Not-so-Recent Fun Finds
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Post Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 8:12 pm 
 

I'm a bit undecided about the rights and wrongs of this - I would say though that as soon as someone asked about a BIN price about an item I was selling then alarm bells would ring for me, followed by a little research. If the seller cannot be bothered to do the research then that's his lookout.

As an aside one question I would ask  is - where on earth did he get this from?! This is a serious bit of kit that doesn't really tie in with the rest of the stuff he is selling (lots of the standard modules and mags from the mid 80's - the sort that many archetypal teenage gamers would have had, and that many 30 somethings still have in their closet to this day).
(And will anyone admit to contacting him to see if he has any other gems hidden away!?) :D


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Post Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 11:17 pm 
 

bclarkie wrote:
What are you a George Bush fan or something? 8O Flip flopping? 8O Let me guess you were the one who offered the 30 pounds....



Yeah well I mention that previous auction because like this one it had the potential to come to the same conclusion - that of one person getting ahead at another person's expense.  Just curious why people were so incensed previously but this one is ok.  Now I know.  Don't you think you are splitting hairs just a tad?  So if you stick your foot out to trip someone that's bad, but if you just nudge them a little in the hopes they trip themsleves, well then hey feel free to help yourself to whatever falls out of their pockets.

Someone mentioned that when simply making a BIN request you don't necessarily know what the response will be, so it's ok.  But if you are hoping to get someone's item at a steal then isn't that just as greedy as if you made that offer yourself?  According to what I'm hearing I guess not.  I guess when you want something for nothing (meaning someone else's value is diminished) these are the kind of hoops you have to jump through.

If you want a low price wouldn't the ethical business offer be something like "hey mr. seller, that item has a potential value of x if the right people are bidding at the right time and the condition is good.  But who knows ...I'll give you half that amount and you don't have to worry." Or insert whatever price you think a reasonable risk averse person might go for. Even though you might pay a bit more isn't that better than simply helping yourself to a free lunch because the seller doesn't know any better?  Well you either see it or you don't.  In the end it's just so much stuff.

  

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Post Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 6:25 am 
 

Seems pretty simple to me.
It is unethical by society's normal standards to deceive someone into selling an item below value.
It is also idiotic for any seller to complain about the amount received for an item when the Internet provides such a gigantic resource in terms of the ability to figure out the relative value of something. Go do a google of "pharaoh daystar west".
It boils down to this: Once again we have a seller who views eBay as a personal yard sale, like most sellers do. If he gets porked by his own stupidity, so be it.


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Post Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 7:38 am 
 

islestrike wrote:
Yeah well I mention that previous auction because like this one it had the potential to come to the same conclusion - that of one person getting ahead at another person's expense. Just curious why people were so incensed previously but this one is ok. Now I know. Don't you think you are splitting hairs just a tad? So if you stick your foot out to trip someone that's bad, but if you just nudge them a little in the hopes they trip themsleves, well then hey feel free to help yourself to whatever falls out of their pockets.

Someone mentioned that when simply making a BIN request you don't necessarily know what the response will be, so it's ok. But if you are hoping to get someone's item at a steal then isn't that just as greedy as if you made that offer yourself? According to what I'm hearing I guess not. I guess when you want something for nothing (meaning someone else's value is diminished) these are the kind of hoops you have to jump through.

If you want a low price wouldn't the ethical business offer be something like "hey mr. seller, that item has a potential value of x if the right people are bidding at the right time and the condition is good. But who knows ...I'll give you half that amount and you don't have to worry." Or insert whatever price you think a reasonable risk averse person might go for. Even though you might pay a bit more isn't that better than simply helping yourself to a free lunch because the seller doesn't know any better? Well you either see it or you don't. In the end it's just so much stuff.

