My conversation with DSL III......
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Post Posted: Tue May 04, 2004 12:05 am 
 

WOW...where to begin...recently, I met Dave's sister on EBay, and she asked if I might know of a place to sell original DMG artwork... at the time I didn't know this was Dave's sister, so I was of course skeptical...anyway, after further communications I began to believe that this was on the level. Dave is in poor health, as most of you know, and has decided to sell his own personal collection, including DMG artwork, Paladin in Hell original (P.H. page 23), and some other non TSR work that he has done over the last 8-10 years..and other items I'm sure...ok, so yesterday, his sister (Trudy) sends me an email, asking for my home phone number so that Dave can call me to "Talk D&D"...whoa did that floor me!! Well, sure enough, today at 7:00 PST on the dot...there's Dave Sutherland on my caller id!! Well, we just now got off the phone, and I have a lot to report...it's still all quite surreal to me...so I'll just keep adding to  this post with things we (mostly he) discussed...and anyone out there please feel free to ask any questions, as right now my mind is spinning, and I am having a hard time organizing all my thoughts, but throughout the evening, I will keep adding to the post

  


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Post Posted: Tue May 04, 2004 12:16 am 
 

FIrst off...Dave does not own a computer, nor does he want to. Also, Dave has not received any of the letters that Cent put together...don't know why, maybe Dave's mom still has them.  Good news is Dave wants to hear from anyone who would care to write to him!

  


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Post Posted: Tue May 04, 2004 12:33 am 
 

Let's see...about the 1st 1/2 hour of our conversation was spent listening to Dave talk about the old days...pre TSR, etc. That is mostly a blur at this moment, as I was somewhat stunned that DSL called my house..but the thing that stands out most was the vitriol he had for G.G. He would only refer to him as "Gygax" and called him "a dispicable human being" and he wouldn't talk to him even "if he were on bended knee". OK, so maybe this is common knowledge that G.G. wasn't the easiest person to get along with...but I had no idea just how awful he was...

  


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Post Posted: Tue May 04, 2004 1:04 am 
 

So.....per Dave...G.G. hated fantasy, and was never in favor of doing anything other than historical war gaming, and it was only after Arneson's sucess with his Blackmoor campaign, and G.G.'s lack of sucess with his own campaigns, that G.G. decided that it was in his best "financial" interests to incorporate Arneson's work into his Chainmail rules (again bear with me if this is common knowledge)...per DSL III, G.G. was despised by all he came in contact with, and his only real motivations were control and $$ (if this is common knowledge, it wasn't to me, and it personally saddened me to hear what a real prick Gygax was)

  


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Post Posted: Tue May 04, 2004 1:14 am 
 

All right, on to other happier thoughts....now this I found of extreme interest...per Dave (and maybe he is confused about this), he says that he had bought a set of original rules in a woodgrain box back in 1973 (again, maybe he has the year wrong)...but he said that the box contained no artwork whatsoever on the box top...and that it was just a plain woodgrain box with no distinguishing markings on it whatsoever...he purchased it from the wife of the now deceased (crap..the name escapes me) but anyway..he was one of the original guys who died of a heart attack over 20 years ago..crap, why can't I remember the name...anyway they were trying to sell these new box sets, but weren't having any sucess, due to the fact that it they were unmarked, and so shortly thereafter, they placed the paper cover on it for identification, and sales improved...now I am highly skeptical of this accounting, but maybe Foul will have something to add to this, but if this IS true, and there are actually "True First Print" woodgrains out there...now that would be something. Again, although DSL III seemed certain of this detail, I really cannot believe it to be true.

  


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Post Posted: Tue May 04, 2004 1:17 am 
 

OK...so I know that maybe this protocol is incorrect, but as I'm relatively new to this forum...does anyone have any comments they would lke to add, or is anybody actually reading this, or does anyone doubt my own validity? Let me know....

