grodog wrote:
I'm trying to stay out of this, and finding it hard to do so.  Not because I want to defend Rob's business practices, but because I can see over the hump of this issue into six months down the road, where things look really really good.  I hope.  At this point, how rosy that picture is or isn't depends on what Rob can do to make emends with the fans, if anything.  

Suggestions along those lines would be very appreciated:  what could Rob do to make things right (beyond the obvious of "apologize and the get the books in everyone's hands")?

Allan;

Since you asked on the open forum instead of Pming you I'll lay it out for everyone to see:

1. An open apology from Rob to his fans that mistakes were made. No more excuses about illnesses, not being able to reach the post office, car theft, too much snow, etc. I'm not saying these did or didn't have an effect on the mailing of the items, but there comes a time when you just need to admit "I screwed up" and move on without falling back on excuses, applicable or not.  I know this sounds obvious, as you said, but up until now the lack of communication has been probably THE main reason PPP is in danger of never being a viable company again. Rob could have headed this off MONTHS ago with a public apology.  It's amazing what kind of slack people will cut you when you admit you messed up.  Reading between the lines to me it seems rather obvious what REALLY happened to prevent the Bottle City mailings...I would urge someone to fess up and basically let us know "it won't happen again".  Further evasions will just lead to more suspicions and bad feelings.

2.  All preordered Bottle City and other product needs to ship out IMMEDIATELY.  Not next week, not next month, not "sometime before Gencon".  IMMEDIATELY.  This needs to be THE HIGHEST PRIORITY  item in the agenda, getting paid for product in fan's hands.

3.  The presence of an actual company structure that does NOT include Rob in an position except as an idea man or designer.  Unfortunately, after this fiasco it will be a long, long, time, if ever, before Rob's word is ever taken seriously in the industry.  The new structure will just have to deal with that, and so will Rob, by taking a subordinate position. I'm also hoping the "money men" in this deal with be respected figures in the industry that will immediately inspire trust in the new company.  If the company structure was to stay the same (i.e., Rob's in charge still) I would probably never spend a cent on PPP products.

4.  No more pre-orders for at least a few projects....once again, Rob has lost the trust of the uber-fan and must regain it before limited editions, runic copies, or whatever are solicited.   At this point I doubt the money would be flowing in for this sort of release anyway.

5.  A STRICT release schedule. This cannot be overemphasized. There is absolutely no slack to be cut here due to the shoddy performance of PPP over the last year.  If another project is "late", any progress that might have been made to win back fans will all be lost.

6. Constant communication between PPP and the fans. This was perhaps the lowest point of the entire saga the last year, the fact that days, weeks and months would go by with NO news of orders or product.  Weekly updates on the website are a must to continued good will in the community.  It goes without saying that a company spokesman position is a must.

7.  Modernizing the company structure. No one wants to hear anymore about how Rob can't get to the post office to buy stamps. It is the 21st century, it is perfectly possible to do all aspects of mailing from your house, as I have been doing for years.  There should be no Luddite-type excuses why something isn't getting done, if Rob can't handle it then give it to someone that knows how.  But when you yourself don't have a car (I sold my auto recently) and yet somehow manage to mail out over 100 packages a month, you have VERY little sympathy for someone else who seems to be stymied by this development.


8.  While Rob's ideas are obviously the main thrust behind PPP, a company that is dependent on ONE individual is surely courting disaster should anything happen to that person.....see the last year of PPP.  If Rob can't put the finishing touches on something, then someone else needs to have the authority to step in and either finish the project, OR publish similar projects of their own.  Allan, not to kiss your ass or anything, but personally I'd be just as excited seeing something YOU wrote as any of Rob's stuff,  knowing your dedication to the game and old school gaming. Hell, if your multi-level version of Castle Greyhawk is in publishable form let's see it, call it "Castle Greyhold" or whatever and roll it out as a supermodule...I'd buy it!   Have a few other creator owned projects laying around for those times that Rob is running behind, and put them out during the spaces between Rob's classic stuff. Honestly the CAS1 and CAS2 were really nothing special IMO; I bought them to support the industry. Bottle City was the real attraction for me because of the historical aspects. Stick Rob on rehashing old Castle Greyhawk levels and other classic D&D stuff only.

It's probably obvious that fans of old school dungeons just want quality nostalgia items, whether they are Robs are someone elses. Have Rob stamp a "Approved by Rob Kuntz" on the cover and as long as it meets the standards of, say, Maure Castle, people will want to see it.  

9.  Make amends. I've mentioned before on this thread that alienating the fan base of a niche of a niche product is probably the closest thing to business suicide there is.  You are going to HAVE to do something to win fans back, many who have long memories and are not inclined at this point to cut PPP or Rob a break (I'm one of them). I would suggest basically a "freebie", for everyone on the mailing list, or everyone who ordered a Bottle City, basically the long-suffering fans.   It could take the form of a special publication, autographed item, maybe along the lines of The Living Room.  It could be a free download even. Just something to say "thank you" to the long suffering fans who had to wait and wait the last year.  It should be something unique and perhaps even valuable.  

