RJK's Bottle City updates • Page 8 • Collecting General • The Acaeum

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RJK's Bottle City updates
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Plaag
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Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 3:47 pm

Necromancer Games, Kenzer & Company, Troll Lords, now his fans: Take upfront money, not deliver on promises.

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Deadlord
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Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 6:01 pm

I've seen a pattern in the past where people tend to cut famous gaming figures WAAAAAAAAAY too much slack. They can be greedy and underhanded, too. As a matter of fact, they are MORE likely to be greedy and underhanded because........................ people tend to cut them slack.
If this was an eBay account with this track record, this forum would have long ago tagged it as a cheater and blocked it.

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Xaxaxe
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Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 7:06 pm

Deadlord39 wrote:I've seen a pattern in the past where people tend to cut famous gaming figures WAAAAAAAAAY too much slack.

I agree with this 1,000 percent. It's one of the reasons, in fact, that I never got too excited about the first release (the Cairn one, right?) ... it seemed like a vanity project more than anything else.

As to the current situation, I'm an interested observer. I do not have a dog in this fight. I hope it all works out â€” I sincerely hope that Rob's deal turns out to be just severe allergies and that all of his customers get the items they've paid for â€” but I can't help but wonder what the fallout will be if these orders go unfilled. I suspect it will help put an end to much of the automatic goodwill that industry "names" seem to get from many gamers ... especially if those "names" are holding their hands out for money. A cynical view, I know, but I suspect that such will be the case.

Deadlord
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Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 7:40 pm

I don't see that happening. Look at the facts:

1. This "illness" has been going on for many months.
2. Rob is well aware of the delay, and has had multiple offers for help.
3. He has a track record of taking the money and running.

Either he knows he's gonna croak, and doesn't care about anything, or he intends to walk off with the cash. Either way, I have to put a checkmark in the scumbag column. Hell, he doesn't even have the decency to post an update here.

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Badmike
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Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 7:44 pm

Xaxaxe wrote: I do not have a dog in this fight. I hope it all works out â€” I sincerely hope that Rob's deal turns out to be just severe allergies and that all of his customers get the items they've paid for â€” but I can't help but wonder what the fallout will be if these orders go unfilled. I suspect it will help put an end to much of the automatic goodwill that industry "names" seem to get from many gamers ... especially if those "names" are holding their hands out for money. A cynical view, I know, but I suspect that such will be the case.

I think it's definitely the end of Pied Piper Games....and a lot of Aceaum members seem to agree with me (if I count the private PMs I've been getting). Even if Rob's illness is 100% completely legit, the problems here have shown no one should be running a "pay and print" company like this without some sort of support system. Being as the sales market for this type of product is already a niche of a niche, I can't see there being any sort of target audience anymore that matters when half of what is already a tiny number have been alienated. Very unfortunately, because I do think there are a lot of dedicated gamers that would like to see the stuff being put out by these types of companies. I misstep like this, however, is impossible to recover from.

Mike B.

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Deogolf
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Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 8:02 pm

Badmike wrote:
IF Rob is deathly ill, then I wish him a fast recovery. And I would still like to receive my fully paid for copies of Bottle City in the future.....these two things are not mutually exclusive no matter what the circumstances.

Why is Rob still turning away assistance at this point?

Mike B.

"If"? Hmmm...

Rob is definitely ill - deathly, I haven't the foggiest. It's definitely not allergies.

I highly doubt its a matter of taking the money and running. It's not like he's making a million bucks on this and heading for Tahiti. I'm sure he has valid reasons for what's going on right now.

I know Rob is not the easiest guy to get along with, but, I think he has respect for his fanbase. Even I don't know what is going on. I can only assume that because he's been so quiet, that it can't be a good thing. Just speculation.

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Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 8:33 pm

Deogolf wrote:
"If"? Hmmm...

Rob is definitely ill - deathly, I haven't the foggiest. It's definitely not allergies.

I highly doubt its a matter of taking the money and running. It's not like he's making a million bucks on this and heading for Tahiti. I'm sure he has valid reasons for what's going on right now.

I know Rob is not the easiest guy to get along with, but, I think he has respect for his fanbase. Even I don't know what is going on. I can only assume that because he's been so quiet, that it can't be a good thing. Just speculation.

There might be many valid reasons...but IMO only one springs readily to mind due to the circumstances of Rob's (and Pied Pipers) disappearing act.

And people don't have to have the incentive of a million bucks to take money...people have taken far less. I'm not even saying it's for malicious reasons....maybe Rob has just gotten behind on his bills. Whatever the reason the continued delay and silence is troubling.

Mike B.

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Cattledog
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Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 9:05 pm

I've reached the "concern" stage as well. It seems there have been several false start attempts at shipping. At this point if BC is anything less than great, I'll be disappointed.

Hmm, no, I don't have a gambling problem, I'm winning, and winning is not a problem. That's like saying Michael Jordan has a basketball problem, or Def Leppard has an awesomeness problem. So why don't y'all pour some sugar on that?

Deadlord
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Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 10:11 pm

How much were the presale copies?

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Badmike
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Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 10:55 pm

Deadlord39 wrote:How much were the presale copies?

Regular copies were $20 I believe....I don't know how much the limited edition copies were.

Mike B.

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Badmike
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Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 11:14 pm

Deogolf wrote:
Just speculation.

Just to note....everything here is just speculation...because nothing has been heard from the main figure in this for several months. Not to mention it is coming up on a year from when pre-orders were made for Bottle City.

Unfortunately speculation is going to continue to run rampant until something more definite than "went to see Rob and he's sick" or "talked to Rob and he doesn't feel well but should ship someday" is put forth. Sorry, it's the nature of the beast.

Mike B.

