RJK's Bottle City updates
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Post Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 5:55 am 
 

i appreciate what it is that you are trying to say.

i will just pipe a little on the matter. this whole scenario doesnt affect me at all, so i am utterly neutral in it.

however that said, for me, when someone makes a promise, thats how it is. when someone breaks it repeatedly, thats a whole different matter.

again, i have said before, i have more respect for someone who will speak for themselves in person and i think i would speak for most on that.

nobody has a problem being told "How the land lies", but why cant the original source say that themselves?

anyway, either way, i just hope it all works out for everyone, Rob, the paying customers and the fans.

Al


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Post Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 7:20 am 
 

I've been staying out of this, for the most part, but your comparison of this RJK fiasco to the LE CAS books that have been coming out (on time) for the last couple of years forces me to chime in:

Le me assure you that the people complaining in this thread are mostly not the people with deep pockets, if any of them are present at all. These people order copies of special edition books years in advance of publication, like those reprints of Clarke Ashton Smith's works that we're all waiting for to be produced, which illustrates their patience and understanding. In fact, several of them have posted or emailed that they wouldn't mind being put to the end of the line in the roll out of orders if Rob is having health problems.


For one, it's "Clark" Ashton Smith. Secondly, these books (from Night Shade) have been coming out on schedule...  Three so far, and the fourth might be a little delayed from what I've heard. Why? Because there has been some slight trouble in getting the original manuscripts from libraries, private collections, etc. to use in editing the stories for publication. Is this analogous to RJK's situation? NO! He has the original manuscripts he's using sitting somewhere in his abode, within easy reach....

As for deep pockets, the CAS books cost $40 apiece. Hardly crippling expense. People with "deep pockets" are not the ones who support endeavors like this, for the most part. It is hundreds of people who feel that the work is worthwhile, and are willing to spend their hard-earned money (yes, sometimes years in advance, sometimes painstakingly saved up) to help it see the light of day. But, they do so with a reasonable expectation that it WILL!! You might find twenty or so collectors with deep pockets to finance RJK's next limited edition of 500, but I really doubt that they will want to preorder 25 copies apiece  :wink: , especially if they're not sure it will even be printed. Rich people like to get what they pay for as much as we mere peasants.

I should probably stop ranting, since the only copy I purchased was from NK (I have been looking at it on PPPs site for months, but was never comfortable enough to order) and I have it already. Regardless of health problems, weather, etc., RJK has displayed a singular lack of discipline and communication skills throughout this process, as well as almost incredible arrogance in not enlisting more help from others (to shovel, ship, etc.), which would obviously be forthcoming. After seeing how this has played out, I for one would not consider purchasing another product published by PPP, either directly or through NK.

  

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Post Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 9:25 am 
 

I really love this...Not only do we get second hand excuse making but according to Shook, RJK still hasn't sent all the material out!

Look, in the real world the rest of us have to account for our actions. Many of us have gotten second chances or even third chances when we've messed up. However, we've gotten those other opportunities when we've accepted fault and apologized meanwhile doing all we can to rectify the issue.

So far all we have from RJK are his exceedingly responsible friends/compatriots at PPP propping him up with his dubious excuses. I've been sick, had all sorts of automobile problems, broken limbs, rattlesnake bites, etc...Hard times happen to us all but not every three months unless we have severe personality disorders or illegal/perscription drug addiction. (I'm expecting to hear that soon  :roll:  )

This isn't a single issue we can all say is a "one time thing." He's done this on several occasions to nearly everyone willing to give him a chance or a second chance. Assistance past this point is codependent enabling at its finest.

So, Where is my copy?
Wait, what am I complaining about? Shouldn't the gaming world just cut this guy a 17th break?


Hmm, no, I don't have a gambling problem, I'm winning, and winning is not a problem. That's like saying Michael Jordan has a basketball problem, or Def Leppard has an awesomeness problem. So why don't y'all pour some sugar on that?

  

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Post Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 9:54 am 
 

Enscrook is obviously a troll. Probably RJK himself.

** post edited **


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Post Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 10:10 am 
 

enshook wrote:As someone said, "just ship the product," which is being done. I went by tonight and he's about half way through.