To put my suggestions in perspective, there is a reason MLB pitcher Andy Pettite is being given a free pass, while Roger Clemens is about to be hounded out of the game, when both are guilty of the exact same offense. A little humility and eating a little crow can go a long way.  Rob may not feel like anything was done wrong; fine, but if he tosses out that attitude it truly will be the finish of PPP.  Whether or not he believes he was in the right or wrong he better humble himself if he has any hope of continuing his career...I honestly think it's that serious for his future.

I would also offer the suggestion that no matter what the problem that arises, if any, from the newly structured company, that someone just "deals with it". The tolerance for excuses of ANY sort are about nil at this point. Seriously, anything short of a natural disaster destroying the entire city where PPP is based is going to be greeted with skepticism and will probably finish off what very tiny part of good will might still exist.  To put it bluntly no one gives a rat's ass anymore about anything sort of death or absolute destruction.

Anyway IMO those steps would be a good start.

Mike B.

bclarkie wrote:
In conjuction with no less than 4 different proclamations of, "The items are on the way!!11!!one!!1!!eleven!1!":

http://p085.ezboard.com/Note-on-Outstan ... =169.topic

http://p085.ezboard.com/Bottle-City-Fia ... =167.topic

http://p085.ezboard.com/fpiedpiperpubli ... 41&stop=58

http://p085.ezboard.com/fpiedpiperpubli ... 1&stop=100

http://p085.ezboard.com/fpiedpiperpubli ... 41&stop=48

Yet, guess what? A substanitally large protion of those orders still haven't been shipped yet including those who spent the most on it.   To make matters even worse, Noble Knight Games got a shit load of copies and sold and delivered them to their customers in some cases weeks before folks who bought directly from the source have recieved thiers.   You know outside of just disappearing completely off the map never to be seen or heard from again, I am not sure how it could have been much worse than it has been done.     And again, this is coming from me who preached patience several months ago.

True nothing that Rob says can be trusted anymore. Which is why a spokesman for the "new" PPP is a must, and it has to be someone whose track record and rep are spotless. Otherwise nothing has changed.

Mike B.

If a multinational like ebay treated their customers like this.................Oh wait they do already   (j/k)

i'm not really upset.  i'm a little disappointed that i won't get a chance to see the product for some time (away from home for a long period due to work).  i just want to make sure that i WILL recieve the LE copy i paid for such a long, long time ago

Just had a chance to sit down and look through it.  I'm really pleased with it!  Aside from being just the kind of adventure I prefer, the look and feel of the booklet itself are really nice.  The reproduction of the original hand-drawn maps was a great touch.  It gives the whole adventure a truly classic feel.  

Looking forward to running it for my kids!  

I'm still waiting on my SE copy. I'm starting to doubt that I'll ever receive it. And here I thought I was helping someone out by pre-ordering...

As for the business models... I hate to say it but given the information made available from several sources it won't work with RJK. He is displaying some severe personality disorders that are going to keep popping up again and again as they have in the past. In fact placing more deadlines and oversight will probably drive him to even more excuse making.

I agree with badmike, Allan write your own stuff and stop holding up RJK. I'm sure they're are other folks out there as well to write equal or better stuff anyway. You've got to get tired of making excuses for this guy too. Best to move on...FWIW

grodog wrote:
I'll collect the feedback from here and the other boards, and I'll talk about it with Rob next weekend at the latest (I'm assuming that I'll hear from him this week, before my trip to WI, but Sunday's it one way or the other), and it'll be up to Rob to report back with the action plan.  

Your words here tend to show he's still the same ole Robillar playing his man on the mountain routine so nothing is really changing here.  Why do you need to be the one to collect the feedback and talk to him about it?  He's plenty capable of signing onto forums and talking like the big daddy each time he starts anew so why is he so incapable of reading the situation for himself and doing something about it now?  And don't say he doesn't have an internet connection or its dialup or something.  You can't have it both ways and say you are a small press publisher that sells online and takes payplay and yet not have two coins to rub together to connect online and see what it going on.

He doesn't have to make things right by me though.  I bought cotsk and tob through NK because I never trusted ordering anything from PPP even when the books were out.  I was going to buy bc too but when I heard people who worked on it didn't get paid I said forget it.  Plus if he wants to sell through NK and places he should have financed the bloody thing with his own money.  I'm thinking any day now NK is going to get a resupply of bc before people get their pre-orders.  That's how low PPP has sunk on the totem for me.  Right now James at AGP is a good place to start if people want to support some good old style RPG work.  His past work speaks for itself and he is backing up his current adventure journal with a cancellation and money back policy.  There's also Expeditious Retreat and their OSRIC adventures.  They've put out 3 so far with great artwork by Stefen Poag and Brad McDevitt and a 4th module has just been released.  Here's the link:

http://www.xrpshop.citymax.com/page/page/3906568.htm

Pod Caverns of the Sinister Shroom was a great concept and better IMO as an underground cavern romp than cotsk.  Even if you don't think so it still compares well considering it was written by a relative unknown while D&D's first son as he calls himself gave us something not much different.  Read them both for yourselves and decide which has the cooler ideas!

Cheers!

Xaxie is right, with one exception: I think that the name of Pied Piper Publishing is forever ruined. I didn't prepay for anything, and I will not buy anything from any company that has anything to do with that scammer. I am sure I'm not the only one.

jasonw1239 wrote:Hell, I think even Walmart carries them.

Far simpler, I think, to simply kill the electrician in his sleep. With a ballista.