RJK's Bottle City updates
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Post Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 2:49 pm 
 

killjoy32 wrote:
worth shelling out the extra $ ?


Truthfully?  Probably not. Especially with it in mind that Rob offered the scans free via pdf now.   I mean the big map is nice, however its simply just a poster, same as any poster you can pick up at the store.   Admittedly, part of wanting the LE was rooted in my desire to help out Rob and PPP which has now obviously soured quite a bit now, but even still an extra $130 for a poster isn't much for the money when you look at it from a neutral persepective.  I am sure from a value holding perspective the poster map will serve its purpose, but just from a sheer cost perspective, that $130 seems to be a alot.

dcas wrote:I think those were all the differences that were cited on the original product page (the references to the LE were removed when it was sold out).


True enough, although I think I found out after the fact that he was planning on including the extra commentary and historical information for everyone, not before.   Part of my reason for buying the LE was most certainly rooted in helping invest in PPP and Rob's work, so I likely would have bought a LE regardless, but IIRC the fact that the LE was including at the time I ordered it, the "extras" of the notes(that were originally not going to be included with the SE) was a certainly a selling point for me.  this was changed lost after Rob heard from so many people being upset it was not going to be included initially.  Bear in mind I am not looking to place blame on anyone, as I could have just as easily cancelled my order before it was done because I still would have had plenty of time to do so if I chose to.


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Last edited by bclarkie on Wed Mar 12, 2008 11:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
  


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Post Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 2:59 pm 
 

bclarkie wrote:From what I can tell in my brief scan through, the map itself is just a one piece poster of better quality, as opposed to the two piece map that came with the SE.   Additionally, there are included photocopies of the original encounter description pages and there is also an appology letter now included as well. Other than that the module itself is identical.


I'm sure I'm not the only one who wants to know what the letter says.

Or maybe I am.  I'm nosy like that. :)


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Post Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 3:32 pm 
 

bclarkie wrote:True enough, although I think I found out after the fact that he was planning on including the extra commentary and historical information for everyone, not before.   Part of my reason for buying the LE was most certainly rooted in helping invest in PPP and Rob's work, so I likely would have bought a LE regardless, but IIRC the fact that the LE was including at the time I ordered it, the "extras" of the notes (that were originally not going to be included with the SE) was a certainly a selling point for me.  this was changed lost after Rob heard from so many people being upset it was not going to be included initially.  Bear in mind I am not looking to place blame on anyone, as I could have just as easily cancelled my order before it was done because I still would have had plenty of time to do so if I chose to.


I think it was nice of you to invest in PPP for the sake of helping out.

However; my take on the situation is very much different in that I had been led to believe that I was making a higher priced purchase for a product that would be a VERY special limited edition (Hence the LE label and claims made by PPP). The original statements by PPP and Rob were that only 40-50 sets of the LE package would be sold. And that later on, lesser module packages would be offered for less money. (The SA's).

Instead I will (one hopes anyway) receive two of 543 copies that are exactly the same save for the map size.  :roll:  

It would have been nice if the two types of module packages (LE/SA) that were being offered had remained as was first reported by PPP; But well AFTER I had made my investment I read (Here of course) that I could have had the exact same item (Smaller map) for far less money and in far less time too.  8O

Unfortunately for me though; by the time that was reported to the masses, It was too late for me to ask for my money back and even if it had not been too late for that, what chance is there I could have gotten any of that back anyway?

IMO that decision by Rob and in general PPP was a direct insult to the folks who had already invested so heavily in the LE. I felt betrayed; and I still do. Those of us who had paid for the LE's had paid for the more expensive module packages based on the word of PPP and Rob. Later on that word proved to be of little or even no Value whatsoever.

Save for a bigger map (One 11x17 instead of Two 8x11); we could have spent one tenth as much and gotten the exact same product and the exact same map, just not in one piece .............

FASTER.

Normally, I would never pay 135 bucks for a poster, and certainly not 270 for two of them. My investment of 300 (Instead of 30) appears to have been a very bad decision on my part.   :oops:   ..........

And Yes, if I had it to do over, there is NO WAY I would send PPP 300 bucks.  
In fact, I may not have even sent the 15 for one SA.

For what its worth at this late date:
There was a separate area at the web site for straight up monetary donations to PPP.
Several different levels of donations were in fact offered, depending on your funds available for such donations....
I did not click on that section for a reason.
Investing in PPP (Or donating) was not my intent EVER............

