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Post Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2004 1:18 pm 
 

Howdy,


enkidu wrote:Vol 3 in the picture shows no printing # on the cover sheet - looks like a 1st to me.


Unfortunately, some reprints have verbatim text to the 1st print and give no indication they are a reprint.

The only way to tell is to look at the cover material. First print books are of a new-leather color exterior face and a white interior face. Looking at the auction in hindsight, one can see that the book is clearly different - light buff colored inside and out. The assurances the seller gave via email convinced me otherwise.

Alas, we tend to remain quiet about desireable items until after the auction has ended to avoid tipping our hand to other bidders herein.


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Post Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2004 1:28 pm 
 

You might want to consider, Paul, swapping out the 3rd volume for a First print version, if you have one.  From the pictures, that set looks like it's in pretty darn good condition, and if the only fault is that it's missing a 3rd volume (in effect), then a simple replacement operation would restore its value.

While the practice of cobbling together a First print set might seem questionable to some, look at it this way: Either Gary Gygax cobbled it together 30 years ago in his living room, or you cobble it together now, to give yourself the best-quality set possible.

Just an idea.  I wouldn't consider that set, even with a missing 3rd volume, to be a loss -- just takes some additional "restorative" work.

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Post Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2004 2:24 pm 
 

Howdy,


FoulFoot wrote:You might want to consider, Paul, swapping out the 3rd volume for a First print version, if you have one.  From the pictures, that set looks like it's in pretty darn good condition, and if the only fault is that it's missing a 3rd volume (in effect), then a simple replacement operation would restore its value.


The plan was to sell my current 1st print set to offset the cost - perhaps break even. With out that, I can't afford it. Unless, someone want's to sell me a first print vol. 3... anybody?

Anyhow, I emailed the guy, gave him the appropriate references and told him to expect emails from those of you who bid. Thanks to all who help.


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Paul


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Post Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2004 2:26 pm 
 

Howdy All,


BTW the vol. 3 booklet in the set I just bought is a 6th print or later.


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Paul


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Post Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2004 2:47 pm 
 

OUCH!  Sorry it wasn't what you hoped for Paul... Dang... that blows.


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Post Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2004 4:41 pm 
 

That blows, indeed... it's a shame our worst fears were confirmed.  
Foulfoot's suggestion was a sound one; it's too bad it won't work out.
Would it be useful for those of us who didn't bid on this auction to send a polite e-mail to the seller?  Or should we restrict this to the bidders?  
The seller might be more resistant to a refund if he feels like he's being piled on but since you've dealt with him you would know better.  Let us know what you think, and I'm sorry it turned out this way.

  


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Post Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2004 11:09 pm 
 

Howdy Folks,


Need your help comrades...

O.K. anybody and everybody please email this guy.

Even if you don't have 1st print set. Please email this guy. He is refusing to accept that the booklet is from a later print. The Acaeum pages are not enough to convince him or help my cause. I have even contacted Gary Gygax and Frank Mentzer on the subject, forwarding their responses to him. Both agree that there were no stock changes in the 1st print and that the volume in question is from a later print!

Team burntwire please email him - as you are the only other bidders on the auction that I know. Only one other bidder emailed him regarding their reservations and suspicion of the authenticity of the item. Apparently that is not enough.

Does anybody have the same volume 3 pictured in the auction listing? It is verbatim, 1st print except size and cardstock.

Please contact Carl (and Cc or Bcc me [email protected] and my PayPal account rep. [email protected] in on the email). The fellow's email address is: [email protected]

Thank you for your help.


Futures  Bright,

Paul

For the record, what has been said...

I got the D&D woodgrain and sadly it is not wholly a 1st print. The 3rd volume as some of you had noted - post auction - is a later reprint. The rest are all 1st print materials. I am currently in the process of enacting a return but the fellow is balking at my claims that the third volume is not part of the set.

Thus I come to you folks to aid me (especially those that bid on the item). An examination of the booklet in the auction pics shows that it's color does not match the others. In one picture, it shows vol. 3 open and the interior has a buff cast to it. In fact the interior of the booklet is the same buff cardstock as the exterior and is thus a later print. The other booklets of the first print are all new-leather colored on the outside and white on this inside. Further the booklet is slightly shorter than the others in the set - this can be seen by the closeness of the cover printing to the bottom edge of the book in the auction pictures. A subtle difference but a difference nonetheless.

