RJK's Bottle City updates
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Post Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 11:08 am 
 

Deadlord39 wrote:Enscrook is obviously a troll. Probably RJK himself.

** post edited **


enshook = Eric Nelson Shook.  Pretty simple to figure that out.

No one is happy about the situation and Rob does owe everyone that pre-purchased Bottle City an apology for the lateness and even a partial refund would be nice, but this post from you is absolutely sickening.  If you want to send this classless crap to someone, please do it in the form of a PM or you can go over to Rob's Pied Piper boards and do it there.


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Post Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 11:43 am 
 

I don't know a damn thing about fantasy writing, but I do know snow.  That story is bullshit.  Here's why.

A good shovel = $20.  A kid to use that shovel = $10 an hour, at most.  (Less if he's a fan of fantasy fiction and you happen to have some published work handy.)

The point is, RJK could and should have asked or paid for help.

When you make a commitment, you're responsible for seeing it through.  Period.  You don't have to do everything yourself, but you do have to make sure it all gets done.  That's where he failed, and continues to fail, plain and simple.  

"Enshook" dropped by the place the other day and apparently whistled off with his copy happily.  Can't such a close friend be counted upon to help you meet your committment when you're sick and snowed in, and thereby salvage your reputation?  The time he wasted posting that lame series of explanations alone could have put 50-100 copies in the post.

The last thing he should be focusing on is writing.  I think that ship has sailed.

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Post Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 11:43 am 
 

Since some people here are bringing the "discussion" to other places around the net, I felt the need to drop by and express my thoughts.

While I support the consumer's right to complain about a product -- be it quality or in this case, late delivery, I was taken aback at the level of nastiness that some here have lowered themselves to.

I think some of our members  have done a discredit to their person as well as, done a real disservice to this site and its members.

Me, I ordered the BC module and expect the product to be delivered now that Rob is somewhat back on his feet.

But frankly, I care less about a paper module or money than I do about the health and well being of a fellow human being. One who has given quite to bit to this industry and continues to work hard at contributing.

I've purchased Cairn, Tower and the Living Room. All products were excellently produced and delivered in a very timely fashion for a very reasonable price. So to me, Rob has been stellar in running PPP up until this unfortunate disaster with regard to his health and well being.

So my feeling is, I'll cut him mucho slack and be a little patient and I know I'll get my module.


:?


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Post Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 11:45 am 
 

Deadlord39 wrote:Enscrook is obviously a troll. Probably RJK himself.

** post edited **

Umm Frank...uh...ouch. 8O

Can't we just keep the insults and debate NON sexually insulting in nature?  It just adds an entire other dimension when you are bringng orientation into it...well, unless it's Coug...

And wishing death on someone is a bit extreme...again, unless we are talking Coug.... :wink:

I think we just just stick to the facts and concentrate on somewhat civil debate.  I'm as pissed as anyone, and I understand the level of frustration at this point has reached 11, but let's step back a bit if this is the level of discourse we are going to engage in....

Mike B.


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Post Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 11:48 am 
 

Sorry, I just get insanely pissed when people defend crooks. That's part of the problem with this country.


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Post Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 11:49 am 
 

Badmike wrote:Umm Frank...uh...ouch. 8O


I think we all know Frank well enough to understand that this just means he is mildly irritated.

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Post Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 11:56 am 
 

bclarkie wrote:This is the most asshole statement I have read in a long time.  First off and foremost its completely presumptuous with not a single fact to back it up.  Secondly its utterly wrong.  I personally am on the hook in this mess for $170 this go around and roughly another $200 for the previous 2 modules put out.  Aneoth on his own is on the hook for at least $300 for his 2 LE copies.  Aside from that when I look at the sponsor lists I know and could potentially have a very strong say with about 75% of those people.  Do you honestly think that with this debacle as it stands right now, along with this arrogant presumptuous tripe that you are spouting in conjunction with my own and several other subtle nudgings, that these people are going to continue give Rob money??? If you do you are completely and utterly deluded.   On top of that, are you the one ponying up my refund?  Let me know and I'll give you my home address, since you seem to think that my contributions are small.  Its only $170 right?

