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Post Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 4:37 pm 
 

i have been on the receiving end of instances like this, where ppl have made me offers for something, which was way below its value. this relates to not only RPG stuff, but other things too. one of my instances was 2 boxes of very old comics that i had. i needed space and decided to just offload them - i stuck an advert in the local paper and someone came to buy em for £25. it wasnt until a few weeks later when i was mentioning it to someone, who nearly collapsed when i told them what was actually in the box. the value of what was there, was close to £1500-2000, but in the end, that was my laziness for not looking into things first before selling them.

if youre going to create a debate about this particular instance, you HAVE to debate it relating to life generally too, as it happens all the time, in relation to everything you could probably imagine.

it is normal human nature, for an individual to try and acquire something for less than its value or what its worth.

if you are selling an item, the decision is always down to you what you want to do with it.

the seller could have said no i dont want to sell it for $125, but in the end, its still a lot of money and if he was happy with that, then well thats his/her choice.

if i was in the position of a buyer, i would have no problem at all asking someone if they wanted to BIN an item, whether its an auction of not. they can say no its an auction and i will let it run after all. its their choice.
if i was asking, i would leave it to them to choose how much they wanted to BIN for. this way, i have not taken advantage of their ignorance or whatever - they have chosen for themselves.

sorry but this is getting silly. you go into any store selling computers anywhere in the world. you walk in and a salesman will offer to assist. if you dont know what youre talking about and say "i want a computer", you cant honestly tell me, he wont try and sell you one of their premium items? cmon now, is that not the same thing? i think it is dont you?

what i dont agree with, is trying to fill someones head with lies to get your BIN at a low price. thats just not british.

Al


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Post Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 4:46 pm 
 

<bunch of wonderful commentary snipped>
killjoy32 wrote:what i dont agree with, is trying to fill someones head with lies to get your BIN at a low price. thats just not british.

Is that a statement of national pride or an obscure usage of "british" that I'm not familiar with?  :)

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Post Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 4:50 pm 
 

deimos3428 wrote:<bunch of wonderful commentary snipped>
killjoy32 wrote:what i dont agree with, is trying to fill someones head with lies to get your BIN at a low price. thats just not british.

Is that a statement of national pride or an obscure usage of "british" that I'm not familiar with? :)


hehehe its an englishman thing deim :)

prb some outdated thing from millions of years ago that i am the only one that takes any notice of :)

Al


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Post Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 5:33 pm 
 

1995 called and wants it's Pharoah valuation back.

:lol:

OK, so no one actually said that but it is what I hearing in my head while trying to figure out waht is going on here.

No offense to Brette. He is has a great collection with a deep knowledge of all kinds of collectible items. I respect this greatly. I would prefer to give him the benefit of the doubt and hear from him what really happened. Maybe he wrote the seller asking how much he wanted to end the auction early and let the seller pick his price.


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Post Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 5:40 pm 
 

I think the 'positive action' is inspiring the seller to engage in a BIN, when they wouldn't have normally, had not a 'unscrupulous' buyer encouraged them to do so. The buyer is unscrupulous if they knew full well the market value of the item, and played off the seller's ignorance in order to massively undervalue the cost of said item. If the seller never intended to institute a BIN, then I think the onous falls on the buyer for essentially ripping off the seller, and by extension, other buyers as well, since they won't be able to bid thanks to the BIN. Conversely, if the seller overpriced the item, who would buy it? Unless the buyer was naive, then no-one, so that problem solves itself. The seller denies themselves a sale, and no one is ripped off, AND the seller can always repost at a lowered sale price, with the knowledge that their first attempt was probably too aggressive. Ah well, that's my $.02 anywho.

Good topic by the way. :)

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Post Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 6:00 pm 
 

I still fail to see how the said conversation below is unscrupulous and/or immoral and is somehow adversly affecting the auction:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Potential Buyer: " Dear Seller, do you happen to have a buy it now price in mind?"

Seller: "Well, I did not initally have one, however if you are interested, I will sell it to you for $125.00"

Potential Buyer: "OK, that sounds good to me, I will take it"

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Using the above example I am not sure how that can be construed anything more than it is right there in front of you. You may very well think that is is because of the item involved, but I fail to see it.  I fail to see it because of this factor: Apply that exact same conversation to an auction for a B2-Keep on the Borderlands. Is the buyer still being unscupulous/immoral? And to play devil's advocate even further, lets say that same exact conversation takes place on an R1-To the Aid of Falx. Still Unscrupulous/Immoral? Can't be.

