Not-so-Recent Fun Finds
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Post Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 4:18 pm 
 

Deadlord36 wrote:Christ, guys, can't you be happy that he won it............


Umm, yes.  I am quite happy that he was able to get that.  I already congratulated him on it. :?


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Post Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 4:38 pm 
 

It could not have happened to a more deserving guy! Congrats Paul!!!

John


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Post Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 4:53 pm 
 

Dude that was me that negioated that dam it... well one of three by his post anyway... s$%$#^%$#6%^$%#

Brette:(


beyondthebreach wrote:
bclarkie wrote:
Damn it, that thing sat out there without a bid for almost 12 hours. 8O How long did it take to negotiate that one. :wink: Nice Win though :D


Lest ye think ill of me . . .

No negotiating . . . I kept staring at it thinking do I want to even send a "question" to the seller (which I never do). So, after a few minutes I simply placed a bid of $125 (again, I usually never place bids early).

I click "place bid" and ebay says my bid is "at or above the Buy it Now price.

What? 8O I went back and checked out the description . . . it was edited and a BIN added while I was looking at it. If I had bid 1 penny less, the bid would have registered and I would have never realized it!

Nice!



:D

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Post Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 5:30 pm 
 

Could someone please translate Brette's post for me??  :D


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Post Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 6:04 pm 
 

In case anyone is interested in some old Raistlin Ral Partha Dragonlance minis:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...AMESE%3AIT&rd=1

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...AMESE%3AIT&rd=1

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...AMESE%3AIT&rd=1

  

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Post Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 7:25 pm 
 



cant access them pages...


Are we nearly there yet?

  


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Post Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 1:14 am 
 

Absolutely fantastic win BTB. :D  Supremely lucky with the timing of your bid. Unfortunate there Brette. Here's hoping for another chance at a good one for you next time.....

  

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Post Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 1:18 am 
 

what can I say... on another totally unrelated subject can anyone point me were you can hire assasins on the net??

AdderMcOne wrote:Absolutely fantastic win BTB. :D Supremely lucky with the timing of your bid. Unfortunate there Brette. Here's hoping for another chance at a good one for you next time.....

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Post Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 7:43 am 
 

killjoy32 wrote:


cant access them pages...

D'oh Bart! Sorry, my bad. Looks like the links got truncated for some reason. Let's try that again...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... %3AIT&rd=1

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... %3AIT&rd=1

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... %3AIT&rd=1

  


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Post Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 11:00 am 
 

beasterbrook wrote:what can I say... on another totally unrelated subject can anyone point me were you can hire assasins on the net??

AdderMcOne wrote:Absolutely fantastic win BTB. :D Supremely lucky with the timing of your bid. Unfortunate there Brette. Here's hoping for another chance at a good one for you next time.....


Personally, I wouldn't be too proud about talking anyone into selling a collector's item worth $750+ for $125. I'd be happy to BIN it or win it if it went as a normal auction without getting noticed by others who had the chance to find it. But talking an unknowing seller into this kind of deal seems greedy to me. Yes, the seller should have done some basic research. But as he obviously didn't, does that give anyone the right to rip him off the way he actually got ripped off? Yes, we live in a bad world, I know. Doesn't that fact oblige us to follow some simple ethical guidelines in collecting? How morally correct is the question "Is there a BIN for this item?" anyway?

I know many of you will disagree with me. I'm ready to get flamed for this, but I don't care. If I am not the only one who thinks this way, it would be nice to see some basic discussion about this issue.


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Post Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 11:32 am 
 

Ralf Toth wrote:
beasterbrook wrote:what can I say... on another totally unrelated subject can anyone point me were you can hire assasins on the net??