Once again, you are going under the assumption that the peson asking if the seller has a BIN is looking to get it for below market value. That may very well be end result, but that does not have to mean that is the intention of the asker. I can guarentee that if the repsonse from the seller was ~$7-800.00 mark, that Brette would have seriously considered that price anyway. By asking the seller simply if they have a buy it now price puts you as the exact same situation you would be in if they were selling the item in some mom & pop store in the middle of nowhere or if the had placed the BIN on there originally. There is also always a remote possibilty as well that an item slips through where only you notice it and you get it very cheaply anyway. If an item does slip through and no one else notices it, are you still going to pay the seller its true value, because ethically, according to what you are saying that you would. I can imagine that conversation: "Dear seller, I know this auction went through its full term and only sold for $50.00, but I know what the true value of the item is and it is actually worth ~$800.00, so I am just going to pay you that".  If I am understanding you correctly as to what you are saying, that if any of those 3 above cases occured, that by your ethical & moral standards, that you would always notify the seller that there item you are buying is totally undervalued and that you are going to pay them the true value of the item. Of course if that is what you are really saying then there is not much more to say becuase everyone knows that is a steaming heap of BS.


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Post Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 8:21 am 
 

Buyer and seller beware.
Sorry, but I can't side with a seller who does not know the value of what he is selling. Ignorance in this day and age is inexcusable. Come on, if someone offered $125 for four beat-up books, would that not raise a freaking red flag in ANYONE's mind? At what point do you start saying "hmmm, maybe these are worth quite a bit?". If you don't really know the value of what you are selling, the choice is simple. DON'T FREAKING SELL IT.
If you choose to sell on eBay, you do so of your own free will. No one forced the guy to sell for $125. And if he isn't smart enough to do research, too phuqing bad. He deserves what he gets.


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Post Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 8:38 am 
 

Deadlord36 wrote:Buyer and seller beware.
Sorry, but I can't side with a seller who does not know the value of what he is selling. Ignorance in this day and age is inexcusable. Come on, if someone offered $125 for four beat-up books, would that not raise a freaking red flag in ANYONE's mind? At what point do you start saying "hmmm, maybe these are worth quite a bit?". If you don't really know the value of what you are selling, the choice is simple. DON'T FREAKING SELL IT.
If you choose to sell on eBay, you do so of your own free will. No one forced the guy to sell for $125. And if he isn't smart enough to do research, too phuqing bad. He deserves what he gets.

All you moral types can wander off at this point, because this isn't a matter of right and wrong, check your alignment chart again.  

Frank:  Precisely.  Everybody's dodging the issue; I would have offered him $20, given the chance...so the other guys potentially did the seller a favor.  $125 is far too suspicious, and would have frightened most sellers off.  :twisted:

As long as you don't mislead -- and who would believe such an "expert" anyway -- you're not doing anything unethical.  Immoral, perhaps, but you were supposed to have wandered off by now.  :roll:

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Post Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 8:55 am 
 

Deadlord36 wrote: Come on, if someone offered $125 for four beat-up books, would that not raise a freaking red flag in ANYONE's mind? At what point do you start saying "hmmm, maybe these are worth quite a bit?". If you don't really know the value of what you are selling, the choice is simple. DON'T FREAKING SELL IT.


I agree completely.

Moreover, from what I've understood of this discussion, Brett has not said "Would you sell it for 125$??" (and even in this case the seller could simply answer "Are you crazy?"), he has only ask "is there any BIN?".
No implications or anything unmoral. :)

BTW I find very interesting the topic of how much ethic have to do with business ... Let me say: I think moral and economics are very different fields, completely different. It is true, indeed, that both moral and economics are related to man and mankind. May the same man be at the same time "moral" and "economic"?? :?:

Sorry, that's philosophy. :wink:
Have a nice day
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Post Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 9:00 am 
 

deimos3428 wrote:All you moral types can wander off at this point, because this isn't a matter of right and wrong, check your alignment chart again.

