kevin mayle wrote:I had been too afraid to check out this thread before, because it was so extremely long, and I didn't have an interest in the product, but I just read through it and found striking similarities to another "RPG Founding Father's" company's business practices.
Dave Arneson's Zeitgeist Games:
Not paying artists, writers, editors.
Not shipping product, including contributor copies.
Not responding to e-mails or phone calls.
Endless excuses of problems with the printer, death in the family, etc.
Stating that they all shipped and the USPS must have lost them.
Taking money for preorders and never delivering product.
A secondary publisher popping up with the stock to re-sell.
One man company working out of the proverbial garage.
It's not Dave Arneson though. He only lends his name and some saved notes from the 70's to be used to develope the products. They have been created from that by freelance talent (and it would seem by the lack of payment for the work, that it's voluntary). Then the entire business is run (or should I say mis-run) by Dustin Clingman.
Sure there have been exceptions:
Some contributor's have been paid. Some product has surfaced, albeit much, much later.
Sorry for this not being about PPP or it's products, but the thread was an eye opener to me as how this problem is more widespread than I had thought.
I was a contributor to several books for Zeitgeist Games Blackmoor line. That actually led to me being contacted to contribute work for RJK's products for PPP. After reading this thread I am very glad those plans fell through. It most certainly would have soured me from continuing in the freelance market.

Kevin,

Didn't you do the cover to Temple of the Frog? It is insane that they haven't paid you yet. First Rob, now Dave? What heroes are left?

I also deal in intellectual property in my work.
I also own my own business.
I Get paid upon delivery, or no delivery is made.
It is in my contracts, which all of my clients either sign, or go elsewhere.



Get your rewards by making plans to do so yourself and never rely on others to help you make it in life.
It seems all too obvious to me that they are too busy spending the money that they gained from YOUR hard work to care about how you will feed your kids.

FAR Too many people expect the government to save them from themselves.
You have been trained to rely on nanny gubment by the liberal press and the liberal governments in the US and other countries as well.

"Let us take care of you, send us all your money and allow us to decide how it shall be divied out."

Sound familiar?
Get over it and protect yourself.

sauromatian wrote:
You're absolutely right, I should travel cross-country with a trunk full of guns every time there's an issue over payment, although I don't see how the resulting life in prison would free me from government. Perhaps the appeal is that my son would then be able to tell the other kids at the orphanage that his daddy don't take no guff.

Typical knee jerk liberal reaction to common sense advice.

No you should get your money BEFORE delivery.
I mentioned NOTHING about guns or retaliation, or prison.

please re-read my post.

Aneoth,

I happen to agree with most of your sentiments.  However, I wish you could make your points without calling up the divisive labels such as "liberal".  It leads to exactly what sauromatian responded with.  So the good points you made are lost.  And he responded with exactly what you really wanted, which is a flame war.


Martin

Badmike wrote:I have only sent items without upfront payment maybe twice in 15 years. Both times I got Frakked.  Never again.  Which is why Ebay's "new" business model is so nauseating....

We used to pay upfront, but were burned as well.

Most of the time the buyer counts on the creative person to not have the time or money to prosecute his case legally.  For everytime a creative type has reneged on a contract, 1000 other times a corporation has screwed a creative type out of money (look at the entire history of the music and film industry which is corporations screwing creative types out of money as an institution).  Seeing this, it shouldn't be a shock that even in our hobby it happens.  The solution, of course, is to only be paid up front. I would bet in many cases, this just isn't an option to work in the industry. Which really sucks.

Generally payment for writing or art is made upon publication of the product in the rpg industry. That is often several months after the creative turns in their work as graphic design, layout, printing and distribution must happen before a street date is hit. At XRP we pay upon acceptance of the art or manuscript. As I said above we tried to pay upon commission of the work because I think creatives (being one myself) have a hard enough time as is , but that got us burned so we stopped.