The text, however, is verbatim to the 1st print. Thus the seller's pause to refund. I am trying to make it clear that the third book is a later reprint only by virtue of the completely different buff colored (inside and out) cardstock. Further, it should have been apparent to the person handling the set that the books were different in this way. In person, and with the other books to compare it to it is clear the book cover is different. In hindsight (the post auction discussion here aroused my suspicion), the book pictured in the auction is clearly not the same as the other two and has a buff interior. At the time I ascribed it to age but having the set now in my hands it is obvious that the auction picture did not lie. I le the assurance of the individual email, and the bidding fervor, cloud my judgement.

At the time of bidding I think many of us were suspicious of the printing. However, the fellow's email to all bidders indicated this was a 1st printing (double underscored in the email) and that he had a third party evaluate it (Troy D. is given thanks for his help in the email).

The listing can be found here:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... gory=44114

I would like all here who feel qualified to speak (especially the bidders invloved) to please contact Carl (and Cc or Bcc [email protected] and my PayPal account rep. [email protected] in on the email). The fellow's email address is: [email protected]

Please email him with your observations of the 3rd volume pictured in the auction and it's later print status, my credibility, and long standing membership in this community of collectors.


Futures Bright,

Paul


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Post Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2004 1:26 am 
 

I was very hesitant to bid on it given the coloration difference in the booklets. The seeler was vague, and didn't seem to be very responsive to questions. Caveat Emptor.


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Post Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2004 2:48 am 
 

This pains me to say it Paul.... it really does because I'd be PISSSED OFF if this happened to me....

But....

I'm biting my lip as I type.....

I think yer screwed bud.....

His auction is pretty clear about it being as is, all sales final and a legalistic reading of the description dances close to, but never actually says all the parts are a first print.

Did you get hosed? TOTALLY.  Should he give you a refund (or at least partial) YES.  Do you have a case?  I don't think so.

I don't argue with your assessment of the set.  You got rooked... but I don't suspect foul play, just ignorance.

Geez... it sucks he won't help you out or relist the item.... but I don't know what you can do if he's not feeling conscientious about it.

-Jon


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Post Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2004 10:05 am 
 

Howdy Frank,


Deadlord36 wrote:I was very hesitant to bid on it given the coloration difference in the booklets. The seeler was vague, and didn't seem to be very responsive to questions.


His private email seemed very confident and informed, I thought.

Well if you'd pass along your reservations about bidding on the set to Carl ([email protected]) and Cc: my PayPal rep [email protected], I'd appreciate it.


Futures Bright,

Paul


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Post Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2004 1:52 pm 
 

stormber wrote:Howdy All,


BTW the vol. 3 booklet in the set I just bought is a 6th print or later.


Paul


I'm confused by this: doesn't the picture show a 1st print - cover price & no printing
number on the first page?  Is it the same flimsy card stock as the later printings?
If so, then how did that cover price get there?  Later printings have different content
and font.  What's on the rear cover?  Sorry if I'm missing something simple...

  

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Post Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2004 2:05 pm 
 

I was wondering the same thing. If the book doesn't have a printing number and has the cover price and it isn't a first print, then what is it. The email I received stated that "it seems to be a first print". If you would like me to email the seller on your behalf, PM me and let me know what you would like said. I hope this comes to a happy conclusion for you Paul.

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Post Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2004 2:37 pm 
 

Check the cover price carefully.  Does it look like it could have been added later?  My bet is that it was.  Perhaps a slightly different color ink or something will be a tip off.

Check the internal typeface.  Is it the same as other two?  If it's not, you know you have a doctored later print.  If it's the same, it may be a 1st print booklet with a doctored cover (perhaps the original was missing it's cover)

This sounds like more than just seller ignorance but an actual scam job.  Knowing he only had 2/3 of a complete 1st print, he probably added the price to a 6th print and pretended to know nothing.  That is why he is not going to give your money back.  

Forward this to your Paypal rep because you were scammed and they should protect your purchase.