Personally, I wouldn't be too proud about talking anyone into selling a collector's item worth $750+ for $125. I'd be happy to BIN it or win it if it went as a normal auction without getting noticed by others who had the chance to find it. But talking an unknowing seller into this kind of deal seems greedy to me. Yes, the seller should have done some basic research. But as he obviously didn't, does that give anyone the right to rip him off the way he actually got ripped off? Yes, we live in a bad world, I know. Doesn't that fact oblige us to follow some simple ethical guidelines in collecting? How morally correct is the question "Is there a BIN for this item?" anyway?

I know many of you will disagree with me. I'm ready to get flamed for this, but I don't care. If I am not the only one who thinks this way, it would be nice to see some basic discussion about this issue.


I agree it's worth a discussion, but am not going to criticize anyone for asking for BINs that are below the Acaeum-estimated values, whether they're aware of those values or not.  And of course, we don't know if that's what happened in this case.  Maybe a BIN was requested, and the seller set the amount, which happens often.  Then the question becomes whether the buyer is morally compelled to inform the seller that the BIN is below what the item is worth.  I don't think so, but am open-minded, and am willing to change my views if a convincing argument is presented.

To be balanced, another aspect of this issue that should be discussed is whether the seller should reduce an unsolicited offer that is obviously far above an item's worth.  I've received an excessive offer or two (and have made more than one myself), but haven't taken advantage of them.

  


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Post Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 11:44 am 
 

Ralf Toth wrote:
beasterbrook wrote:what can I say... on another totally unrelated subject can anyone point me were you can hire assasins on the net??



Personally, I wouldn't be too proud about talking anyone into selling a collector's item worth $750+ for $125. I'd be happy to BIN it or win it if it went as a normal auction without getting noticed by others who had the chance to find it. But talking an unknowing seller into this kind of deal seems greedy to me. Yes, the seller should have done some basic research. But as he obviously didn't, does that give anyone the right to rip him off the way he actually got ripped off? Yes, we live in a bad world, I know. Doesn't that fact oblige us to follow some simple ethical guidelines in collecting? How morally correct is the question "Is there a BIN for this item?" anyway?

I know many of you will disagree with me. I'm ready to get flamed for this, but I don't care. If I am not the only one who thinks this way, it would be nice to see some basic discussion about this issue.


Personally, I dont have a problem with simply asking if the seller has a BIN. To me, it is really how you go about doing it. What is the difference if the seller already has one on the auction immediately or if he/she puts one on there later on with you asking without any prompting to the amount. Realistically, like what happened with BTB, no one is going to say "Gee, there is a Daystar West Pharoah on Ebay with a $125 BIN, I think I better email the seller and tell him that his BIN is way to low and I will happily pay for what the correct amount is." It is just not going to happen.  

Now with that being said, I am totally and 100% against lying to the seller in order to get them to put a BIN on there or to fashion the amount of the BIN through false information. Saying things to the seller like "This item is only worth $x.xx amount even though you know for a fact that it is really worth $x.xx plus $500.00, or like jonb/etc/tge did last year with his BS story on the H series modules, how he was looking for these for sooooooo long and that this was going to be a gift for his kid and how he would be so appreiative for this favor. :roll: Granted, it is virtually impossible to tell what really occurs in each case because that is really between whomever asks the question and the seller themselves as to what the truth is. But IMO, as long as its done the right way, I really dont have any problem with it. Just my $.02. :)


"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." -Neitzche

  


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Post Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 2:52 pm 
 

Ralf Toth wrote:Personally, I wouldn't be too proud about talking anyone into selling a collector's item worth $750+ for $125.
<snip>
I know many of you will disagree with me. I'm ready to get flamed for this, but I don't care. If I am not the only one who thinks this way, it would be nice to see some basic discussion about this issue.

First off, nobody should "flame" you, even if they don't agree.  You're entitled to your rather noble opinion, Ralf. ;)

My take on this is simply that the seller agreed to the price by setting a BIN.  Nobody forced them to do that, and if they were concerned about getting fair market value, they could/should have done a couple of quick google searches.  They're probably happy to have $125 USD in the pocket instead of a couple sheets of paper.