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grodog
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Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 11:26 pm

http://p085.ezboard.com/fpiedpiperpubli ... =433.topic

Allan Grohe ([email protected])
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Badmike
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Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 11:39 pm

grodog wrote:http://p085.ezboard.com/fpiedpiperpubli ... =433.topic

Rob's health - update 29 December 2007 @ 11:00pm EST
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I just got off the phone from a long (2 hour) conversation with Rob.

Rob sounds much better than when I spoke to him earlier in December: his voice sounded stronger---comparable to when we were hanging out at GenCon and talking on the phone soon thereafter---and he was his usual irascible self too (cracking wry jokes, providing his keen insight and opinions, etc.).

In terms of a general update on PPP business, Rob had a few items he specifically wanted me to mention:

Rob is very disappointed that his health has delayed the shipment of Bottle City, and that he has further disappointed his fans through his radio silence to date; that said, Rob's priority has been to get healthy again, and as a result PPP business has taken a back seat over the past quarter
Rob's health is "steadily improving" though he's "still dealing with a few things" that arose during his pneumonia treatment; I don't know any further details about his health problems than that, and Rob has made it clear that he's not going to discuss his personal health problems in detail with me or with his fans, even though his health has impacted PPP's business
the PPP site is now back online, after an issue at the server was fixed today
the PPP server also caused about 20 recent orders to be flagged as spam; Rob has recovered these orders, and will begin processing them soon, and changes have been made that should prevent orders from being flagged as spam at the server-level in the future
Rob feels sufficiently recovered that he thinks he'll be able to ship the majority of the outstanding Bottle City and other PPP product orders by the third week of January 2008

I asked Rob about when he thinks he may be able to return online more regularly, and he didn't have a clear sense of that yet: he wants to get the products shipped first, then will worry about returning to the forums.

All-in-all, I heartened after chatting with Rob: he sounds better than before, though reading between the lines it sounds like he's not fully-recovered or even necessarily out of the woods yet with his health problems. At this point, though, I'm happy to relate any signs of improvement that I can find

Thank you Allan.

You went above and beyond....you are definitely the hardest working man in game-business.

I sincerely hope this isn't just more talk on Rob's part...the natives are EXTREMELY restless.

I still get the impression Rob doesn't really realize the extent of the damage done to his rep or his company at this point..but at least we have another deadline to look forward to. At this point anything is a positive.

And it'll still be a cold day in Hell before I purchase from PPP ever again....

Mike B.

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grodog
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Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 11:52 pm

Badmike wrote:Thank you Allan. You went above and beyond....you are definitely the hardest working man in game-business.

I don't know about that, but thanks, Mike.

Badmike wrote:I sincerely hope this isn't just more talk on Rob's part...the natives are EXTREMELY restless.

I can understand that, and certainly sympathize. I was hoping to be able to share BC with friends and family while home for the holidays....

Badmike wrote:I still get the impression Rob doesn't really realize the extent of the damage done to his rep or his company at this point..but at least we have another deadline to look forward to. At this point anything is a positive.

I'm not at all sure of that, though we didn't talk about how future PPP books will be bought in the future.

Badmike wrote:And it'll still be a cold day in Hell before I purchase from PPP ever again....

Also understandable. I would like to hope that Rob can re-earn your trust, Mike, at some point in the future. What would that take?

Allan Grohe ([email protected])
Greyhawk, grodog Style

Editor and Project Manager, Black Blade Publishing
https://www.facebook.com/BlackBladePublishing/

Badmike
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Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 12:57 am

grodog wrote:
Also understandable. I would like to hope that Rob can re-earn your trust, Mike, at some point in the future. What would that take?

BC arriving soon would be a nice start. However, at this point there is really nothing that PPP or Rob could do, because unfortuntately in the last few days I learned more than I really wanted to know about how Rob runs PPP, and that has pretty much turned me off buying their products....as nice as they are, it would take a complete overhaul of PPP business practices which I just don't feel a person in Rob's position (or health) is capable of. I feel like the the guy who looks behind the scenes at a restaurant and discovers WAY more than he needs to about what goes on in the kitchen. I honestly don't know how Rob is going to be able to sell a pre order of anything short of the original Castle Greyhawk with artwork by Erol Otus after this debacle.

If asked my opinion, I think that like any one man operation there is far too much responsibility on Rob and the limits of that have been shown in the last year. I have several suggestions that I hope Rob would think about implementing...something as simple as volunteers to assist him with taking orders or shipping would be at the top of the list. I know for a fact there are several people here or on Dragonsfoot that would be quite excited to work with Rob in any capacity, paid or not. For Rob not to avail himself of this resource is detrimental to his bottom line and I think that will show in the months ahead.

One of my first jobs was with a real estate development corporation that skirted the line of illegal activity (I was a delivery driver there so I had nothing to do with it). Basically, when it came time to pay the contractors, the corporation refused to pay, and told the contractors they would have to go to court to get paid....OR take a quarter on the dollar for their work and sign a form saying they wouldn't sue. It worked fine for awhile...many projects brought in way under budget..but eventually, nobody will work with that sort of person.....and the corporation went bankrupt. I think Rob is going down that road if he isn't careful. But I will say I do hope he manages to turn it around, at least for the sake of his many customers.

Mike B.

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jasonw1239
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Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 8:32 am

PPP website is back up and there was a posting on the 29th by Grodog that adds more information.

http://p085.ezboard.com/Robs-health--up ... =433.topic

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beyerun
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Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 12:26 pm

Deadlord39 wrote:How much were the presale copies?

The collector limited editions were $150 a piece.

Badmike
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Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 12:31 pm

beyerun wrote:
The collector limited editions were $150 a piece.

I just found that out too...ouch. I know a few people that ordered multiple copies.

Mike B.

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