With all of that being said, I was not privy to the conversation(s) that took place the other night, so I can't say for sure that is what happened. My only point in the matter is that act of simply asking the seller if he/she has a Buy It Now price in mind is not immoral/unscrupulous/shady or whatever else you want to call it. It is simply a question meant to ascertain the possibility of the buying something right away. Ebay offers it as a feature and it is a legitimate tool for sellers to use. You(in general, not anyone specifically :) ) need to ask yourself if this conversation would be taking place if the BIN was set at $1000.00 and Brette ended up taking it at that price and it didnt fall into BTB's lap. If your answer is "No" than its not about morality at all, it is about being pissed because someone else got a good deal that you(in general again) didn't get.


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Post Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 6:02 pm 
 

The question I asked the buyer was "Is there a BIN for this item?" or words to such effect. I'll happly pay at market price (and sometime above on large lots) for things I want, and if the seller came back with a higher one I would of prob taken that as well. Al's quote below pretty much sums it up...

killjoy32 wrote:i have been on the receiving end of instances like this, where ppl have made me offers for something, which was way below its value. this relates to not only RPG stuff, but other things too. one of my instances was 2 boxes of very old comics that i had. i needed space and decided to just offload them - i stuck an advert in the local paper and someone came to buy em for £25. it wasnt until a few weeks later when i was mentioning it to someone, who nearly collapsed when i told them what was actually in the box. the value of what was there, was close to £1500-2000, but in the end, that was my laziness for not looking into things first before selling them.


At the time he was glad to get what he got for them and got rid of them. The people on here are collectors, some of us serious collectors that have outlaid some sesious money. Our field of knowledge is very specific, you and I may go its worth $x but to someone else it is just a couple of pieces of paper. I sometime watch antique shows and someone will be collecting blown glass or some such and they will bring out a small bowl or vase and say its worth $20,000! If i had it i'd prob toss the thing in the bin, glass bowl.. dust collector.. crap.. in the bin... With the wonders of the internet it pretty easy to plug a couple of words into google and get a good answer. I often think of what teasures I walk past in op shops or markets, I have no expertise in certain areas so I have no idea what to look for. I won't offer a rip off price to a seller on an item I know is a lot more, if its worth $500 I'll offer $500 not $50. however there are people out there that do, esp resellers, after all they have to make a profit (if you do a search on RPGS or R series you can see what some of these people are offering.. wayyyyyyy below the market) on the flip side if they had a creep BIN of $2500 we'd all be bitching that he is trying to rip people off etc, once again I don't have much of a problem with this, a little bit or research will tell you this is overprised, if only you take the time to do some... I have someone that is doing that to me now offering me a couple of mags at about 3 times the market price, now weather he is doing that on purpose or not, to him they may be worth that, i know what I can pick them up for so the chances of him selling them to me are pretty slim;)

Brette:)

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Post Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 6:18 pm 
 

whew. That was a tension breaker. Thanks Brette :D

But it is an interesting topic. I happen to agree with a lot of what Yama Arashi is saying......and with what BClarkie is saying. Very solid points. I am certainly not an authority on ethics to take a firm position but I watch everyone's opinions with great interest.

In the end we all have gut feelings on what is/was/might be right. Personally, I would much prefer to see an auction go the full distance as I feel $125 just isn't enough for that item. At once, i feel equally good for the person who won it as well as bad for the seller that shed it.


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Post Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 6:51 pm 
 

Last point here (at least for now :) ) for those of you who believe that simply asking the seller: "Do you have a Buy It Now price in mind?" is positive action that adversly affected both this auction and the seller. If you were currently in BTB's position having this wonderful item fall into your lap for much less than what its anticipated value would be, and all of this due to someone else asking the above mentioned immoral/unscrupulous/shady question, would you in fact refuse to take the item and insist on the seller keeping it and setting it up for auction again? I assuming that based on your position(s) in this matter that you would in fact do it. Am I correct in assuming this?


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Post Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 6:58 pm 
 

Yama-Arashi wrote:
I've read plenty of outrage on this board about high prices set by resellers, with accusations that such an action was designed to fleece the unwary. Trying to get a seller to put a BIN on an auction so that you can walk away with a steal is equally distasteful.


Well Yama-Ara you've said what I've always thought but never bothered to post ...it's one set of rules for this little club and another set for everyone else.  Just check out the moral indignation when someone offered this seller 30 pounds for their rare item:

about2608-0-asc-400.html

Of course had it been a "member" that actually managed to pull this off I'm sure there would have been some high fives as it was posted on the recent fun finds thread.  I've also read posts of indignation from "members" who object to bookstore owners looking up prices for vintage D&D items when considering offers made to them.  You are right to point out this flip flopping cause there is a lot of it here.  