Frank: Precisely. Everybody's dodging the issue; I would have offered him $20, given the chance...so the other guys potentially did the seller a favor. $125 is far too suspicious, and would have frightened most sellers off. :twisted:

As long as you don't mislead -- and who would believe such an "expert" anyway -- you're not doing anything unethical. Immoral, perhaps, but you were supposed to have wandered off by now. :roll:


I have not even addressed the issue of making an offer. :wink: My whole thing was originally saying that it is somehow wrong to ask the seller if he has a BIN in the 1st place. IMO, if you flat out make an offer without any deception in it, than that is ok too, as long as it is a fair offer. My only issue with it is as Al said "Filling the sellers head with lies". As long as that is not done then I don't see the problem with it. As an example of what mean, look at the Mono Inverness auction back in May that was hidden in that lot of other items. I actually queried the seller if he had a BIN. He said no, but if I wanted to, I could make him an offer. I offered him $400.00. Apparently others had been in contact with him as well, because he mentioned as much to me, but said that my offer was by far the highest. He at that point said due to the seemingly very high interest in the auction, that he was going to let it play out until the end. He stated that he really didnt know anything about the stuff, but he actually asked me why these people seemed to be so interested in his auction. I responded with nothing but 100% honesty. I flat out told him that the item of interest in the auction was the Inverness, and that if the right people took notice that he would be very happy with the auctions result. Needless to say, the right folks did take notice and the auction went for over $1300.00. 8O I even sent a congratualtory email to seller after the auction was done. :)


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Post Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 9:12 am 
 

those last few comments, i couldnt have said it better myself.

when money is involved, there are generally few morals.

but then, if you allow a seller fair ground to set their price, i simply do not see what the problem is - you give them the room to make up their own mind - if they dont do their homework, well then thats their loss, and frankly, thats all there is to it.

with regards to all this tho, the bella PotVQ comes to mind too. look at how farcical that all got in the end! that was a seller at the other end of the spectrum. i assume that was ok to do that tho wasnt it??!!  :?

anyway.

back to parcelling ebay wins *sigh* - i need to employ a packer like tonya and charge nice big handling fees :) - on 2nd thoughts.. nah :)

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Post Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 9:22 am 
 

A simple story..

Buyer sees item.
Buyer asks if seller will sell for a set price.
Seller says yes and offers price.
Buyer accepts.

Seller happy :D  buyer happy  :D
Free market happens (economics 101)

Let's face it. There's billions of people in the world. We are an extremely small group of collectors who effectively bid the final prices up on things between  ourselves. We enjoy the items for whateverr reasons take our fancy. We set our own value on things which nearly everyone else would still struggle to understand why they should pay even cover price on 20-30ish year old books.

If a couple of boxes of the item were found tomorrow and the 'value' to our group fell cause everyone could then have one real cheap, who would/could/should be the one complaining then?

I've won some very good items using an existing buy-it-now price. I've won some other items by simply asking if they had other items and asking the seller what they wanted for the items.

I don't agree with someone specifically going out of their way to purposefully deceive someone in order to pay less for something ie presenting a dishonest case to the seller.

Which from what has been said was not the case here (refer to top of post)

Again great timing BTB on bidding what the seller thought the item was worth to them at the time.

Great honesty shown there too Brian in answering the question from the seller for the Inverness.

My 2 cents worth (unless someone knows it's worth more in which case I'll take their higher offer) :wink:

  


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Post Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 9:39 am 
 

Thanks for the interesting and civilized discussion (so far  :wink: ).

radagast wrote:BTW I find very interesting the topic of how much ethic have to do with business ... Let me say: I think moral and economics are very different fields, completely different.

This is where I totally disagree. As much as business is part of life, if you follow a basic moral code in life, that same moral code by default also applies to your business practices or else you're betraying yourself.

I would agree that the question "Do you have a BIN in mind?" is not basically wrong (unless bids were already placed), even if the question was asked with the intention of striking a bargain. I believe that there is a difference between a bargain and a rip-off. Each of us has to draw the line that defines the difference for himself. To me, when the BIN question is used for a rip-off (by my own standards), it becomes wrong.


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Post Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 10:04 am 
 

Ralf Toth wrote:
radagast wrote:BTW I find very interesting the topic of how much ethic have to do with business ... Let me say: I think moral and economics are very different fields, completely different.