Paying upon acceptance is, IMO, a good middle ground. It protects the creative because they have no long delays between delivering the product and payment and it also protects the publisher as they don't have any upfront costs without a product in hand. It does mean that we as the publisher carry the debt on the work for a longer period as opposed to passing that carry time to the creative, but I don't mind that as I think it gives us a group of fairly loyal creatives that would be very understanding if we, god forbid, have any payment issues. I view it as building a good relationship that, if troubled times arise, will help us get over any rough patches.

joe b.

jgbrowning wrote:

Paying upon acceptance is, IMO, a good middle ground. It protects the creative because they have no long delays between delivering the product and payment and it also protects the publisher as they don't have any upfront costs without a product in hand. It does mean that we as the publisher carry the debt on the work for a longer period as opposed to passing that carry time to the creative, but I don't mind that as I think it gives us a group of fairly loyal creatives that would be very understanding if we, god forbid, have any payment issues. I view it as building a good relationship that, if troubled times arise, will help us get over any rough patches.

This sounds like the best method. I envision a wild west type showdown, the artist holding the artwork in an envelope, the publisher holiding a check in an envelope, warily eyeing each other...."Got the art?"  "Yep..got the check?" "Yep."  "Well, on the count of three we both lay them down on the table....1, 2, ....3!!!!"

Mike B.

We haven't talked nearly enough about religion in this thread...Personally I think those of us who haven't received out BC yet are clearly be punished by Jesus or L. Ron Hubbard or somebody...

No, I'm kidding. But I still haven't got this damn thing yet.  

Geoffrey wrote:Or how about this for fair?

It would result in twice the payment fees as PayPal is used extensively for payments. That would be about a 3% reduction in income for a freelancer. The person sending the payment wouldn't see any effect. I have only one person I work with that doesn't prefer PayPal.

Generally, the risk only really comes the first time, or the first few times one works with either a new creative or a new publisher. Once a relationship is established after successful delivery and payment transactions the risk decreases significantly. Of course, things can always go bad, but when that happens with an existing relationship there's usually some warnings that things are going downhill so there's time to protect oneself from exposure if one starts to think that there's no salvaging the situation.

joe b.

I've had a few different situations, usually depending on the publisher's standard operating procedure. Honestly, too, it depends on how busy I am and how much time & money is at stake. I have a steady full-time job, so I'd have to be a bit more adamant if fighting for scraps payed my rent. As it is, whatever the publisher likes usually works for me.

ZG's contract stated something like 100% upon publication or 9 mos after acceptance, whichever comes first. In both cases, publication was MUCH later than acceptance (as Joe stated above).

Goblinoid Games pays me 100% via paypal upon acceptance.

All of my non-RPG commissions pay 100% upon acceptance. One even pays me 100% in advance, because he knows that I'm reliable.

PPP was sort of a different deal, and I'll admit that I was foolish enough to get myself in that position. Our standing deal was 50% upon acceptance, and 50% a "reasonable time" after publication. No contract - a purely handshake deal (my bad). But, I trusted Rob and knew he wasn't living the high life on my borrowed dime. In between publications, it seemed like I was on unpaid retainer. A logo here, a web banner there. I was happy to help out. Things were prompt at first, and then started to gradually slide. I should have prepared myself (again as Joe stated above) when it started to get slushy. Again, my own fault for not utilizing a contract and standard invoice, etc. The reason that the cover artist got paid for BC is because he demanded paypal payment before delivering the final piece.

More than anything, I felt that my patience and generosity had been betrayed. Months later, when it started to appear that the customers were getting the shaft too, that's when I decided to speak up. Like I replied above, it's actually detrimental for me to be airing dirty laundry. It's very likely to make other pubs wary of employing me. It is a small niche, after all. That goes both ways.

I'd say that both freelancers and small pubs are in a tricky business. Most that I know generally do it for the love of the game and the craft -  no one's getting fat, except Mama Cass.