A seller is perfectly capable of telling someone to go to hell if they don't agree with any pricing suggestions they might make.  It works both ways, too -- some sellers think an OCE is "worth" $300+.  (If they can actually get that, more power to them.)

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Post Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 2:57 pm 
 

bclarkie wrote:What is the difference if the seller already has one [BIN] on the auction immediately or if he/she puts one on there later on with you asking without any prompting to the amount.


All the difference in the world.  There was no BIN before you took a positive action to induce one.  If you take a positive action to induce another to act in a fashion that works to their detriment, then yes, you are culpable for the outcome of that action.  

I begrudge no one who finds an item at below its market value in a fixed price environment (a used bookstore, for example).  That's what economists call market noise (or sometimes price dispersion, depending on the theory to which you ascribe.)  The market takes care of that on its own.  But I think we can all agree that had the seller been allowed to continue in his original intent, i.e. to allow the item to be sold in auction,  the item would have commanded a vastly greater price.  So the question is not whether or not the seller knew the value of his item (and priced it incorrectly), but whether he was induced into taking an action to his own detriment.

What bothers me about this discussion is that some people here seem to have forgotten that one of the things that an auction does is allow the market to set prices for people who may not know the value of the item they are selling.  That's what auctions have always done; set a market price for an item where the price is untested or unknown.  This is what an e-Bay auction does as well.  When you take a positive action to interfere with that process, especially when you have the sole intention of seeing if you can prevent a market price from being set, then you engaging in a morally questionable act.  I'm sorry, but any claim that the victim of such an act "didn't do his homework" or was "stupid" is not a defence, either.

I've read plenty of outrage on this board about high prices set by resellers, with accusations that such an action was designed to fleece the unwary.  Trying to get a seller to put a BIN on an auction so that you can walk away with a steal is equally distasteful.


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Post Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 3:04 pm 
 

Yama-Arashi wrote:
bclarkie wrote:What is the difference if the seller already has one [BIN] on the auction immediately or if he/she puts one on there later on with you asking without any prompting to the amount.


All the difference in the world. There was no BIN before you took a positive action to induce one. If you take a positive action to induce another to act in a fashion that works to their detriment, then yes, you are culpable for the outcome of that action.


So, on the same hand if I was the one involved in this particular auction(which I wasn't), and I asked the seller if he/she had a BIN, and the seller said sure, $5000.00. Somehow that is a negative and to the sellers detriment? :? Just like deimos said as well, that seller could have also told the said parties who asked, "No" or "Kiss my ass" for that matter. Who is to say for the sellers sake that he wasn't planning on putting on a BIN of $50 and he just hadn't gotten to it yet, but due to the multiple emails he/she had received in regards to it he decided, "Shit this item is pretty hot stuff, I am going to jack up the BIN to $125".


"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." -Neitzche

  


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Post Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 3:18 pm 
 

Yama-Arashi wrote:
bclarkie wrote:What is the difference if the seller already has one [BIN] on the auction immediately or if he/she puts one on there later on with you asking without any prompting to the amount.


All the difference in the world. There was no BIN before you took a positive action to induce one. If you take a positive action to induce another to act in a fashion that works to their detriment, then yes, you are culpable for the outcome of that action.


Additionally, I dont think that you claim moral high ground in one instance and not the other. Fact is if you are in a store and find this same item for the same amount, fulling knowing its true worth, than you are bound by the same moral grounds to tell the store owner of its true worth, you can't have it both ways.

There of course is another thing to consider. Ever heard of the word "Haggling"? Ever buy a used/new car and tried to talk the salesman down from their asking price? Does trying to pay less make you immoral? Not necessarily unless you lie to do it.


"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." -Neitzche

  


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Post Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 4:20 pm 
 

bclarkie wrote:Additionally, I dont think that you claim moral high ground in one instance and not the other. Fact is if you are in a store and find this same item for the same amount, fulling knowing its true worth, than you are bound by the same moral grounds to tell the store owner of its true worth, you can't have it both ways.