No he's already done as he put here in no uncertain terms here on February 22:

http://p085.ezboard.com/fpiedpiperpubli ... 41&stop=48

Question:
Galbrechin wrote: So all orders are now in the mail?


Answer:
The Pied PiperRJK wrote:As of today, all past orders are, but not those reeceived in the last week.


Or are you saying that he lied when he wrote that... AGAIN?

You wonder why people are pissed off?  They are sick of being lied to, over and over and over again.  Rob has told us at least 4 different times now that these items where either in the processed of being shipped or had already shipped and using your very own statement as fact, only roughly 50% of his orders still haven't been shipped yet.  WHY????

enshook wrote:As for it snowing somehow being a BS issue for some of you, try finding a plow that will remove a 6 foot high city produced embankment at the end of a one end alley in a relatively remote industrial area, with a new owner who is apparently an absent landlord. It took two weeks to even get a plow that would agree it could move it and for double the price in order to get them all the way down from the far north end of the city. One plow even arrived and refused.


For 7 full weeks???? Again from Rob's own words not mine on January 22nd:

http://piedpiperpublishing.yuku.com/top ... ealth.html

The Pied PiperRJK wrote:I have been receiving lots of inquiries about the outstanding orders, which is to be expected. I am way behind with these and I apologize.

My doctor ordered me to slow down and go at a certain speed, which I am far outstripping at this time, betting upon what used to be a good constitution of mine.

I do find myself sleeping extra long and taking more naps as of the last week as I have been pushing getting so many things done.

I just ask the supporters of PPP to add a little more patience as I am mailing orders about every three days and all of them up until a month ago will be fulfilled in the next 10-14 days.

That's the best I can do. My energy has returned, but if not properly nursed with me being a one-man show here, I'll be in trouble again. I do hope everyone understands and my apologies for the unforseen health issues that have overtaken me, but I'm working through it with help from others.

Rob Kuntz


enshook wrote:Le me assure you that the people complaining in this thread are mostly not the people with deep pockets, if any of them are present at all.

This is the most asshole statement I have read in a long time.  First off and foremost its completely presumptuous with not a single fact to back it up.  Secondly its utterly wrong.  I personally am on the hook in this mess for $170 this go around and roughly another $200 for the previous 2 modules put out.  Aneoth on his own is on the hook for at least $300 for his 2 LE copies.  Aside from that when I look at the sponsor lists I know and could potentially have a very strong say with about 75% of those people.  Do you honestly think that with this debacle as it stands right now, along with this arrogant presumptuous tripe that you are spouting in conjunction with my own and several other subtle nudgings, that these people are going to continue give Rob money??? If you do you are completely and utterly deluded.   On top of that, are you the one ponying up my refund?  Let me know and I'll give you my home address, since you seem to think that my contributions are small.  Its only $170 right?

Oh yeah, and one last thing.  Why is it again that Rob hasn't paid his people yet?


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Post Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 10:27 am 
 

Thankfully I did not have the money to purchase a copy of Bottle City, but I did enjoy the earlier work (CotSK and ToB).

From having read through the messages here and elsewhere this whole situation has turned into a less than funny situation.

D&D and collecting is supposed to be fun.

Sadly the Rob Kuntz legacy from this situation is that he has officially put the FU in fun!


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Post Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 11:08 am 
 

Deadlord39 wrote:Enscrook is obviously a troll. Probably RJK himself.

** post edited **


enshook = Eric Nelson Shook.  Pretty simple to figure that out.

No one is happy about the situation and Rob does owe everyone that pre-purchased Bottle City an apology for the lateness and even a partial refund would be nice, but this post from you is absolutely sickening.  If you want to send this classless crap to someone, please do it in the form of a PM or you can go over to Rob's Pied Piper boards and do it there.


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Post Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 11:43 am 
 

I don't know a damn thing about fantasy writing, but I do know snow.  That story is bullshit.  Here's why.

A good shovel = $20.  A kid to use that shovel = $10 an hour, at most.  (Less if he's a fan of fantasy fiction and you happen to have some published work handy.)

The point is, RJK could and should have asked or paid for help.

