WotC Kills the OCE!
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Post Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 6:58 pm 
 

Beyondthebreach wrote:Clarkie

I am not being ignorant.  I truly believe that the market for pdf's of OCE's are people who were never going to buy an OCE in the first place!  They are either 3rd edition players with no interest who succumb to an "impulse" buy.  "Hey, only $6.00 - let's check it out!"

Or maybe they have a real interest, but never had any intention of spending more than $10 for one . . . therefore meaning that they were never really in the market to begin with.

Sure, maybe there are a few people who would have purchased one but won't do so because of the pdf . . . but I think this will be offset by those
who do purchase one because of discoverig the pdf rules.

OCE is a collectible item and out of print.  The same rules don't apply as with CD's that are just released.  It is the reason that burned CD's do not affect the sales of Record Albums - albums are for collectors who have no interest in a CD.


Interestingly, I've also started selling LPs in my Ebay store....and they sell pretty well, considering the CDs for most of these are readily available for less than I'm selling the LPs for.  A lot of vinyl junkies still out there apparantly!
 Here's where I once again state that anyone INVESTING in used RPG products be forewarned...there is NOTHING preventng WOTC from releasing a ST1, Tso, Tam or whatever tomorrow if they so choose....Pandora's box is already opened, it's just a question of what will come out next.

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Post Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 7:09 pm 
 

bclarkie wrote:If copying works isn't such a big deal when it comes to value, then why do all these countries have those seemingly pesky Copyright laws in place???


Because copyright laws are not supposed (whether they are or not is another story) to be about the "value" of the work, and more about ensuring that the creators/owners of the work get their share of whatever is being charged for it.

  


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Post Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 7:27 pm 
 

g026r wrote:
Because copyright laws are not supposed (whether they are or not is another story) to be about the "value" of the work, and more about ensuring that the creators/owners of the work get their share of whatever is being charged for it.


Thus ensuring the "value" of it.


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Post Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 7:29 pm 
 

Badmike wrote:
I sell for a living and have yet to see a pdf significanctly effect a TRUE collectible in the aftermarket sales...


Intreresting, considering we have absolutely no idea what things would be selling for nowadays if not for the pdf downloads.  I don't think I'd be going too far out on a limb by saying that they'd likely be selling for more than they do now.   People seem to lose sight of the fact that because things are selling for more now than they did 5-10-15 years ago that there is no effect on the market.  Unfortuantely, its not that simple.  

Sadly, we have no idea how much even common items may have had their prices retarded bacause of the legal and illegal pdfs floating around out there.


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Post Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 7:42 pm 
 

Badmike wrote:
Copyright laws are there to protect the wealthy, and make the rich richer.  The logic behind them makes no sense....half the time copyright LAWYERS (those whose job is to study the law) can't even agree on what they mean.  


Speaking from personal experience, I've published (not on the Internet, but in real magazines and books) material for which I retain the copyright.  If Hollywood were to dig up an old short story I wrote and make a movie from it without my permission (and this has happened to many writers), copyright laws would give me a mechanism with which to protect my intellectual property.  

Yes, it's true that by and large they work to the advantage of the wealthy and large estates, but I am not wealthy by a long shot, and I'd still prefer to have copyright in existence, however convoluted the laws may be.

However, the publishing, motion picture and recording industries are going to have to rethink the entire paradigm of royalties.  It's quickly becoming an outmoded way for artists to make money.  Just my two cents'  :wink:

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Post Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 7:44 pm 
 

bombadil wrote:By the way, speaking of lovely old dice from OCEs and earlier, John Huckerby, if you're reading this, I haven't forgotten.  Your dice are on the way!   :D

Surprised that I spotted this.  Not dropping by much these days.

Thanks very much.  Looking forward to seeing them.

J.


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Post Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 8:22 pm 
 

Back to the original question, I think PDFs will increase an item's value by generating the exposure needed to get people to bid on the real thing.  However, I could easily be wrong if there is a proliferation of forgeries.

What about comics, postage stamps or baseball cards?  Have high resolution reproductions of these items been created?  If so, what has been the impact on those markets?

