carry fwd np

enshook wrote:As gamers we love to analyze things in the absence of information. Analysis is a large part of what gaming is all about! And as well, as the industry is now so small, we feel a strong stake in it. This would be especially true among the old guard here on The Acaeum. I feel the same way. It would be nice to see PPP having continued success, and because there is business involved and principles seem to be failing, it is frustrating.

Of course, some can afford to be more patient than others; while even others are more restrained in their appraisals simply due to having been around for so long that these things come as no surprise or shock.

I recall TSR being accused of screwing their printers month after month after month, totaling years, actually. But no one much remembers that now, because we have the positive and wonderful artifacts of its productive years, in spite of this negative. In fact, now that I think of it, if PPP goes out of business due to Rob's incapacity, his collectibles skyrocket soon after, don't they? Of course, this is a mere speculation. I'm not that familiar with the market here.

But I do see speculation going on in this thread, of another sort, and some of it hasn't been all that pretty, naturally. People fill in a blank with nuts and bolts. Cry the glass half empty, etc.

I'd just like to look at a positive business case concerning Rob's recent success: his continuing business with Eric Mona has always been supported by Eric's remarkable even-handedness, and a willingness to negotiate fluidly and fairly with Rob. There has never been an attempt by Eric to wrest creative control from Rob. Thus, it has been a very good and continuing business relationship, which Rob delights in having. He values Eric Mona's aid and contribution to his successes greatly.

The same goes for Allan. I know firsthand that Rob feels tremendously indebted to Allan's cheer, excellent advise and immense help in crafting PPP product. If it were not for Allan, PPP probably wouldn't exist, but that doesn't mean Allan has any control by which he should be held responsible for PPP's recent problems.

Given Rob's health issues, which Allan is at a loss to fix, and which are certainly more than just a single issue with his lungs, each of us needs to fill in the picture a bit more on their own. I can't do that for you, but I can suggest a direction to go with it. For instance, add the dour spirit that this kind of thing would contribute to anyone's daily functioning.

Some of us in this thread have naturally expressed the expectancy that if we were terribly sick, then we would engender the help of others.

But, would you if you were Rob? Now, I don't mean to be mean here. I don't even mean to be the least bit irritable sounding. I'm just trying to help out with this a little bit, to make it sensible to each of us, much in the same way it's sensible to me after knowing Rob well after all these years. I find very little fault with his actions, knowing him as I do and knowing the circumstances.

Under lighter conditions an offer of help would be MORE likely accepted. In fact, as of this last year he had intended to have me come over every other weekend to help pack orders as he upped his writing production. However, to accept this under the current conditions, when I offered it in December, and again recently, it would have been like giving into the notion of a downhill ride. You simply cannot expect someone like Rob to accept such a thing. I felt at that time I shouldn't push him, since he seemed hopefull of an impending recovery. Are you going to say to Rob, "No! You must accept my help. What will they say about your refusing it?" Well, the reaction on your part might be, "Come on in!" But, on Rob's part,  you can see the inner dialog as he thanks you dearly and graciously, and then experience no surprise at all as the stoic that he is asserts his immanent recovery.

I know when it's time to get intrusive. That was not it. I was convinced he was close to giving it a heave-ho because I could see that HE was convinced. We're not talking about a willful abandonment of his duties here.

Add to this picture a *very* private life, and add to that an intensely strong set of religious beliefs.

Even when not sick, Rob's apartments would not be ready for a visit on any one day, since his work is strewn about in his acts of creativity. Things would be everywhere accumulated over months, like a Hobbit having out with it all, all at once. You would hardly be welcome in that space until after it was reassembled! But, the rub is, a sick Rob would be incapable of reassembly. Having been a past room mate, I offered to help with that, as well. But, again, that would be more likely if he were well, for the same reasons above. Would you insist such under conditions of accusing him of being close to his deathbed? Hardly. In fact, one hopes he does do it himself, since it would be a sign of a greater recovery.

I'm sure we've all had things we couldn't get to while sick. Absolutely. I'm sure we've all had business only we could be trusted to do and do right.