Ralf Toth ...that seller DID get ripped off, you aren't just imagining it.  They are really out some money.   When so much is made on this site about valuations what else can one think?

  

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Post Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 7:04 pm 
 

What Brette did was not unethical at all, he simply put a bid on an item and won it, lucky bastard :wink:

Now if you told the guy it was worth $125.00 knowing full well it was worth 5 or 6 times more and then gave him the money; that is very unethical and probably illegal.

I remember a case here in Canada where an art dealer bought a painting from an old gal that was worth thousands, he paid peanuts.  Eventually the truth came out and the dealer had to give her full market value for the item and pay a fine.

You can not knowingly rip somebody off if you are an expert and the person is a layman.  Like I said it is probably illegal. :?

Later

J


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Post Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 7:08 pm 
 

islestrike wrote:
Yama-Arashi wrote:
I've read plenty of outrage on this board about high prices set by resellers, with accusations that such an action was designed to fleece the unwary. Trying to get a seller to put a BIN on an auction so that you can walk away with a steal is equally distasteful.


Well Yama-Ara you've said what I've always thought but never bothered to post ...it's one set of rules for this little club and another set for everyone else. Just check out the moral indignation when someone offered this seller 30 pounds for their rare item:

about2608-0-asc-400.html

Of course had it been a "member" that actually managed to pull this off I'm sure there would have been some high fives as it was posted on the recent fun finds thread. I've also read posts of indignation from "members" who object to bookstore owners looking up prices for vintage D&D items when considering offers made to them. You are right to point out this flip flopping cause there is a lot of it here.

Ralf Toth ...that seller DID get ripped off, you aren't just imagining it. They are really out some money. When so much is made on this site about valuations what else can one think?


What are you a George Bush fan or something? 8O Flip flopping? 8O Let me guess you were the one who offered the 30 pounds....

Above and beyond that, have you read anything anyone has written here besides what you really wanted to hear? Just about everyone here has already posted that "THEY DO NOT THINK ITS RIGHT TO TRY AND DECIEVE THE SELLER :!: " Offering the seller 30 pounds would be deception, but simply asking the seller if they have a Buy it Now price is not. There is a difference. :idea:


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Post Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 7:46 pm 
 

I should like to mention that I have personally done this 'contact the buyer about BIN' about 3 times previously with some success. I started doing it because everyone else around these boards were engaged in it. If you can't beat em...join em?

The last time I did it I actually overpaid for an item that has never really been seen on open auction before. I only new that I had overpaid months and years later as several more like items sold for Half of the amount, or close to that amount, and only a twice more than that amount.

Anyhow, someone contacted the seller and told him he shouldn't have ended the item early as they likely were underpaid. Boy did I get chewed out by the seller and I felt bad about it......what if I did actually underpay? I didn't really feel like it at the time.

But in the end I decided it was best to just leave this stuff alone and fight it out at the end of the auction. Nobody can be upset under these circumstances other than the guy who really pined to get the item on the cheap.
If you dont want the auction to end early you have to write the seller and tell them you intend to bid....or place an early bid at the very least to lock in this intention.


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Post Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 7:56 pm 
 

I wish it was me it was that won it :evil: LOL.. I hate offering $$, what someone is willing to sell something for is up to them, if its far and I think its worth I'll buy it. It also works in reverse, a guy once had a mag I wanted and wound't sell it to me, he just had to auction it on ebay... he opened the bidding for like $5, I bid over $100, but I was the only one that bid, so I sent him my $5.. I can still remember his email to me saying he thought that I was pleased with the price... and I have to agree the difference is getting a deal and ripping someone off...

Brette:)


Blackmoor wrote:What Brette did was not unethical at all, he simply put a bid on an item and won it, lucky bastard :wink:

Now if you told the guy it was worth $125.00 knowing full well it was worth 5 or 6 times more and then gave him the money; that is very unethical and probably illegal.

I remember a case here in Canada where an art dealer bought a painting from an old gal that was worth thousands, he paid peanuts. Eventually the truth came out and the dealer had to give her full market value for the item and pay a fine.

You can not knowingly rip somebody off if you are an expert and the person is a layman. Like I said it is probably illegal. :?

Later

J

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Post Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 8:12 pm 
 

I'm a bit undecided about the rights and wrongs of this - I would say though that as soon as someone asked about a BIN price about an item I was selling then alarm bells would ring for me, followed by a little research. If the seller cannot be bothered to do the research then that's his lookout.