Keith


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Post Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 8:43 pm 
 

johnhuck wrote:Surprised that I spotted this.  Not dropping by much these days.

Thanks very much.  Looking forward to seeing them.

J.


Figured I'd just split the lot in half, just haven't gotten around to it yet.   :D


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Post Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 9:05 pm 
 

I'm not going to get into a debate on the matter, just make a prediction.  Auction prices on OCEs will begin to creep downward.  It'll take a year or so, I'm guessing, before the average drops below $100.

Two reasons:

1.  The value is overinflated right now, in my opinion.  It was destined to drop, anyway.

2.  Many of the people that used to push the bids up have been removed from the equation.

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Post Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 9:12 pm 
 

*must get another OCE* :)

I hope the price goes down a little, but I've been able to find them for $50 - 90, so.... I guess they're not that valuable to begin with. Now, if only the woodgrain would drop by half. ;)


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Post Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 9:13 pm 
 

The OCE is a collector's item, and has been removed from casual purchase. Any effect the publishing of a PDF will have on the collector's value of an OCE will be minimal.

A PDF of a currently-in-print or especially brand new product will have a major impact on the salability of the printed product. Especially if said PDF is readily given away by friends to "get back at the man" or because "it hurts no one."

This is why I will not sell PDFs of AGP products...


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Post Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 9:24 pm 
 

i dont think it will affect price - most ppl would still want the real deal anyway

but then what do i know :)

Al



  

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Post Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 12:28 am 
 

Seeing as the booklets in the OCE have been available online as free downloads for some time now...I would say that Wizards is a bit late to the game.

I like the price.  $5 is totally worth it...and likely to appeal to gamers who otherwise wouldn't check the old booklets out.

Hopefully, they will wise up and market all the old books at reasonable prices.


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Post Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 12:43 am 
 

The Blackmoor supplement has been available for free for a long time too.

http://jovianclouds.com/blackmoor/bmc.html

After reading Dave's main page though, it seems like he has the same editor as Coug.

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Post Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 1:28 am 
 

Its worse (better?). They also have a bundle for the Supplements and Chainmail at $30. Grab while you can get 'em.


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Post Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 2:09 am 
 

Badmike wrote:Copyright laws are there to protect the wealthy, and make the rich richer.  The logic behind them makes no sense....half the time copyright LAWYERS (those whose job is to study the law) can't even agree on what they mean.  They are the biggest boondoggle since the income tax.

OH Contraire my friend.

Those Copyright Laws which you so despise, protect my entire profession (And many others as well) from unscrupulous persons using our work without paying for it. They also protect the public from those same folks.

In my profession, Title Company's and Real Estate professionals had a nasty habit of using and reusing the professional product of land surveyors anytime they wanted to. They would retain copies of old land surveys in their files and reuse them at will. They used them for sales of the same properties over the course of many years and even decades.

What matters this you ask? The general public, (Buyer) is most likely unaware of any changes to that property since that old survey was done 30 years ago. The title company does not care, so long as that buyer signs the waiver forms (Which protect ONLY the title company, not the buyer, or seller).

The title companies were telling the buyers that no new survey was needed, they had the old one. "Here, just sign this waiver and we will save you hundreds of dollars in survey fees."  Of course they fail to mention (Or didnt know) that the current owner had built a new barn out back and that it protrudes onto the neighbor's yard by 8 feet.  (NO survey was done for that either, they cost too much)

Oh well, the buyer can deal with that later on……… he won't be able to sue the title company though, since he signed that waiver….  Now the buyer can pay his attorney thousands and possibly pay a demolitions company to demolish that barn. Then pay his neighbor for the lost use of the land. But HEY! The title company saved him money at the closing table!

Those waivers are still legal in Texas, however, re-using an old survey is NOT. Copyright Laws protect not only the author, but the public as well in some cases.