Oh yeah, and one last thing.  Why is it again that Rob hasn't paid his people yet?


I can't add much to this.  I would point out to people coming here to defend Rob, please take the time to read this thread from Page Five onwards...a lot of the issues have already been discussed here in depth.  Just saying Rob is a nice guy, or he was sick, or there was a lot of snow, have already been discounted because of one over-riding issue:  the absolute LACK of any type of communication from PPP to the buyers regarding these issues, which had to be dribbled out third-hand instead of confronted full on.  Calls for patience or lengthy explanations are NOT going to be dealt with at this point with anything other than rank skepticism.  It's all old ground that I would rather not cover any longer. The one overriding issue is "When is the product going to ship?"  That's all. Everything else at this point is irrelevant. Well that and the shoddy way Jason and Jim were treated, which I also hope has a resolution.

Mike B.


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Post Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 12:01 pm 
 

Rhuvein wrote:Since some people here are bringing the "discussion" to other places around the net, I felt the need to drop by and express my thoughts.

While I support the consumer's right to complain about a product -- be it quality or in this case, late delivery, I was taken aback at the level of nastiness that some here have lowered themselves to.

I think some of our members  have done a discredit to their person as well as, done a real disservice to this site and its members.

Me, I ordered the BC module and expect the product to be delivered now that Rob is somewhat back on his feet.

But frankly, I care less about a paper module or money than I do about the health and well being of a fellow human being. One who has given quite to bit to this industry and continues to work hard at contributing.

I've purchased Cairn, Tower and the Living Room. All products were excellently produced and delivered in a very timely fashion for a very reasonable price. So to me, Rob has been stellar in running PPP up until this unfortunate disaster with regard to his health and well being.

So my feeling is, I'll cut him mucho slack and be a little patient and I know I'll get my module.


:?


Rhu

with all due respect here, i agree with what youre saying, but again i do think you have actually missed the main point folk have been driving at with regards to this whole thing....

if you are ill....or whatever the situation, ask for help

in the end, someone who is dissatisfied, has every right to advocate such. its up to the individual concerned to defend themselves and resolve the situation. as this hasnt happened, it has escalated and will prb continue to do so until the matter HAS been resolved.

Al



  

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Post Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 12:03 pm 
 

I'm really getting tired of people jumping to RJK's defense. If you're defending him you really haven't been paying attention. Mucho, mucho, mucho slack has been cut in the case of illness. Rather than even a weak attempt at reconciliation, he's actually lied to his consumers on what, four occasions know?

If he is unable to meet his responsibilities then he shouldn't have them. The long string of excuses, refusal of help, continued lies (He's still sitting on about half his orders according to Eric Shook, who recently visited), and unwillingness to admit any kind of fault over the matter is indefensible at this point. Its apparent that he has exhibited similar behavior in the past. It's really not even about the money now, more like basic human responsiblity.


Hmm, no, I don't have a gambling problem, I'm winning, and winning is not a problem. That's like saying Michael Jordan has a basketball problem, or Def Leppard has an awesomeness problem. So why don't y'all pour some sugar on that?


Last edited by Cattledog on Wed Mar 05, 2008 12:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.
  

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Post Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 12:03 pm 
 

Hi All,

unfortunately, if everyone is "politely irritated" then the minor crooks of this world will get away with many crimes.

It is only when people get "seriously p*ssed" that those minor crooks have a tendency to become a bit more responsible.

I think that PPP has it coming.

If they are at Indy, and I havent received my module by then, then I will have a few choice words to say, and, obviously, I'll be asking for a refund.

Cheers,
Malc

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Post Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 12:06 pm 
 

enshook wrote:
As for Kenzer, they haven't been waiting 5 years. When the second half of the manuscript was given to them years ago, they had already had this other author finish it. As to how the communication problem occurred, let's just note that both were at fault. It wasn't as if Kenzer couldn't have exercised several methods of contacting Rob through intermediaries to express this change. Rob was significantly surprised and shocked. He would have preferred to see his version of it entirely hit the presses. I believe that half of the manuscript is now owned by a collector who frequents here.


