RJK's Bottle City updates
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Post Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 9:23 am 
 

The SE I got from NK is signed and numbered out of 500.


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Post Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 9:30 am 
 

Aneoth wrote:
Is your SE module signed and hand numbered?

And as a side note. I have tried on several occasions (Different days) to access the PPP's link to the PDF of the Text of BC, and have never been able to get anything.


Yes, the SE's are signed and numbered also.....

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Post Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 9:35 am 
 

FYI, The SE I received a month or so back says Limited Edition, but is signed and numbered  out of 500.  It gives the price as $150 (which I checked and did not pay).  It did have two smaller maps.
I would be very interested to hear comparisons from someone who got both the SE and the LE books as to the actual differences between the two.

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Post Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 9:50 am 
 

So it seems that there is NO difference whatsoever in the actual LE and SE modules themselves.

Including (originally at least) most of the big selling points for the LE, of the author's original signature and limited print run and numbering.

From the outside looking in, it would seem logical to assume that there was no misprint in the numbering of the module or the price of $150 as indicated on the back of all the modules. It would seem (at least to me) that the person who ordered them (sent them out to be printed) chose to order one print one and one print run only, not two separate print runs. If that is not the case, then the printer screwed us all.

However, in any case; and throughout this entire episode, PPP has displayed risky albeit very interesting sales and customer service techniques.

I kinda feel like I was sold a used car by a shady man with a checkered coat and wearing a very tacky tie. "This car is one of just a few of its kind ever made, a limited edition in fact, and it's the last one we have on the lot" ……….  "Only a few of these fine beauties were ever made (Read that as being between 500,000-1,000,000)" …… "You'd better hurry up and decide though, because that cute couple over there are eye balling it as we speak." …………


Apparently, Limited Edition does not mean Limited Edition .......
Not really.


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Post Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 11:03 am 
 

Aneoth wrote:So it seems that there is NO difference whatsoever in the actual LE and SE modules themselves.

Apparently, Limited Edition does not mean Limited Edition .......
Not really.


Hmmmm.....so as originally envisioned the SE was going to be loose leaf pages in a plastic baggy.  BUT in that case how much would the cost be to only print 51 LEs in book form?  The theory then is to drive the print costs of the LEs down they added the SEs into the same print run to obtain a volume discount?   The 51 LEs HAVE to be printed no matter what, so do it cheaper by printing 500+ of them and send the remainder out as SEs with "print errors".  Nice.   :wink:

Anyone have both a LE and SE to confirm they are the exact same?

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Post Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 11:14 am 
 

islestrike wrote:
Hmmmm.....so as originally envisioned the SE was going to be loose leaf pages in a plastic baggy.  BUT in that case how much would the cost be to only print 51 LEs in book form?  The theory then is to drive the print costs of the LEs down they added the SEs into the same print run to obtain a volume discount?   The 51 LEs HAVE to be printed no matter what, so do it cheaper by printing 500+ of them and send the remainder out as SEs with "print errors".  Nice.   :wink:

Anyone have both a LE and SE to confirm they are the exact same?

Cheers!


Obviously the booklet and module itself are exactly the same.  I'm sure the volume printing discount did come into play as regards the modules; they all say "Limited Collector's Edition $150" on the back.

As for the product itself, they aren't the EXACT same. My map is in two pieces; the LE is one large poster sized map. And I don't have the scans of the original MS. But otherwise, probably indistinguishable.

Might be worth noting this in the future as someone might try to sell a SE as a LE by pointing to the description on the back and saying "See?  Limited Colletor's Edition!".  Care will have to be taken in noting whether it's a one or two piece map.

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Post Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 11:19 am 
 

Just another note, this may be a dissenting opinion, but I believe the $150 version of Bottle City will hold it's value pretty well, seeing as there are only 51 copies in existence.  As point of reference, look at the Runic copies of other PPP modules and how well they have done on the after-market...$100+ prices the very few times they have sold.  And these are exactly the same as the cheaper copies also, except for the piece of paper inside designating them as a runic copy and Rob's sig on that piece of paper, there is no difference, correct?  That's even less a difference than the  Bottle City LE copies have with the SE copies.

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Post Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 12:02 pm 
 

Aneoth wrote:So it seems that there is NO difference whatsoever in the actual LE and SE modules themselves.

If you don't count the map and the reproduction of the original MS notes, then no, there are no differences at all.

Including (originally at least) most of the big selling points for the LE, of the author's original signature and limited print run and numbering.

Most of Rob's modules (COSK, TOB, for example) have come with certificates and are numbered with the author's signature.

Badmike wrote:And these are exactly the same as the cheaper copies also, except for the piece of paper inside designating them as a runic copy and Rob's sig on that piece of paper, there is no difference, correct? That's even less a difference than the Bottle City LE copies have with the SE copies.

Yes, that is so. There is no numbering or signature on the module booklets themselves, only on the certificate.

---
By the way, anyone who cannot access the PDF on the PPP web site should send me a PM with his e-mail address. There are currently some issues with the web site that I cannot fix at the moment.



  

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Post Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 12:08 pm 
 

dcas wrote:By the way, anyone who cannot access the PDF on the PPP web site should send me a PM with his e-mail address. There are currently some issues with the web site that I cannot fix at the moment.


I have sent you a PM.... Thank you in advance.
Best Regards, Aneoth


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Post Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 12:19 pm 
 

If you don't count the map and the reproduction of the original MS notes, then no, there are no differences at all.


As I stated.........

Aneoth wrote:
So it seems that there is NO difference whatsoever in the actual LE and SE modules themselves.


To make a further observation:
The larger map in the "LE" format is not exactly all that easy to read and is at this point (Not having yet read the Module itself) quite confusing, I can only imagine how the smaller two piece version looks. As for the scans, they are also hard to read and some parts are not legible.