In fact, I will admit herein that I'm absolutely certain that I've denied myself help for YEARS, never recognizing that my crippling anxiety after the Navy wasn't being dealt with successfully, since it kept recurring. Only recently did I submit myself to the VA to discover the real problem and have it treated. I suffered for decades, because we all construct normalcy as best we can, and it often never occurs to us that our most stable actions are preventing us from having it easier in life.

Perhaps that's because we all want simple answers, black and white comings and goings, such as is so satisfying in our game worlds, or when we find moral clarity in the otherworld. In fact, we needn't be particularly stubborn since it is in all of our nature to insist that we KNOW the answers. It's true in sickness, and it's true in health, even while posting to the Acaeum. We are not always right when we think we know a thing. Not even about ourselves.

A last thing I'd like to point out, in the spirit of gaming.

Robilar was not a solo adventurer.

You've all accepted that stalwartness in this mythical Greyhawk character.

I have only to add that what made it mythical wasn't something brought about by the mere retelling of stories. Those things that made it so are able to be found in Rob's character.

That is, until it became someone else's intellectual property and thus it also became their job of characterization, at which time they freely wrote him in for something he wasn't....

.....

...........

Ahem....

another eric?? +thx thoughtful post + personal insight

That borders on the most ridiculous statement I've ever seen. Let me fill in the blanks YOU seem to have left void:

1. He took peoples' money.
2. He offered up several consecutive excuses.
3. He never ONCE updated people personally about the situation.
4. He sent modules that other people had ALREADY PAID FOR to a reseller. For money.
5. He's a swindler.

That fills in the puzzle perfectly. No speculation at all.
Those are plain facts. I'm pissed at him, and I didn't even buy a fucking module! Assholes like that are a blight on the game, and if I didn't view the vast majority of people as bleating sheep I would be dumbfounded at how ANYONE could defend those actions under ANY circumstances. Go defend his cheating ass on Dragonsfoot, there are plenty of other sheep to mill around with there.

It really has been a train wreck (as widely predicted).

The way I see it is that PPP have produced an item that is being sold purely on the reputation of the writer, who has subsequently (and this is my opinion) made a concerted effort to flush that reputation down the toilet.

I don't doubt any of the health/car/snow excuses, but they are just that - excuses, and even a casual reader of this and other threads will know that these have worn rather thin.

My advise - similar to many here - Be a man, apologise, and sort it out now - not in a little while or when you can be bothered, or when the unwashed plebians stop groaning - NOW.

Handled correctly PPP could have been a license to print money - there are a lot of guys out there with deep pockets and a true love of the roots of the hobby. Alienating your core audience seems remarkably stupid, and potentially suicidal in a business sense.

(If Coug had have been in a position to pull a scam (thank you Aneoth!) like this there would have been a queue outside his door waiting to knock his head off - and rightly so (again, my opinion))

mandalaymoon wrote:Forget the apology, just ship the product... and not to NKG but to all of us who preordered because we wanted to support the project and read it first.  Just ship the friggin' module already, it's not that friggin' hard to do.

But it snowed you Luddite - know the angst of the truly creative (I'm just being mean now - sorry!!!)

g026r wrote:

Go-Captain Suzdal wrote:Hey, gain a customer for AGP... Tell me what it stands for, so I can look them up .

Adventure Games Publishing.  (Hope I got that right.)  Check the Judges Guild sub-forum for more information.

Forestalled again by that elusive wily goat -- I've got to stop napping after dinner!

AGP is the gentleman (James Mishler) who produced Tel Qa / XXXI; he often posts here.  I recommend checking his work out
here.

And a good review here.

islestrike wrote:As an exercise tally up Robilar's publishing credits (mostly collaborations with other authors) and divide by 33 years (Greyhawk was published in 75).  That gives you the approx. time you need to wait on average before you can start your beeyatch fest.     Time goes up dramatically if you only count fully authored works so be warned!

Cheers!

Please do this math for me - I can't be bothered!