Thanks for taking the time!


Well that's not what Kenzer himself says.  They were still waiting for him to turn in his promised manuscript after they had published the book and it was being sold.  Scroll down to the bottom:

http://necromancergames.yuku.com/topic/ ... ml?page=10

But yes you are right the whole misunderstanding could have been avoided if Kenzer had contacted Rob using that most ancient means of communication - send forth Intermediaries!  Maybe the Swiss embassy could have sent word in time?  They could have certainly helped with skiers and St. Bernards getting through the snow to rescue Bottled City.

:lol:

enshook wrote:
Thanks for taking the time!


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Post Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 12:11 pm 
 

enshook wrote:
As for it snowing somehow being a BS issue for some of you, try finding a plow that will remove a 6 foot high city produced embankment at the end of a one end alley in a relatively remote industrial area, with a new owner who is apparently an absent landlord. It took two weeks to even get a plow that would agree it could move it and for double the price in order to get them all the way down from the far north end of the city. One plow even arrived and refused.



Those damnable plowmen!

Cheers!

  

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Post Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 12:22 pm 
 

enshook wrote:As for this notion that he sold all the BC modules to Noble Knight Games, I can only wonder how you can so assuredly conclude such a thing? NKG also had to wait this out, since they're an equal customer, just like all the others. However, being they always pre-order in mass, they get their orders in the first batch going out, just as others like them also get first orders. It's always been this way. It just wasn't noticed previously, because orders went out more orderly and promptly.



Hmmm ....I don't see the name Aaron Leeder or Noble Knight Games in the list of sponsors for either cotsk or tob.  Can someone check bc?  I think that is a major shaft considering his large pre-order support according to you.

But if what you say is true - that NKG gets their order in the first batch going out then pre-order makes zero sense.  No need to pre-order from PPP as NKG will their get copies first and you can buy through them.

It's always been that way has it?  Thanks for clarifying!

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Post Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 1:05 pm 
 

enshook wrote:My two posts here have been to say, "Hey, the guy's been down hard. Give him a break. He'll be OK, product will go out and is going out. The module looks sharp! Things will get better. Always look on the bright side of life!" ;) And, moreover, I'm posting for his fans to read this and take comfort in having a good explanation from someone close to Rob who cares as much as they do.

Can you answer "yes" to any of these questions?

1. Do you like Rob?

2. Do you want Rob/PPP to succeed?

3. Are you trying to just "help out" here, with no other agenda?

If you can answer "yes" to any of the above questions, then I have a free piece of advice for you: stop posting your excuse-filled, enabling bullshit; you are just getting everyone even MORE fired up.

I'm being dead serious with this: you are NOT doing Rob any favors by reminding every one here that he still refuses to communicate anything himself, he still doesn't understand his litany of excuses/lies/bullshit isn't working this time, he still doesn't understand why it's wrong to ship dozens of copies to a reseller before sending any to the fans who sent him their money in a direct show of support, and he still doesn't see that his reputation is dangling by the thinnest of threads ... and that the only reason there's even a thread in the first place is that we respect guys like Allan Grohe so much.

But, hey, it's a free internet and you post where, when, and what you want; I've said my piece and I won't bring it up again. But, one last time, I'm totally not kidding: if you're trying to help Rob, you've chosen the wrong strategy. This has gone way beyond the actual physical items ...

+++++

A final thought: if you're a friend of RJK's, I have a message for you and his other buddies: stop fucking ENABLING his behavior. Despite being a grown man, he apparently needs to be told, to his face, that his excuses are bullshit, his pattern of behavior is reprehensible, his treatment of the fans who support his vanity project is vile, and that his reputation, such as it is, is in tatters.

Most importantly, tell him he is not a gaming god. He's a minor figure in gaming history who has almost no individual credits to speak of and who has spent countless years riding Gary Gygax's slipstream.

+++++

And I didn't even order any of his bullshit products. I can only imagine how angry I'd be if I was actually missing some money from this disaster ...