  


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Post Posted: Tue May 04, 2004 1:37 am 
 

All right...so I had hoped this would be a hot topic that would generate a big response, but maybe just not yet...I'll close for now by saying that Dave will be sending me "Paladin in Hell" original in the next few days, so that I can market it for him. My plan is to 1st bring this item here, and to open it up to bids amongst Acaeum members only (Foul...let me know if this is ok, or how I should work it)...then if the amount is acceptable to DSL III... (oh...and by the way..very important...DSL is NOT about money! He is actually quite the philanthropist, but gave most of his money away, and is now saddled by huge medical bills...so I and others of this forum believe that we owe it to him to do what we can)...it will be a good sale...if not, then I'll Ebay it, and see what happens there. Either way...this is Certainly one of the most Exciting pieces to come around and I am proud to be able to bring it HERE first!!

  


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Post Posted: Tue May 04, 2004 1:59 am 
 

That's an amazing story.  Hey, so we don't know what happened with Centurion's notes.. you should print out the thread where we wrote to him and give it to him.  He should know, man.

As for the art, that's Freakin awesome news.  I doubt I can afford it but I'll be very interested!

How about the original DMG cover?  Is that anywhere?  All his art, IMHO should be in the Smithsonian.  It's IMPORTANT to MILLIONS of people!

It sounds like he's doing okay, although not well.. Cent's thread made it sound like he was dying any day.  I'm glad to know he's doing well enough to vent about GG.  I can't pass judgement on any of those guys as I don't know ANY of them, but the stories are all very interesting.


Also, I guess you have to consider at this point that those feuds can be up to 30 years old... people can change ALOT over that time so maybe all parties have grown and matured a bit.  Hell... I'm even starting to see a softer side of folks like Steve Jobs and Larry Ellison!  Mortality has a way of making people mellow a bit I think. :D

Keep the thoughts coming!  Part of the value of the Acaeum is to document all these tidbits for posterity.  Even a small fact or story here and there builds the legend and the knowledge of everyone.  

If you get a chance, and he'd be willing, you should record an interview with him and get him to tell what he remembers and then ask if you can transcribe or post the recording here.  That would be really cool.

Keep more thoughts coming!  Take better notes next time too! :D


-------------------------------------------------

  


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Post Posted: Tue May 04, 2004 2:07 am 
 

Yes...absoulutely I will print it out and send it to him..believe me, I ceratinly tried to convey to him how much we think of his work, and how it influenced all of us...oh like I said, he wants to hear from anyone interested..and he said it was ok that I posted his home address for correspondence....

720 Ashmun Street Apt. 3
Sault Ste. Marie
Michigan 49783

DMG artwork...well....that might upset some people here, but my next post will address this issue....

  


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Post Posted: Tue May 04, 2004 3:52 am 
 

seeyouinescrow wrote: he said that the box contained no artwork whatsoever on the box top...and that it was just a plain woodgrain box with no distinguishing markings on it whatsoever...he purchased it from the wife of the now deceased (crap..the name escapes me) but anyway..he was one of the original guys who died of a heart attack over 20 years ago..crap, why can't I remember the name...


Was it Don Kaye? The guy with whom Gygax and Blume started TSR? Very interesting news. Next time you talk to him, please ask him to tell more about the old days.


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Post Posted: Tue May 04, 2004 8:13 am 
 

seeyouinescrow wrote:All right, on to other happier thoughts....now this I found of extreme interest...per Dave (and maybe he is confused about this), he says that he had bought a set of original rules in a woodgrain box back in 1973 (again, maybe he has the year wrong)...but he said that the box contained no artwork whatsoever on the box top...and that it was just a plain woodgrain box with no distinguishing markings on it whatsoever...he purchased it from the wife of the now deceased (crap..the name escapes me) but anyway..he was one of the original guys who died of a heart attack over 20 years ago..crap, why can't I remember the name...anyway they were trying to sell these new box sets, but weren't having any sucess, due to the fact that it they were unmarked, and so shortly thereafter, they placed the paper cover on it for identification, and sales improved...now I am highly skeptical of this accounting, but maybe Foul will have something to add to this, but if this IS true, and there are actually "True First Print" woodgrains out there...now that would be something. Again, although DSL III seemed certain of this detail, I really cannot believe it to be true.


Pretty sure this was Don Kaye (see a picture of his house where the first D&D sets were put together on my home page).

