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Post Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2004 1:41 am 

You could file a fraud claim with ebay but they would only reimburse you
upto $200 (ain't Ebay great huh?).

eBay: Redirect

The best thing to do would be a chargeback on your credit card (please tell me you used a credit card to fund your paypal??) or if you paid him via balance or checking you can file a chargeback within 30 days of payment (i think).

Paypal should whip the money back from his account (or his bank account)

If and when you get the money back ship the stuf back to the seller at your cost and chalk it down to experience...


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Post Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2004 6:02 am 

I sent a note to the seller offering to 'help him' figure out if his set was really first printing or not... since I actually DO have a First print woodgrain (my prized possession!)..

I offered to send pics/scans of the books and he didn't take me up on it.

I have a feeling this guy is the type who feels 'caveat emptor' is all the philosophy he needs to sleep well at night.

Paul, you could try filing suit...but I'd talk to a lawyer about it first.




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Post Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2004 12:21 pm 

I think this volume three is a 1st printing.

Comparing my own personal 1st printing to my 6th printing, I see these differences:
    1st printing inside cover: 542 Sage St, with "printed in usa"
    6th printing inside cover: POB 756
I can see the "printed in usa" in the pictures - but can't read the address.
    1st printing cover: lighter than the others - but retains the smooth card stock. Inside covers are white.  The blue lettering is light.
    6th printing cover is darker than the 1st, and inside covers are as dark as the outside.  Card stock is flat/not glossy.  The blue lettering is dark.
The pictures look like my 1st.

The interiors of both editions are very different.  Not only a new font, but many of the drawings are redone.  For example, on page 4, the 1st edition has a hand lettered, light map, while the 6th printing is a black map with printed letters.  The inside back cover of the first lists a graphic printing company while the 6th lists none.

The only thing to suggest that this is not a 1st is the size.  1st printings are slightly taller.

My guess is that the booklet in question is a mild printing anomoly.  Did they print all 1000 booklets in a single batch?  Or did they print more as they needed them (that is, are there really different printings of the 1st print?)


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Post Posted: Sat May 01, 2004 12:12 am 

OK couldn't stop myself:
This thread has been reading like a thriller,
arguments back and forth, threats with lawyers, now Enkidu's last point (looks somewhat compelling to a newbie  - at least in collecting -like me) and then silence ....

It's agonizing!

What is happening, has an agreement been reached, is it a real 1st edition after all  (embarrassing after all this), are hostilities ongoing, have one or both 'players' vanished from the face of the earth, or filed for bankruptcy?


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Post Posted: Sat May 01, 2004 3:19 pm 

Unfortunately -- and I'm going to publicly apologize to Paul Stormberg for this -- I've been traveling for much of the last few months, and haven't had a chance to sit down and puzzle this out.  I simply assumed that he had a confirmed Sixth print Book 3, which is easy to discern, but it appears this is not the case.

There's really only three possibilities that I see here:

1. The book 3 is a forgery.  A Sixth print booklet was used, a cover price added, and a "Lake Geneva" printer stamp added to the rear cover.  However, Sixth print booklets have a noticeably darker print on the outside cover than First prints do, and the internal typeface is *completely different*.  So a forgery is not a possibility, as I see it.

2. The book 3 is from a later print.  Well, since it lacks a printing notice on the inside cover, the only possibilities here are that it's a Fifth or Sixth print, neither of which had any printing notice.  But this booklet has a cover price, has the printer stamp, and has the old-style typeface.  So this is not a possibility.

3. The book 3 is a misprint.  In comparing it with my own First-print Book 3, the ONLY thing which does not match up with Paul's description is the color of the interior cover.  Mine is definitely white; Paul states his is buff-colored.  Everything else matches -- my Book 3 is slightly smaller than the other two books (in fact, Book 2 is slightly taller than the other two, with Book 1 in the middle!).  It's quite possible that this set was either one of the first or the last printed from that First print batch, where the paper color was the same on both sides?  We'll never know.

Assuming that all the details of Paul's Book 3 I mention above are correct, I feel it's safe to assume that it's a true-blooded First print, albeit with a tiny discrepancy.


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Post Posted: Sat May 01, 2004 3:53 pm 


So, ironically, Paul may have the rarest of 1st prints in excellent condition rather than a 6th print forgery?

Dang... That would be awesome for Paul and even a minor find for the collectable world as well.

Foul's logic is good, and, who knows more about this stuff than he does?

Is this case closed or can anyone add some doubt back into the mystery?  Do I have to write to the seller and apologize for falsely accusing him of something?  Or do we carry on the crusade to defend stormber?

How much are the movie rights to this plot twisting mystery? ;)



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Post Posted: Sat May 01, 2004 8:02 pm 

Not to prolong this discussion or disparage the seller in any way, but, the seller does have an artistic side.  Just check out the past purchases of pen and ink drawings and paintings.  With all of the oddities associated with this book, it could incline one to wonder if we have someone here that is capable of producing a forgery.  All it takes is a little investigative work and the right artistic capabilities, and some effort, to create the illusion of a first print from a later one...

This might be one of those cases that are never solved unless someone turns up another identical copy.


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Post Posted: Sat May 01, 2004 9:25 pm 

If the interior type face is the same as a first print, then I say it is the genuine article. I'm going out on a limb here, but the good old boys of TSR probably used a mom and pop printer shop - and quality control was not exactly the same as we expect today.

I have a some of knowledge in this particular area. I have a journalism degree and worked for a medium-sized newspaper and then as a communications director for a large organization. I handled mostly graphic design and print production (computers were just entering the field back then).

I worked with small and large printers; and from that, I can assure all you that small print runs generated from the single press printers can and will result in some flawed copies. Remember, the small shops may run short of materials (i.e. make paper changes from different lots), print half a run one day and the rest the next day (creates ink discrepencies).

At this point, I am guessing that this book is the real deal. Or ... the seller has graphic design/print production knowledge and access to the tools necessary to create a forgery. Either way, it is very unlikely the truth will surface.

But if the only real difference is paper color - and a minor change at that - then I can say with confidence, this book is just a flawed copy from the first printing. It wouldn't shock me in the least if the printer ran out of paper and substituted what he had laying around because it was close enough...

And forget that size crap. The book covers were most likely hand fed into a cutter, agian on different days or by different people. That would easily explain the difference between books.

And I could've bought these damn modules off the 1$ rack!!!

New modules for your Old School game

Everything Pacesetter at


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Post Posted: Sat May 01, 2004 9:27 pm 

I had also talked to this seller before auctions end, I certainly agree that forgery is out of the Foul states..impossible to be a 5th/6th print....therefore Option 3 must apply...I have to go with mystery solved...

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