First, "you" in this instance is not you, Bclarkie.  If you need to bring your blood pressure down, re-read my post and replace "you" with "one."  I'm siding with Ralf, not naming names.  In fact, I'm very carefully not reading back on this to find out exactly who is copping to what.  I'm not the e-Bay policeman.

Second.  Read my post with attention, please.  The issue revolves around the concept of the responsibility of taking positive action.  When you take positive action to bring about a result, especially one that harms another, you are in the realm of moral culpability.  If you come upon a fixd-price deal entirely by chance (as the purchaser did, in the instance at hand) no moral culpability attaches.   When someone is offering something for sale, they set a price they are willing to accept.  If they get the price wrong, they lose out, either through lost profit (price too low) or lost sales (price too high).  If buyer disagrees on price, and seller is amenable to discussion, price negotiations can ensue.  This is called "doing business," and yes, I'm quite familiar with the concept, thank you.  

But e-bay isn't a haggling environment.  It's an auction.  Please re-read my post on what an auction is and what it is designed to do.  This wasn't a flea market or a used-car lot.  When you attempt to defeat the purpose of the auction, especially when you are doing so in order to benefit yourself to the detriment of another, yes, I'm willing to state that it's morally questionable.  What is shilling, for example?  An attempt to defeat the effort of the auction to set a fair market value for an item by artificially inflating the price.  Under your argument shilling is not a problem because after all, the victim can drop out of the bidding at any time.  I don't think we want to stand by that interpretation of fairness.

Finally, the discussion was never that you have an obligation to pay a high price for an item, or even a "fair" price.  I'm an economist, I don't believe in such a thing as a "fair" price to begin with -- the market clears itself.  The discussion at hand is whether you can walk away with a clean conscience if you have attempted to manipulate an auction to the detriment of another for your own benefit.   I'm with Ralf on that; I think it's a question worth thinking about.


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Post Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 4:35 pm 
 

Yama-Arashi wrote:
bclarkie wrote:Additionally, I dont think that you claim moral high ground in one instance and not the other. Fact is if you are in a store and find this same item for the same amount, fulling knowing its true worth, than you are bound by the same moral grounds to tell the store owner of its true worth, you can't have it both ways.


Second. Read my post with attention, please. The issue revolves around the concept of the responsibility of taking positive action. When you take positive action to bring about a result, especially one that harms another, you are in the realm of moral culpability. If you come upon a fixd-price deal entirely by chance (as the purchaser did, in the instance at hand) no moral culpability attaches. When someone is offering something for sale, they set a price they are willing to accept. If they get the price wrong, they lose out, either through lost profit (price too low) or lost sales (price too high). If buyer disagrees on price, and seller is amenable to discussion, price negotiations can ensue. This is called "doing business," and yes, I'm quite familiar with the concept, thank you.


Using your term "positive action", how is simply asking if the seller has a buy it now price considered to be anything other than what it is. You are going on the assumption the seller is going to respond to their own detriment. When asked the "Do you have a Buy It Now" question the seller has many options: 1) Could be simply "No", 2) Could be "Yes" with a value lower than what market value is, 3) Could be "Yes" with a value that is very close to or at market value, & 4) Could be "Yes" with a figure that is far above market value. By not introducing a figure into the discussion you are not positvely affecting anything. Your hope when asking the question is that the seller will put a figure that is favorable to you, but in no way is your question affecting his decision.  As I tried to point out in my first reponse, someone asking this question could just as easily cause the seller to respond in a fashion that is more favorable to himself as it is to the questioner.  We can not assume that the seller will always respond in a fashion that is detrimental to himself. What if in this circumstance the seller responded with a figure of $900.00 which would be a pretty fair value or what if he offered a value of $10,000.00?


"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." -Neitzche

  
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