When you make a commitment, you're responsible for seeing it through.  Period.  You don't have to do everything yourself, but you do have to make sure it all gets done.  That's where he failed, and continues to fail, plain and simple.  

"Enshook" dropped by the place the other day and apparently whistled off with his copy happily.  Can't such a close friend be counted upon to help you meet your committment when you're sick and snowed in, and thereby salvage your reputation?  The time he wasted posting that lame series of explanations alone could have put 50-100 copies in the post.

The last thing he should be focusing on is writing.  I think that ship has sailed.

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Post Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 11:43 am 
 

Since some people here are bringing the "discussion" to other places around the net, I felt the need to drop by and express my thoughts.

While I support the consumer's right to complain about a product -- be it quality or in this case, late delivery, I was taken aback at the level of nastiness that some here have lowered themselves to.

I think some of our members  have done a discredit to their person as well as, done a real disservice to this site and its members.

Me, I ordered the BC module and expect the product to be delivered now that Rob is somewhat back on his feet.

But frankly, I care less about a paper module or money than I do about the health and well being of a fellow human being. One who has given quite to bit to this industry and continues to work hard at contributing.

I've purchased Cairn, Tower and the Living Room. All products were excellently produced and delivered in a very timely fashion for a very reasonable price. So to me, Rob has been stellar in running PPP up until this unfortunate disaster with regard to his health and well being.

So my feeling is, I'll cut him mucho slack and be a little patient and I know I'll get my module.


:?


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Post Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 11:45 am 
 

Deadlord39 wrote:Enscrook is obviously a troll. Probably RJK himself.

** post edited **

Umm Frank...uh...ouch. 8O

Can't we just keep the insults and debate NON sexually insulting in nature?  It just adds an entire other dimension when you are bringng orientation into it...well, unless it's Coug...

And wishing death on someone is a bit extreme...again, unless we are talking Coug.... :wink:

I think we just just stick to the facts and concentrate on somewhat civil debate.  I'm as pissed as anyone, and I understand the level of frustration at this point has reached 11, but let's step back a bit if this is the level of discourse we are going to engage in....

Mike B.


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Post Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 11:48 am 
 

Sorry, I just get insanely pissed when people defend crooks. That's part of the problem with this country.


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Post Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 11:49 am 
 

Badmike wrote:Umm Frank...uh...ouch. 8O


I think we all know Frank well enough to understand that this just means he is mildly irritated.

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Post Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 11:56 am 
 

bclarkie wrote:This is the most asshole statement I have read in a long time.  First off and foremost its completely presumptuous with not a single fact to back it up.  Secondly its utterly wrong.  I personally am on the hook in this mess for $170 this go around and roughly another $200 for the previous 2 modules put out.  Aneoth on his own is on the hook for at least $300 for his 2 LE copies.  Aside from that when I look at the sponsor lists I know and could potentially have a very strong say with about 75% of those people.  Do you honestly think that with this debacle as it stands right now, along with this arrogant presumptuous tripe that you are spouting in conjunction with my own and several other subtle nudgings, that these people are going to continue give Rob money??? If you do you are completely and utterly deluded.   On top of that, are you the one ponying up my refund?  Let me know and I'll give you my home address, since you seem to think that my contributions are small.  Its only $170 right?

Oh yeah, and one last thing.  Why is it again that Rob hasn't paid his people yet?


I can't add much to this.  I would point out to people coming here to defend Rob, please take the time to read this thread from Page Five onwards...a lot of the issues have already been discussed here in depth.  Just saying Rob is a nice guy, or he was sick, or there was a lot of snow, have already been discounted because of one over-riding issue:  the absolute LACK of any type of communication from PPP to the buyers regarding these issues, which had to be dribbled out third-hand instead of confronted full on.  Calls for patience or lengthy explanations are NOT going to be dealt with at this point with anything other than rank skepticism.  It's all old ground that I would rather not cover any longer. The one overriding issue is "When is the product going to ship?"  That's all. Everything else at this point is irrelevant. Well that and the shoddy way Jason and Jim were treated, which I also hope has a resolution.

Mike B.


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Post Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 12:01 pm 
 

Rhuvein wrote:Since some people here are bringing the "discussion" to other places around the net, I felt the need to drop by and express my thoughts.