As I stated above; I felt betrayed; and I still do.

BTW: An apology letter added to the LE package is far too little and far too late IMO.


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Post Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 3:38 pm 
 

g026r wrote:
I'm sure I'm not the only one who wants to know what the letter says.

Or maybe I am.  I'm nosy like that. :)

Don't tell him, man.  It'll kill the resale value. :P

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Post Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 3:49 pm 
 

Aneoth wrote:The original statements by PPP and Rob were that only 40-50 copies of the LE packages would be shipped out.

limited 100 maximum but finished 50-60 fwiw

  

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Post Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 3:50 pm 
 

Rakeesh sah Tarna wrote:limited 100 maximum but finished 50-60


I read here that 43 LE sets were sold.


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Post Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 5:03 pm 
 

Aneoth wrote:However; my take on the situation is very much different in that I had been led to believe that I was making a higher priced purchase for a product that would be a VERY special limited edition (Hence the LE label and claims made by PPP). The original statements by PPP and Rob were that only 40-50 sets of the LE package would be sold. And that later on, lesser module packages would be offered for less money. (The SA's).

The original statement was that up to 100 limited edition copies would be printed, but only 51 or so were ordered so that's the number that was printed.

Instead I will (one hopes anyway) receive two of 543 copies that are exactly the same save for the map size.  :roll:  

I think Rob was pretty upfront about this, with the exception of the transcription of the original notes and the binding of the standard edition. I believe the Limited Edition contains both the transcription as well as a reproduction of the note pages themselves.

He only included the transcription with the standard edition because of public outcry. The initial plan was for it not to be included. In addition, the standard edition was to have been loose pages in a zip-lock bag, but Rob was able to make a deal with the printer to have the standard edition saddle-stitched.

I am fairly certain that these changes to the standard edition were announced before the limited edition pre-order period had ended.

I'm not trying to excuse anything that has happened with PPP in general or Bottle City in particular over the last 5-6 months, and I can certainly understand why supporters of PPP have soured on it. That said, I think that Rob was honest and open about what the different editions contained. Those who ordered the LE aren't getting anything less than Rob originally said they would get (there may have been some confusion over the map size), while those who ordered the SE are getting more than originally planned.



  

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Post Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 6:06 pm 
 

dcas wrote:Those who ordered the LE aren't getting anything less than Rob originally said they would get (there may have been some confusion over the map size), while those who ordered the SE are getting more than originally planned.


again, just to clarify, i havent bought either due to paying for my marathon thing and GenCon....but....

isnt the above a form of contradiction still?

by offering the folk getting the SE a lot more for the small payment, and i feel its a LOT more too, by doing that, you are effectively diminishing what the folk getting the LE are getting, so effectively, they are getting something less.

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Post Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 6:21 pm 
 

killjoy32 wrote:again, just to clarify, i havent bought either due to paying for my marathon thing and GenCon....but....

isnt the above a form of contradiction still?

I don't think it's a contradiction. Yes, the plans for the SE were changed but the changes weren't secret and as bclarkie pointed out those who ordered the LE could have cancelled their orders if they felt that what they were getting wasn't worth it.



  

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Post Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 6:30 pm 
 

dcas wrote:I don't think it's a contradiction. Yes, the plans for the SE were changed but the changes weren't secret and as bclarkie pointed out those who ordered the LE could have cancelled their orders if they felt that what they were getting wasn't worth it.


actually dude, i wasnt arguing about it :)

just merely pointing out that by giving the SE guys more, the LE guys ARE getting less..

but hey what do i know :)

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Post Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 6:39 pm 
 

killjoy32 wrote:actually dude, i wasnt arguing about it :)

just merely pointing out that by giving the SE guys more, the LE guys ARE getting less..

but hey what do i know :)

Oh, sorry if I misunderstood. Yes, in relative terms the LE folks are getting less but in absolute terms they are getting what was initially offered. I guess in retrospect Rob might have sweetened the LE version a little bit but hindsight is 20/20.

Anyway, sorry to inject myself into the discussion.



  

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Post Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 6:43 pm 
 

dcas wrote:
Anyway, sorry to inject myself into the discussion.


same here, will go back to my corner now and talk senseless babble like i always do :D

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Post Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 8:12 pm 
 

burntwire brothers wrote:Well we finally received our LE copies today. :D  :D

There was obviously a printing error on the SEs because they also state a price of $150 on the back cover.  :?