  


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Post Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2004 12:28 pm 
 

Paul,
I was looking at this one, but the dollars got a bit high"

I originally emailed the seller 24/03 to clarify the actual printing:
"Howdy,
> Do the books have any printing reference on the inside cover eg 2nd printing etc, or an errata sheet?
> Thanking in advance for your reply,
> Addermcone'

To which the reply:
"Negative on both.  I believe this to be the original (first printing) edition as it contains no revisions.  
 
Hope that helps.
                     ~ Carl (troublshooter2003)"

The update he sent out later, which everyone must have received:
UPDATE ~ PLEASE READ ~ Additional information for the following eBay listing:

DUNGEONS & DRAGONS Original 1974 Boxed Set (Pre-TSR)

Classic D&D Role Playing Game ~ VINTAGE ~ NEAR MINT ! Item number: 3183893547

To view the item, go to: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/ebayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 3183893547

THIS IS THE FIRST PRINTING (JANUARY 1974).  
           ==============  ============

The inside cover of Volume 1 is blank and states only:

"INQUIRIES REGARDING RULES SHOULD BE
ACCOMPANIED BY A STAMPED RETURN ENVELOPE AND SENT
TO TACTICAL STUDIES RULES, 542 SAGE STREET, LAKE
GENEVA, WISCONSIN 53147."

Below that

"Printed in U.S.A."

The inside back cover of Volume 2  has an illustration of a wizard (?) at a brazier, and Volume 3 has an illustraion titled "ELEMENTALS" and below that each volume shows

"GRAPHIC PRINTING COMPANY"
"LAKE GENEVA, WISCONSIN"

It is my honest opinion that this was one of the first 1000 ever printed, and was very likely hand assembled by E. Gary Gygax himself and friends of his in his home early in 1974.  This game was purchased by me a few years back from a second-hand shop within a few miles of Lake Geneva, Wisconsin.  Any further provenance will have to be the future responsibility of the winning bidder.  Thank you again for the interest you have shown.

For further information, please visit the following link:

Page Not Found

My thanks to Troy D. for his assistance.


~ Carl Baumeister (troubleshooter2003)

...get to the point everyone's saying? :x

and Volume 3 has an illustraion titled "ELEMENTALS" and below that each volume shows

"GRAPHIC PRINTING COMPANY"
"LAKE GENEVA, WISCONSIN"


The third book, sixth printing doesn't have a printer on the bottom, i checked my copy, whereas the first printing should. He's stated that EACH VOLUME has it. 8O

I think that's a very good technicality :D

Just thought I'd throw my 02s worth in to see if it helps.

AdderMcOne

  

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Post Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2004 1:31 pm 
 

I think that there are some key points to be considered about the Book 3.  Please keep in mind that I am just proposing this from an "investigational standpoint" - it is not my intention to accuse or seller, but to present an explanation that could explain the "doctored" Book 3.

- If it is a Sixth printing then the $3.50 price was added a later date.  With that being said, it seems unlikely that the seller's explanation on how he acquired them accounts for this "addition".
 
"This game was purchased by me a few years back from a second-hand shop within a few miles of Lake Geneva, Wisconsin."

So, he happened upon a second hand shop and found a first edition set with a "doctored" book 3?  Impossible!  Sure, he could have made the find of a lifetime and actually come across a First edition set, but not one with a "forged" book 3.  Someone of extensive D&D knowledge would have been required to attempt such a thing - and someone of great "restoration" skills needed to make it a reality.  That same person did NOT let a first edition set get out of their hands and wind up at a Second hand store!!!!

But he might have found and imcomplete set at a second hand store. . .

- Lies and deception are often "hidden in plain sight".  It is a common human failing that occurs all the time:  Spouses cheating is a classic example though there are a hundred others.
Why do I mention it?   Of all the scans of all the books, there is only one of an inside cover and it is the afforementioned Book 3 - as if to say: "here is proof that can not be denied that Book 3 is a first edition - even though it looks different that the others"

Finally, and this is a real stretch, but let me present it anyway:  The seller has purchased MANY pen and ink original drawings by GDW.  I think the count is well above a dozen.  It is not unthinkable to assume that the seller has a particular interest in this medium and likely uses it himself.  Even if such "restoration" would be beyond his personal skiills, he may very well know someone in the field who could accomplish it.

Comic restoration (mainly color touches) can be seen by looking at them with a blacklight.  This may work in this situation - if not, there are professionals who can determine it for you.