I wasn't "slamming" what you would call the "evil empire" of TSR. I'm quite fond of the company's early years, of which I'm referring to. I wasn't displeased with the company until much later, but that has little to do with this post or my point.

My point was that even large companies have difficulties with paying out and balancing their books.

What I do take exception with is this notion that Rob is a cheat or a swindler.

As someone said, "just ship the product," which is being done. I went by tonight and he's about half way through.

Rob's hands were shaking anytime I saw him holding an item at shoulder height with his elbow on his knee or table. Each package takes 15 minutes to package. Ten or twelve in perfect health.

It appears his health is much better than last I saw him and this should make us all feel good, especially considering other unfortunate passings this week.

Now that he's back on his feet, and given the fact that this sickness almost put him entirely out of business, Rob has a tremendous amount of work to do. He's forced to intersperse order fulfillment with resuming his business and resuming writing. I can't do any of those things for him.

As for this notion that he sold all the BC modules to Noble Knight Games, I can only wonder how you can so assuredly conclude such a thing? NKG also had to wait this out, since they're an equal customer, just like all the others. However, being they always pre-order in mass, they get their orders in the first batch going out, just as others like them also get first orders. It's always been this way. It just wasn't noticed previously, because orders went out more orderly and promptly.

As for it snowing somehow being a BS issue for some of you, try finding a plow that will remove a 6 foot high city produced embankment at the end of a one end alley in a relatively remote industrial area, with a new owner who is apparently an absent landlord. It took two weeks to even get a plow that would agree it could move it and for double the price in order to get them all the way down from the far north end of the city. One plow even arrived and refused.

At one point the snow did present a problem and in mentioning it it was taken out of context as if it were an excuse explaining the entire problem. What it was was Rob trying to will himself back to health and expressing optimism about getting back to work, and then addressing this roadblock as what he conceived of as the only immediate thing in his way. It wasn't.

I think I've just given a very real picture of how it is that you get to sarcastically deride the point of the snow issue. Point taken. Product needs to go out. But it's just not the case that the snow wasn't offered up in good faith. That derisive picture simply doesn't depict the realities.

This has been a terrible winter in this area, near the lake, especially. The city of Racine's snow removal in the residential area kept me down to 3 or 4 MPH for most of the winter before I could get to the main roads, being the thaws and snows created a sheet of ice 6 inches deep that the plows couldn't do a thing about, but there were holes throughout them from when they partially slushed. I then had to pay 159 bucks to replace the broken band on my gas tank due to this. The garages are starting to rake in suspension repairs. If you don't think a harsh series of snows are a big problem for a man who was wheezing in December and doubling over and coughing his lungs out when exposed to cold air, merely in a slightly colder room in his own house, then you're just being stubborn.

As for Kenzer, they haven't been waiting 5 years. When the second half of the manuscript was given to them years ago, they had already had this other author finish it. As to how the communication problem occurred, let's just note that both were at fault. It wasn't as if Kenzer couldn't have exercised several methods of contacting Rob through intermediaries to express this change. Rob was significantly surprised and shocked. He would have preferred to see his version of it entirely hit the presses. I believe that half of the manuscript is now owned by a collector who frequents here.

I'm sure others will have another version of the Kenzer story, and I wouldn't think it false. That's the way these things always are. One side's version is always incomplete, and to know fault of their own. I'm only able to speak from one end. But why debate it? My version is merely to point out that the situation wasn't that stark. It was more complicated than that.

I think this statement is quite true: "Handled correctly PPP could have been a license to print money - there are a lot of guys out there with deep pockets and a true love of the roots of the hobby. Alienating your core audience seems remarkably stupid, and potentially suicidal in a business sense."

Le me assure you that the people complaining in this thread are mostly not the people with deep pockets, if any of them are present at all. These people order copies of special edition books years in advance of publication, like those reprints of Clarke Ashton Smith's works that we're all waiting for to be produced, which illustrates their patience and understanding. In fact, several of them have posted or emailed that they wouldn't mind being put to the end of the line in the roll out of orders if Rob is having health problems.