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Post Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 3:00 pm 
 

I'm definitely done posting, or even READING this thread. It only serves to get me sizzling mad. I'd have taken a road trip by now if I had bought one of the damn things.
I wish everyone who bought one of them the best of luck. You will need it.


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Post Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 5:18 pm 
 

While Rob has done himself damage over The Bottle City, I do hope he can make it up in the future. I don't knock the guy for a run of ill health.


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Post Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 5:53 pm 
 

lawrenson wrote:It is only when people get "seriously p*ssed" that those minor crooks have a tendency to become a bit more responsible.


Or, the guilty parties can now point to this thread, observe that it's become a flamefest by the usual bunch of flame-enthusiasts, & conclude that it will thus lose credibility. Slinging s*** like a madwoman rarely helps one's case.

  


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Post Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 6:18 pm 
 

Speaking of losing credibility ...  :roll:  :roll:  :roll:

Apparently you missed the parts where:

1. Grodog himself — the only rational person involved in this entire mess — asked this community for feedback on how this train-wreck could be made better;

2. This thread had lost much of its steam before this enshook genius posted not one, but two, manifestos defending a year's worth of lame excuses, outright lies, lack of direct communication, and production of vaporware from his good buddy RJK. Way to stir the hornets' nest there, buddy. Always a good idea.

Did he — or you, apparently — really expect that he could do that and not provoke more passionate responses?

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Post Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 6:25 pm 
 

Badmike wrote:
I can't add much to this.  I would point out to people coming here to defend Rob, please take the time to read this thread from Page Five onwards...a lot of the issues have already been discussed here in depth.  Just saying Rob is a nice guy, or he was sick, or there was a lot of snow, have already been discounted because of one over-riding issue:  the absolute LACK of any type of communication from PPP to the buyers regarding these issues, which had to be dribbled out third-hand instead of confronted full on.  Calls for patience or lengthy explanations are NOT going to be dealt with at this point with anything other than rank skepticism.  It's all old ground that I would rather not cover any longer. The one overriding issue is "When is the product going to ship?"  That's all. Everything else at this point is irrelevant. Well that and the shoddy way Jason and Jim were treated, which I also hope has a resolution.

Mike B.


I'm really getting tired of people jumping to RJK's defense. If you're defending him you really haven't been paying attention. Mucho, mucho, mucho slack has been cut in the case of illness. Rather than even a weak attempt at reconciliation, he's actually lied to his consumers on what, four occasions know?

If he is unable to meet his responsibilities then he shouldn't have them. The long string of excuses, refusal of help, continued lies (He's still sitting on about half his orders according to Eric Shook, who recently visited), and unwillingness to admit any kind of fault over the matter is indefensible at this point. Its apparent that he has exhibited similar behavior in the past. It's really not even about the money now, more like basic human responsiblity.


enshook wrote:

As someone said, "just ship the product," which is being done. I went by tonight and he's about half way through.



No he's already done as he put here in no uncertain terms here on February 22:

http://p085.ezboard.com/fpiedpiperpubli ... eRange?top icID=16.topic&start=41&stop=48

Question:
Galbrechin wrote:
So all orders are now in the mail?  


Answer:
The Pied PiperRJK wrote:
As of today, all past orders are, but not those reeceived in the last week.  


Or are you saying that he lied when he wrote that... AGAIN?

You wonder why people are pissed off? They are sick of being lied to, over and over and over again. Rob has told us at least 4 different times now that these items where either in the processed of being shipped or had already shipped and using your very own statement as fact, only roughly 50% of his orders still haven't been shipped yet. WHY????




If you are just joining us, try reading a few earlier posts...


Hmm, no, I don't have a gambling problem, I'm winning, and winning is not a problem. That's like saying Michael Jordan has a basketball problem, or Def Leppard has an awesomeness problem. So why don't y'all pour some sugar on that?

  


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Post Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 8:25 pm 
 

Hey, look! I can revise history here too


Last edited by enshook on Wed Mar 05, 2008 9:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
  
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