As an aside one question I would ask  is - where on earth did he get this from?! This is a serious bit of kit that doesn't really tie in with the rest of the stuff he is selling (lots of the standard modules and mags from the mid 80's - the sort that many archetypal teenage gamers would have had, and that many 30 somethings still have in their closet to this day).
(And will anyone admit to contacting him to see if he has any other gems hidden away!?) :D


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Post Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 11:17 pm 
 

bclarkie wrote:
What are you a George Bush fan or something? 8O Flip flopping? 8O Let me guess you were the one who offered the 30 pounds....



Yeah well I mention that previous auction because like this one it had the potential to come to the same conclusion - that of one person getting ahead at another person's expense.  Just curious why people were so incensed previously but this one is ok.  Now I know.  Don't you think you are splitting hairs just a tad?  So if you stick your foot out to trip someone that's bad, but if you just nudge them a little in the hopes they trip themsleves, well then hey feel free to help yourself to whatever falls out of their pockets.

Someone mentioned that when simply making a BIN request you don't necessarily know what the response will be, so it's ok.  But if you are hoping to get someone's item at a steal then isn't that just as greedy as if you made that offer yourself?  According to what I'm hearing I guess not.  I guess when you want something for nothing (meaning someone else's value is diminished) these are the kind of hoops you have to jump through.

If you want a low price wouldn't the ethical business offer be something like "hey mr. seller, that item has a potential value of x if the right people are bidding at the right time and the condition is good.  But who knows ...I'll give you half that amount and you don't have to worry." Or insert whatever price you think a reasonable risk averse person might go for. Even though you might pay a bit more isn't that better than simply helping yourself to a free lunch because the seller doesn't know any better?  Well you either see it or you don't.  In the end it's just so much stuff.

  

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Post Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 6:25 am 
 

Seems pretty simple to me.
It is unethical by society's normal standards to deceive someone into selling an item below value.
It is also idiotic for any seller to complain about the amount received for an item when the Internet provides such a gigantic resource in terms of the ability to figure out the relative value of something. Go do a google of "pharaoh daystar west".
It boils down to this: Once again we have a seller who views eBay as a personal yard sale, like most sellers do. If he gets porked by his own stupidity, so be it.


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Post Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 7:38 am 
 

islestrike wrote:
Yeah well I mention that previous auction because like this one it had the potential to come to the same conclusion - that of one person getting ahead at another person's expense. Just curious why people were so incensed previously but this one is ok. Now I know. Don't you think you are splitting hairs just a tad? So if you stick your foot out to trip someone that's bad, but if you just nudge them a little in the hopes they trip themsleves, well then hey feel free to help yourself to whatever falls out of their pockets.

Someone mentioned that when simply making a BIN request you don't necessarily know what the response will be, so it's ok. But if you are hoping to get someone's item at a steal then isn't that just as greedy as if you made that offer yourself? According to what I'm hearing I guess not. I guess when you want something for nothing (meaning someone else's value is diminished) these are the kind of hoops you have to jump through.

If you want a low price wouldn't the ethical business offer be something like "hey mr. seller, that item has a potential value of x if the right people are bidding at the right time and the condition is good. But who knows ...I'll give you half that amount and you don't have to worry." Or insert whatever price you think a reasonable risk averse person might go for. Even though you might pay a bit more isn't that better than simply helping yourself to a free lunch because the seller doesn't know any better? Well you either see it or you don't. In the end it's just so much stuff.

Once again, you are going under the assumption that the peson asking if the seller has a BIN is looking to get it for below market value. That may very well be end result, but that does not have to mean that is the intention of the asker. I can guarentee that if the repsonse from the seller was ~$7-800.00 mark, that Brette would have seriously considered that price anyway. By asking the seller simply if they have a buy it now price puts you as the exact same situation you would be in if they were selling the item in some mom & pop store in the middle of nowhere or if the had placed the BIN on there originally. There is also always a remote possibilty as well that an item slips through where only you notice it and you get it very cheaply anyway. If an item does slip through and no one else notices it, are you still going to pay the seller its true value, because ethically, according to what you are saying that you would. I can imagine that conversation: "Dear seller, I know this auction went through its full term and only sold for $50.00, but I know what the true value of the item is and it is actually worth ~$800.00, so I am just going to pay you that".  If I am understanding you correctly as to what you are saying, that if any of those 3 above cases occured, that by your ethical & moral standards, that you would always notify the seller that there item you are buying is totally undervalued and that you are going to pay them the true value of the item. Of course if that is what you are really saying then there is not much more to say becuase everyone knows that is a steaming heap of BS.


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