While I support the consumer's right to complain about a product -- be it quality or in this case, late delivery, I was taken aback at the level of nastiness that some here have lowered themselves to.

I think some of our members  have done a discredit to their person as well as, done a real disservice to this site and its members.

Me, I ordered the BC module and expect the product to be delivered now that Rob is somewhat back on his feet.

But frankly, I care less about a paper module or money than I do about the health and well being of a fellow human being. One who has given quite to bit to this industry and continues to work hard at contributing.

I've purchased Cairn, Tower and the Living Room. All products were excellently produced and delivered in a very timely fashion for a very reasonable price. So to me, Rob has been stellar in running PPP up until this unfortunate disaster with regard to his health and well being.

So my feeling is, I'll cut him mucho slack and be a little patient and I know I'll get my module.


:?


Rhu

with all due respect here, i agree with what youre saying, but again i do think you have actually missed the main point folk have been driving at with regards to this whole thing....

if you are ill....or whatever the situation, ask for help

in the end, someone who is dissatisfied, has every right to advocate such. its up to the individual concerned to defend themselves and resolve the situation. as this hasnt happened, it has escalated and will prb continue to do so until the matter HAS been resolved.

Al


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Post Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 12:03 pm 
 

I'm really getting tired of people jumping to RJK's defense. If you're defending him you really haven't been paying attention. Mucho, mucho, mucho slack has been cut in the case of illness. Rather than even a weak attempt at reconciliation, he's actually lied to his consumers on what, four occasions know?

If he is unable to meet his responsibilities then he shouldn't have them. The long string of excuses, refusal of help, continued lies (He's still sitting on about half his orders according to Eric Shook, who recently visited), and unwillingness to admit any kind of fault over the matter is indefensible at this point. Its apparent that he has exhibited similar behavior in the past. It's really not even about the money now, more like basic human responsiblity.


Hmm, no, I don't have a gambling problem, I'm winning, and winning is not a problem. That's like saying Michael Jordan has a basketball problem, or Def Leppard has an awesomeness problem. So why don't y'all pour some sugar on that?


Last edited by Cattledog on Wed Mar 05, 2008 12:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.
  

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Post Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 12:03 pm 
 

Hi All,

unfortunately, if everyone is "politely irritated" then the minor crooks of this world will get away with many crimes.

It is only when people get "seriously p*ssed" that those minor crooks have a tendency to become a bit more responsible.

I think that PPP has it coming.

If they are at Indy, and I havent received my module by then, then I will have a few choice words to say, and, obviously, I'll be asking for a refund.

Cheers,
Malc

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Post Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 12:06 pm 
 

enshook wrote:
As for Kenzer, they haven't been waiting 5 years. When the second half of the manuscript was given to them years ago, they had already had this other author finish it. As to how the communication problem occurred, let's just note that both were at fault. It wasn't as if Kenzer couldn't have exercised several methods of contacting Rob through intermediaries to express this change. Rob was significantly surprised and shocked. He would have preferred to see his version of it entirely hit the presses. I believe that half of the manuscript is now owned by a collector who frequents here.


Thanks for taking the time!


Well that's not what Kenzer himself says.  They were still waiting for him to turn in his promised manuscript after they had published the book and it was being sold.  Scroll down to the bottom:

http://necromancergames.yuku.com/topic/ ... ml?page=10

But yes you are right the whole misunderstanding could have been avoided if Kenzer had contacted Rob using that most ancient means of communication - send forth Intermediaries!  Maybe the Swiss embassy could have sent word in time?  They could have certainly helped with skiers and St. Bernards getting through the snow to rescue Bottled City.

:lol:

enshook wrote:
Thanks for taking the time!


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Post Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 12:11 pm 
 

enshook wrote:
As for it snowing somehow being a BS issue for some of you, try finding a plow that will remove a 6 foot high city produced embankment at the end of a one end alley in a relatively remote industrial area, with a new owner who is apparently an absent landlord. It took two weeks to even get a plow that would agree it could move it and for double the price in order to get them all the way down from the far north end of the city. One plow even arrived and refused.



Those damnable plowmen!

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