:!:  :!:  Copyright Laws: Two Thumbs WAY WAY UP :!:  :!:


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Post Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 6:33 am 
 

- http://enworld.rpgnow.com/product_info. ... s_id=22428
did not notice books scanned from same shrinked box as http://www.acaeum.com/ddindexes/setpage ... oxoce.html

  


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Post Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 6:47 am 
 

For a collector like myself, I'm glad to have the PDF's available at a reasonable price.  I think it's because I'm interested in the history of the game just as much as owning a piece of it.

I own many 1E books, modules, and so forth, and I love both reading through them and having something that is a piece of AD&D history.  I may never be able to afford an actual OCE, but as a second choice, I would love to have the material to read through, see how the game developed, and so on.  Just like reprints in other collecting arenas, such things have no ‘collector' value, but they have tremendous worth for those of us who would just like to see something we would not be able to otherwise.

  

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Post Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 9:49 am 
 

Aneoth wrote:OH Contraire my friend.

Those Copyright Laws which you so despise, protect my entire profession (And many others as well) from unscrupulous persons using our work without paying for it. They also protect the public from those same folks.

In my profession, Title Company's and Real Estate professionals had a nasty habit of using and reusing the professional product of land surveyors anytime they wanted to. They would retain copies of old land surveys in their files and reuse them at will. They used them for sales of the same properties over the course of many years and even decades.

What matters this you ask? The general public, (Buyer) is most likely unaware of any changes to that property since that old survey was done 30 years ago. The title company does not care, so long as that buyer signs the waiver forms (Which protect ONLY the title company, not the buyer, or seller).

The title companies were telling the buyers that no new survey was needed, they had the old one. "Here, just sign this waiver and we will save you hundreds of dollars in survey fees."  Of course they fail to mention (Or didnt know) that the current owner had built a new barn out back and that it protrudes onto the neighbor's yard by 8 feet.  (NO survey was done for that either, they cost too much)

Oh well, the buyer can deal with that later on……… he won't be able to sue the title company though, since he signed that waiver….  Now the buyer can pay his attorney thousands and possibly pay a demolitions company to demolish that barn. Then pay his neighbor for the lost use of the land. But HEY! The title company saved him money at the closing table!

Those waivers are still legal in Texas, however, re-using an old survey is NOT. Copyright Laws protect not only the author, but the public as well in some cases.

:!:  :!:  Copyright Laws: Two Thumbs WAY WAY UP :!:  :!:


It's off topic, but interesting Aneoth.  However, I must say, that this does sound great for the buyer.  All the buyer has to do is not be an idiot and ask to look at the survey.  If everything looks the same (i.e. no barn was built on the neightbor's property) then they do save hundreds of dollars.


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Post Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 12:20 pm 
 

Copyright laws are there to protect the wealthy, and make the rich richer.  The logic behind them makes no sense....half the time copyright LAWYERS (those whose job is to study the law) can't even agree on what they mean.


Copyright laws are intended to provide incentives for artistic expression, just like patents are to encourage innovation. If you didn't have copyright laws, someone could spend a year writing a book and another could simply make copies of it and produce it himself with no effort. Copyrights are fundamental to the notion of private property rights.

Now I would agree with you that the wealthy benefit from such laws, but its nothing special about them. The rich benefit from all laws. They have the resources to figure out and take advantage of all the complexities that the average person cannot. I mean the tax code is like 40,000 pages long. Copyright laws are equally complex.

They are the biggest boondoggle since the income tax.  Besides that the laws vary from country to country...what is legal to do in the UK, say, and in the US, are totally different. I think most of us can agree on a set, logical dates for copyrights to be extended to (say, 50 years after the death of the creator). Instead, we get ever-changing rules that are extended continually when a choice property comes up (such as the Disney estate, or the Burroughs estate, or the Tolkien estate), and a plethora of copyright rules, regulations and requirements that most professionals have a difficult time sorting through.


I agree. But it doesn't seem efficient for every country to have the same rules. There are advantages to having laws suit the individual preferences of each country (or even state or local government).

If you truly don't think the government has NOTHING better to do than waste our tax money, I have to disagree...that's what they do BEST  


I agree, but this doesn't really have anything to do with copyright laws :)

  
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