But those things are not unsurprising to me, since the scans are from notes that were made in handwritting, and the map was also done by hand.

I also assume that the map situation will be made clear after reading and comparing it with the module.


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Post Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 12:44 pm 
 

Not to make excuses for Rob (we all know where I stand on this), but there was much confusion about the layout of the back cover. It's my hunch that the "Limited Edition", "XX/500" and "$150" are oversights and not intentional misrepresentations. Unless Rob is some sort of evil mastermind who knew grodog and I would miss it/not think of it. :twisted: My money's on human error though.

I did only send one version to the printer, and checking my production files, they are just as you've all been describing.

Out of curiosity, how well do the two pieces of the map match up? I was worried that the printer would do a poor job trimming the sheets, even though I set the bleed up as best I could. A bindery room paper trimmer isn't the most surgically precise of instruments.


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Post Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 1:02 pm 
 

I haven't seen any complaints about the maps but we'll see now that more copies are out. Given what the original looks like it would not be surprising if it were hard-to-read in spots.



  


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Post Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 1:14 pm 
 

True. I think that the hand-written hard-to-read feel was the original intent. Authenticity.  As was stated above, that's why there's a PDF transcript of the original notes as well. Save vs Chicken Scratch at +2 or suffer Confusion.


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Post Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 1:30 pm 
 

So, exactly how many modules were printed?

500?
551?

some other number?

For the LE's:
Were they all numbered first, In other words are they (The LE Modules) numberd one through fifty one and the rest (The SE's) numbered fifty two through whatever?

Or was there no conscious decision for numbering the modules?


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Last edited by Gnat the Beggar on Wed Mar 12, 2008 7:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
  


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Post Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 1:42 pm 
 

Unfortunately, I think Rob's the only one who can answer that. He ordered the books and had all the communication with the printer - I just sent them the production file when it was finally ready to go. Obviously, he's also the one who signed and numbered them.


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Post Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 2:23 pm 
 

All,

I'd like to express my thanks to Rob & his team for the pleasant surprise of receiving my LE BC (#43) yesterday.

Due to the serious illness of a family member, I'm not actively collecting D&D anymore.

But this brightened my day.

It was "just what the doctor ordered" at a very tough time.

Regards,
Keith


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Post Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 12:47 am 
 

Just recived my copies from Noble night.  Cool :)


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Post Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 4:22 am 
 

Keith the Thief wrote:All,

Due to the serious illness of a family member, I'm not actively collecting D&D anymore.

Regards,
Keith


Sorry to hear you're having difficulties, Keith, and I thank you for making me feel like I actually helped lighten your load by helping get those out, if only a little bit, it helps me keep in my own mind that that's simply what gaming and fantasy adventuring is all about! :) I hope all turns out well for you and your family.

  


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Post Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 4:53 am 
 

On differences between Bottle City Standard Edition and Bottle City Limited Edition:

    As has been noted, both the SE and LE versions are now the same book. Notes in the module explain the map in several places. Naturally, the larger map is significantly more clear than the smaller version. The originally intended and specific differences of note are:

    Standard Edition: 500 serialized, signed and hand numbered copies. The number and signature are in indelible BLACK ink. The number is written immediately to the left of the /500 on the back cover in the signing area. Included in the package are the two parts of the map, in small, 8.5 x 11 pages.

    Limited Edition: 51 serialized editions. Each includes the very large map, on very thick paper. The large map and the back of the book are serialized from 1-51 in the upper left area of the white signature space, although in the lower right corner there is a blank /500. Additionally, the signature includes on both map and book the handwritten designation, RJK-1. The color used to sign, serialize and designate (RJK-1) both map and module is green. Additionally, each LE comes with (I believe 6?) printed sheets of the original notes, representing exactly what the content either Gary or Rob judged "____" levels from, back in the day. Thus, one can see how their own notes are often more extensive than theirs were, or less extensive, etc. It's a nice and historical comparison.

   I would like to note, that as one of the guys who was making maps back in the day, I have ALWAYS loved the eccentricity of those graphic representations we used and played with. While I like to think of myself as a perfectionist when it comes to putting down a set of lines, the originals I've handled, including entire map sets I did for modules never even published by TSR - such as the maps for the entire Xaene series, Geburrah, and Greyhawk castle - have always been like artwork to me. There's just something about a well worn map that has a unique character and content of its own. I personally know for a fact that when Rob decided to design the Limited Edition with a copy of the Bottle City map in full blown poster size, it was in part due to my comment that this is one of the BEST of the artifacts from back in the day.

    As we know, to some, having the actual map in their hands would seem just like holding a decrepit piece of worn paper that looks like pure JUNK. They'd wrinkle it up and toss it out without a glance. However, looking at its age - I mean, we add fake aging parchment effects to published maps nowdays, the aged edges on this map are real - and the wear and details and marks, make this map clearly a joy to possess in FULL BLOWN detail.

   Now, I know I've recently been controversial in this forum for defending a friend, but now I must defend the craft and the entire idea of our trade when I state in absolute terms - this map is an exquisite example of our roots and should engender a love in anyone with the least bit of appreciation for the real values, not just the collectible values, behind our game and its history.

   I really love that map!

   I would find it odd to be one of the few who hold that much respect for what it represents and is. But maybe that's just me as a graphics goon!

   Wait until you see the Stalk map I recently did. ;) A few of you should get quite the chuckle if you try to imagine what I must have been working with as an original and how I must have winced all the while trying to get it to work as a black and white graphic!


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Post Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 5:08 am 
 

Yeah, I like the map too.  And by the way, the sheets of the smaller version match up perfectly.


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