This is where I totally disagree. As much as business is part of life, if you follow a basic moral code in life, that same moral code by default also applies to your business practices or else you're betraying yourself.


As a matter of fact I agree perfectly with you, Ralf!  :D  And I hope, in my life, to follow my moral code in every decision I'll take.  :)

But, from a philosopher point of view (sorry: I work in a bank now but I cannot forget my beloved studies on Duns Scotus ...), I'm asking myself: moral issue have any kind of importance in business as business?? Is there any connection between moral and economics, strictly speaking?
I think it's an interesting point!

But I think we would go too far off-topic.  8)  8)
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Post Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 10:10 am 
 

Ah, I see now I misunderstood you. Thanks for the clarification!


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Post Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 10:14 am 
 

Ralf Toth wrote:Ah, I see now I misunderstood you. Thanks for the clarification!


No problem :wink:
Thank you.

  

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Post Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 11:10 am 
 

Quite a bit of discussion on this . . . (if you read this Foul, maybe this thread needs to be split into another?)

Anyway, a couple of points I don't think anyone touched on:


1) How much is that Pharaoh worth anyway? Keep in mind, it was poorly listed with a small pic. It looks Okay from what we can see, but by the seller's own admission, it is in FAIR TO GOOD condition. Let's say it really is in Fair and has water damage, extensive writing or maybe several torn or (gasp!) missing pages.  What then? Maybe $125 isn't such a great deal after all. Sure, maybe it would still sell for $250-300, but the assumption that it would sell at $800+ is based on it being high grade.


2) I think everyone realizes that Brett just asked "Do you have a buy it now" and I stumbled upon a good deal, but keep in mind that the seller revised this based on a question (maybe a few questions?). They probably thought they were asking for a price above it's value - they didn't even conceive that it could be worth quite a bit more than $125. This is important in understanding the inherent "grey" area of ethics. Were they being unethical putting in a BIN for more than they thought it was worth?

3) Conversely, what if a collector really believed Pharaoh to be an overpriced item? If someone truly felt that a Near Mint Pharaoh was only worth $300, would it be unethical to ask for a BIN at that price? Should that collector always be denied the item because they are unwilling to bid against a handful of others who set the value much higher?


Just some more things to think about . . .  :D


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Post Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 12:28 pm 
 

You're right, Breach. I personally think ST1 is worth $50. I'll offer that much next time one comes up.
To be honest, this thread should die. It has been discussed in the past, and as is typical there are opinions from every conceivable point of view.


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Post Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 12:33 pm 
 

Deadlord36 wrote:You're right, Breach. I personally think ST1 is worth $50. I'll offer that much next time one comes up.
To be honest, this thread should die. It has been discussed in the past, and as is typical there are opinions from every conceivable point of view.


yeah i agree. can we go back to fun finds now? this can clearly be discussed elsewhere, IF it needs to be.

Al



  

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Post Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 5:13 pm 
 

Oh, and Breach, in the future you might want to think twice before posting something like that in Fun Finds until it is in hand. I know from experience that some people wouldn't think twice about offering the seller three times what the auction went for if the seller "wanted to make a lot more". $250 extra vs. a single negative is hard to argue with for a lot of sellers.


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Post Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 5:36 pm 
 

Deadlord36 wrote:Oh, and Breach, in the future you might want to think twice before posting something like that in Fun Finds until it is in hand. I know from experience that some people wouldn't think twice about offering the seller three times what the auction went for if the seller "wanted to make a lot more". $250 extra vs. a single negative is hard to argue with for a lot of sellers.


Yes, I think about that as well, it would be a lot safer if you had it in your hand first;)

Brette:)

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Post Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 5:55 pm 
 

Soooo........would it be so wrong for the seller to say phuck it and sell it to someone else who offered twice its worth in a private sale aside from his obligation to ebay?

While we are at it why not just say screw ebay. Rules..smules! If the seller is sucker enough to sell it without checking value somewhere....why not just be an ass and disregard that obligation?

Of course, I don't much believe all that but if said seller isn't entitled to market value if he is coerced into a low ball sale then why should anyone be held to any standards at all?


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