I do remember at one Gen Con auction, there was a woodgrain box (just the box), that only had the small label on the side of the box.  Frank Mentzer would know.



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Post Posted: Tue May 04, 2004 9:05 am 
 

Just checking your hp, muaddib. Nice photos of Lake Geneva! You should have taken that "TSR Inc." sign and put it on eBay ...


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Post Posted: Tue May 04, 2004 10:42 am 
 

Needless to say, a very interesting series of posts!  

I think a lot of us would love to bid on those old Sutherland works.  
The DMG cover belongs in the Smithsonian.  If I win it  :wink:  I'll write the Smithsonian to see about them adding it to their collection.  D&D has become as integral a piece of Americana as Archie Bunker's recliner.  
It would be a shame to hang on a den wall in a private home when it's something all should be able to enjoy.  The other grail item would be Tramp's PH cover, but Gygax supposedly has that one himself.  

I agree with the others that it was probably Don Kaye's widow that Sutherland was talking about.  She doesn't come off to well in the official history.  Wonder what happened to the Blume brothers...  

And I enjoyed Muaddib's pics of "historic" Lake Geneva.  That was great... someone should establish a tour bus operation to take us around.   8)

  


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Post Posted: Tue May 04, 2004 11:55 am 
 

Ralf Toth wrote:
seeyouinescrow wrote: he said that the box contained no artwork whatsoever on the box top...and that it was just a plain woodgrain box with no distinguishing markings on it whatsoever...he purchased it from the wife of the now deceased (crap..the name escapes me) but anyway..he was one of the original guys who died of a heart attack over 20 years ago..crap, why can't I remember the name...


Was it Don Kaye? The guy with whom Gygax and Blume started TSR? Very interesting news. Next time you talk to him, please ask him to tell more about the old days.


Thanks Ralf....yes Don Kaye...I'll be posting more later, but I would encourage all to write to him as well..

  


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Post Posted: Tue May 04, 2004 12:00 pm 
 

For all interested in seeing that original DMG artwork...well, check this out!

AOL Lifestream : Login

Hope this will passify for now....

  


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Post Posted: Tue May 04, 2004 1:34 pm 
 

seeyouinescrow wrote:I'll close for now by saying that Dave will be sending me "Paladin in Hell" original in the next few days, so that I can market it for him. My plan is to 1st bring this item here, and to open it up to bids amongst Acaeum members only


I recommend advertising it here for a couple weeks ant then list it on ebay.  That should bring the largest return.  I hear you Dave is not about money, but medical bills can be expensive, I would like to see him get it's true value.

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Post Posted: Tue May 04, 2004 1:43 pm 
 

Ralf Toth wrote:Just checking your hp, muaddib. Nice photos of Lake Geneva! You should have taken that "TSR Inc." sign and put it on eBay ...


We thought about it!!  :D



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Post Posted: Tue May 04, 2004 2:18 pm 
 

If it's eventually going to go on Ebay, I think a good deal of pre-work should be done, otherwise many will never know about it until too late.

Posts should be made on forums, emails sent to top RPG game stores, maybe emails/forum posts to prominent fantasy artists...

Also contact Ebay about maybe giving it a nice front-page feature.

  


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Post Posted: Tue May 04, 2004 3:37 pm 
 

mordrin wrote:If it's eventually going to go on Ebay, I think a good deal of pre-work should be done, otherwise many will never know about it until too late.

Posts should be made on forums, emails sent to top RPG game stores, maybe emails/forum posts to prominent fantasy artists...

Also contact Ebay about maybe giving it a nice front-page feature.


Thanks Mordrin...all great ideas..all will be done..keep those ideas and thoughts coming...I'll mail out Cent's letters today

  


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Post Posted: Tue May 04, 2004 6:06 pm 
 

FWIW, I've known Rob Kuntz and Gary Gygax for some years (Rob for longer than Gary), and DCSIII's characterization of Gary doesn't jibe with what I've known and experienced.  That doesn't mean that his POV isn't valid, it just doesn't square with the Gary I've known personally and via Rob since the late 1980s.

edit:  hmmm, left out the most important phrase:  that's what I get for posting from work between meetings ;)


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