Marvelous news!!!


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Post Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 2:13 am 
 

Just to clarify:  the Limited Edition includes a reproduction of the original  manuscript pages and the Standard Edition does not.  The file linked to from the PPP site and mentioned at the end of the module is just a typed-up transcription of the content of the original ms., not the actual ms. page scans---those only appear in the LE.  That, in addition to the single-sheet high-quality poster map vs. 2 11x17 standard-weight sheets are the main differences between the editions (along with the numbering scheme, of course).

The transcript is available to both groups for several reasons:  1) to help the LE folks read the ms. where it's not legible, 2) to provide errata (which it sounds like I need to update after I get a chance to read the final printed products), and 3) to give all of the readers a sense of what it takes to develop a finished module from an original set of outlined notes.

I'm hoping that I'll have some time to read BC again this week, during time between Henry's naps/feedings :D


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Post Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 3:41 am 
 

Can't get the download link to work!?


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Post Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 5:23 am 
 

Got mine yesterday.   :D


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Post Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 8:34 am 
 

Glad to hear everyone's starting to receive their Limited Editions. My hours have been screwed up since this last weekend, so I made arrangements to put off today's midterm until I return from Spring Break. Thus, I'll be able to pack all of the remaining orders tonight and get them out in the morning at the same all night post office as was used last week to get out those BC LE's.

That should resolve all of the outstanding orders that I am aware of.

  

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Post Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 8:41 am 
 

grodog wrote: Just to clarify:  the Limited Edition includes a reproduction of the original  manuscript pages and the Standard Edition does not.  The file linked to from the PPP site and mentioned at the end of the module is just a typed-up transcription of the content of the original ms., not the actual ms. page scans---those only appear in the LE.  That, in addition to the single-sheet high-quality poster map vs. 2 11x17 standard-weight sheets are the main differences between the editions (along with the numbering scheme, of course).

The transcript is available to both groups for several reasons:  1) to help the LE folks read the ms. where it's not legible, 2) to provide errata (which it sounds like I need to update after I get a chance to read the final printed products), and 3) to give all of the readers a sense of what it takes to develop a finished module from an original set of outlined notes.

I'm hoping that I'll have some time to read BC again this week, during time between Henry's naps/feedings :D


First off thank you for clarifying. And far more thanks for your patient continued support for your fellow members of The Acaeum.

I received the BC LE Modules yesterday. And I have not had a chance to review the package fully, other than to quickly look over the Map and thumb through the Module and sift through the Scan Sheets.

However, I noted one odd item on the rear cover of the modules.
Both are printed/labeled xx of 500............
I did not purchase any SE's, only two LE's.

Rob hand Signed and hand numbered both modules (inside a white box on rear cover) and both maps (back side at a corner) and the maps and modules are respectively numbered 11 and 12...........
However; to the right side of the white box of each module the number 500 appears in print.............

Making the modules seem to be 11 and 12 of 500.........
NOT 11 and 12 of 51

Are the LE modules themselves truly two out of 51 or are they actually just two copies out of 500  (or perhaps two of 551 modules that are exactly the same modules other than the larger maps?

Without seeing any SE modules I have no way of knowing if the SE modules were also signed and numbered then what are the differences in the two types of modules? Are they all (as I now suspect) exactly the same? Meaning there was actually a single print run of exactly 500 modules (Or 551?).

Please explain how the numbering scheme is different between the two types of modules? And are there any differences at all between the SE and LE modules themselves?

I guess what I am trying to spit out is that there appears to be nothing at all to distinguish an LE module from an SE module.


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Post Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 9:00 am 
 

Aneoth wrote:

Making the modules seem to be 11 and 12 of 500.........
NOT 11 and 12 of 51



John;

It's a misprint, I think it was clarified on the PPP boards. I know I saw it somewhere.

The LEs have one large map; the SEs break this into two maps. The LEs have a photocopy of the original MS included which the SEs don't have.

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Post Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 9:08 am 
 

Badmike wrote:
John;

It's a misprint, I think it was clarified on the PPP boards. I know I saw it somewhere.

The LEs have one large map; the SEs break this into two maps. The LEs have a photocopy of the original MS included which the SEs don't have.

Mike B.


Is your SE module signed and hand numbered?

And as a side note. I have tried on several occasions (Different days) to access the PPP's link to the PDF of the Text of BC, and have never been able to get anything.


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