from some famous alternative rock band.  I forgot which one, but needless this guy has some deep pockets.  Two guys like that and the price could reach some pretty high levels.

  
PreviousNext
Post new topic Reply to topic Page 2 of 31, 2, 3