If you believe that alienating your core would be stupid, as I can assure you Rob also believes, then you are forced to ask yourself under what conditions might this kind of thing occur. I gave my real assessment on my friend's health in December. I've just expressed relief at his better comparative health. Frankly, I was worried he was on his deathbed in December. Rob had great success with PPP up to his sickness. Why would he toss that away? I alluded to such in my last post.

As to these claims:

"2. He offered up several consecutive excuses.
3. He never ONCE updated people personally about the situation."

What you're saying is that his supposed "excuses" were NOT updates? I'm confused. Or, could it be that you heard from others what you took to be excuses, and then attacked them like you did me here, because they didn't satisfy your expectancy that Rob should rise from his pneumatic condition, come hacking, coughing and wheezing to his CRT and reply to you personally? People with the flu don't go to work. People possibly dying should? I didn't even get personal emails or telephone calls. Neither did Allan.

"4. He sent modules that other people had ALREADY PAID FOR to a reseller. For money."

This last one is a remarkable and blatantly assumptive and strong claim. I've addressed it above and frankly, demand your apology for such an incorrect claim. Call NKG yourself and they'll confirm they have only bought the amount they previously pre-ordered. Or, you could just make more spurious and unsupportable, speculative, claims.

I know that Rob regrets his situation and is fully intent on making good all orders. He is returning to his work in a continuing upswing. He has a bit more than half the orders out. I personally saw a large number of packages completely addressed and sealed, as well as the assembly line of the remainder. I left with my personal copy. It's a good product.

I'd like to say consternation is well understandable, and Rob will address this. However, I don't believe calling a sick man a swindler and expecting him to have done anything other than what he has doing in recovering would be sensible, since it merely follows a bad situation with more negativity.

Now, I've done my part. I've addressed all the issues exhaustively, and sensitively. But, I have nothing more to say in here. Past experiences with message boards have taught me that more posts will only produce yet another bout of posts that nay-say the points I've made, as if I were making excuses or defending what is a very regrettable situation.

My two posts here have been to say, "Hey, the guy's been down hard. Give him a break. He'll be OK, product will go out and is going out. The module looks sharp! Things will get better. Always look on the bright side of life!" And, moreover, I'm posting for his fans to read this and take comfort in having a good explanation from someone close to Rob who cares as much as they do.

That's positive. What else should one do in a world short lived with limited prospects for the expression of creativity? Today it's clear we should all only have time left for being positive. That's not an excuse or a paint over. It's merely a strong suggestion. I say it's strong because it's in keeping with the positive.

Thanks for taking the time!

i appreciate what it is that you are trying to say.

i will just pipe a little on the matter. this whole scenario doesnt affect me at all, so i am utterly neutral in it.

however that said, for me, when someone makes a promise, thats how it is. when someone breaks it repeatedly, thats a whole different matter.

again, i have said before, i have more respect for someone who will speak for themselves in person and i think i would speak for most on that.

nobody has a problem being told "How the land lies", but why cant the original source say that themselves?

anyway, either way, i just hope it all works out for everyone, Rob, the paying customers and the fans.

Al

I really love this...Not only do we get second hand excuse making but according to Shook, RJK still hasn't sent all the material out!

Look, in the real world the rest of us have to account for our actions. Many of us have gotten second chances or even third chances when we've messed up. However, we've gotten those other opportunities when we've accepted fault and apologized meanwhile doing all we can to rectify the issue.

So far all we have from RJK are his exceedingly responsible friends/compatriots at PPP propping him up with his dubious excuses. I've been sick, had all sorts of automobile problems, broken limbs, rattlesnake bites, etc...Hard times happen to us all but not every three months unless we have severe personality disorders or illegal/perscription drug addiction. (I'm expecting to hear that soon    )

This isn't a single issue we can all say is a "one time thing." He's done this on several occasions to nearly everyone willing to give him a chance or a second chance. Assistance past this point is codependent enabling at its finest.

So, Where is my copy?
Wait, what am I complaining about? Shouldn't the gaming world just cut this guy a 17th break?