P.S. - make sure to download some copies of the scans he has up before they are taken down. . . I have already done this just in case they are ever needed again.

Paul
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Post Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2004 10:07 pm 
 

Shit, I take a little R&R and come back to this mess.

I'm gonna start out with the obligatory: I'm not accusing the seller of anything...

...but, he never responded to my email in a coherent way.

Someone who has early printing books please pull them out if you have not already and lay them side to side. The logo of the vol. 3 is lower than the 1 & 2 in the auction (Pauls books). Is that consistent with later versions. I have much later printings and my versions are not aligned at all - the set in question is another animal. Vol 1 & 2 share near identical logo placement (including the price location as it relates to the bottom of the book). Take a look and Vol 3. It is clearly about a 1/4 inch lower than the others. That seems a bit odd to me, but maybe it is legit...


This whole thing really pisses me off. Jon is right, though. Unless the seller gets a religeon, this is gonna end badly for Paul. He, the seller, covered himself pretty well, which, in hindsight, is just a indictment on the auction overall. I think he knew something was not right - at the very least - and did his best to cover. The auction looked a little to casual for me. The descriptions were general, pics not very good, etc. When you consider what was being sold...I don't know... I've seen more detail on less collectable items. Again, this is mostly hindsight.


I really wonder about that cover price issue... :evil:  That just looks like downright fraud. And I think there is more to come. I know I have said this before, but I have the original holy grail modules - and I am the original owner so I know they are the real deal. But shit, it wouldn't take too much effort to reproduce them...and some day, some creep is gonna get his hands on one of the few originals, and bam...here come the frauds. I honestly can't believe it has not happened yet.


And I could've bought these damn modules off the 1$ rack!!!

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Post Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2004 1:41 am 
 

You could file a fraud claim with ebay but they would only reimburse you
upto $200 (ain't Ebay great huh?).

eBay: Redirect

The best thing to do would be a chargeback on your credit card (please tell me you used a credit card to fund your paypal??) or if you paid him via balance or checking you can file a chargeback within 30 days of payment (i think).

Paypal should whip the money back from his account (or his bank account)

If and when you get the money back ship the stuf back to the seller at your cost and chalk it down to experience...

  


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Post Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2004 6:02 am 
 

I sent a note to the seller offering to 'help him' figure out if his set was really first printing or not... since I actually DO have a First print woodgrain (my prized possession!)..

I offered to send pics/scans of the books and he didn't take me up on it.

I have a feeling this guy is the type who feels 'caveat emptor' is all the philosophy he needs to sleep well at night.

Paul, you could try filing suit...but I'd talk to a lawyer about it first.

-Jon


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Post Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2004 12:21 pm 
 

I think this volume three is a 1st printing.

Comparing my own personal 1st printing to my 6th printing, I see these differences:
    1st printing inside cover: 542 Sage St, with "printed in usa"
    6th printing inside cover: POB 756
I can see the "printed in usa" in the pictures - but can't read the address.
    1st printing cover: lighter than the others - but retains the smooth card stock. Inside covers are white.  The blue lettering is light.
    6th printing cover is darker than the 1st, and inside covers are as dark as the outside.  Card stock is flat/not glossy.  The blue lettering is dark.
The pictures look like my 1st.

The interiors of both editions are very different.  Not only a new font, but many of the drawings are redone.  For example, on page 4, the 1st edition has a hand lettered, light map, while the 6th printing is a black map with printed letters.  The inside back cover of the first lists a graphic printing company while the 6th lists none.

The only thing to suggest that this is not a 1st is the size.  1st printings are slightly taller.

My guess is that the booklet in question is a mild printing anomoly.  Did they print all 1000 booklets in a single batch?  Or did they print more as they needed them (that is, are there really different printings of the 1st print?)

  


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Post Posted: Sat May 01, 2004 12:12 am 
 

OK couldn't stop myself:
This thread has been reading like a thriller,
arguments back and forth, threats with lawyers, now Enkidu's last point (looks somewhat compelling to a newbie  - at least in collecting -like me) and then silence ....

It's agonizing!

What is happening, has an agreement been reached, is it a real 1st edition after all  (embarrassing after all this), are hostilities ongoing, have one or both 'players' vanished from the face of the earth, or filed for bankruptcy?

  
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