Sea-to-sky-games wrote:I don't know about the statistics in this hobby or in others (like baseball cards), but at first blush, reprints will hurt the value of authentic copies which will probably make a few people here unhappy. 1) these things are so easy to forge that a duplicate copy will have much of the same aesthetics as the original, except it might be in even better condition. 2) proliferation of unauthentic copies, which some might pass off as authentic, could depress values due to buyers facing greater risk of getting screwed.
red_bus wrote:With mags and lower value or difficult-to-forge collectibles this would not be a problem. For example the White Dwarf and Dragon Mag archives co-exist alongside stable(ish) collector values for these (at least now). But for easily forged items this would be a disaster. Example: Jade Hare - which cougarrinard already sells as a photocopy. Imagine the bagged Tamo/Tsojconth as a easily print-able and widely distributed copy...
Badmike wrote:That being said, whether or not reprints will hurt the originals remains to be seen. The example of Comic books is given, where all the dozens and dozens of reprints has never affected the resale price of true rares. For every example of a D&D item reprint hurting the original's price, I could give you another one where the price rose. Dragon#1 is a good example, as well as ALL the early Dragon mags...I'm also thinking of Judge's Guild items, which have been or are being reprinted in d20 form, having no effect on the resale of original Dark Towers or Caverns of Thracia.
Badmike wrote:I find most people that protest these reprints already have a copy....and either don't want anyone else to have a copy (some people's self worth is very tied up in the items they own), or are afraid the $1000+ they paid for the item is now in the toilet. Collectible investing is never a given, and most TRUE collectors want the ORIGINAL item, not a later reprint. IMO, the reprints should not hurt the original values of the collectibles...and if, say, the price for an original POTVQ drops to $100 because of this, I WILL be in the market for multiple copies.
Badmike wrote:But then again, no one will know until it happens. I do know there are alot of D&D collectors and fans that realisticaly have no expectations of ever owning a Wee Warriors item, and if this scheme can get it into the hands of one of those folk, I think the interest in the hobby it can inspire offsets the possible loss of collectible value in the originals.
Badmike wrote: I may be an abberation, but I typically purchase/aquire pdfs of products I already have, and if I come across a pdf of something I don't have, if it's well written it causes me to seek out the original print verson. I think the release of Wee Warriors items on pdf could cause the price to rise even higher because of this effect.
Badmike wrote:People are also forgetting that the issue of producing a pdf of POTVQ and worrying if someone is going to print out fakes is a moot point. There are AlREADY lots of these originals out there, and if anyone wants to print out a fake copy, it would take very little time or expense (the folder would be the toughest part but actually a good print shop could have these made up with no problem).
deimos3428 wrote:Perhaps the PDFs could include some protection against confusing them with the original, Shady? Could you include an easily identifiable mark which would indicate it's the PDF? Surely that wouldn't be difficult to do in a non-digital way to a "master" prior to the scan, so it's included in a non-removable fashion.
bclarkie wrote:It should also be pointed out that Mr Schenk also might have a legitimate legal say so in this debate, as he was part of the Wee Warriors at this time and I can't imagine that he gave up the rights to his artwork and cartography included within these modules when they were produced....
Badmike wrote: That being said, whether or not reprints will hurt the originals remains to be seen. The example of Comic books is given, where all the dozens and dozens of reprints has never affected the resale price of true rares. For every example of a D&D item reprint hurting the original's price, I could give you another one where the price rose. Dragon#1 is a good example, as well as ALL the early Dragon mags...I'm also thinking of Judge's Guild items, which have been or are being reprinted in d20 form, having no effect on the resale of original Dark Towers or Caverns of Thracia. The thing is Mike you are comparing apples and oranges when you are comparing D20 updates of past products and to actual copies or pdfs of products that were produced with no alteration, there is no comparision at all. I disagree with the Dragons assesment as with the exception of the first 30 Dragon magazines, Dragon Magazines took a HUGE hit when the DMA came out. Even the first 30 took a hit in value, just not as great as the later issues.
Badmike wrote: I find most people that protest these reprints already have a copy....and either don't want anyone else to have a copy (some people's self worth is very tied up in the items they own), or are afraid the $1000+ they paid for the item is now in the toilet. Collectible investing is never a given, and most TRUE collectors want the ORIGINAL item, not a later reprint. IMO, the reprints should not hurt the original values of the collectibles...and if, say, the price for an original POTVQ drops to $100 because of this, I WILL be in the market for multiple copies. For one I don't own a 1st PotVQ, I own a 5th print(that I happened to pick of for the princely sum of $25) so this is absolutely no threat to me no matter how it turns out and yet I still think that there would be better ways to handle this. Aside from that though, I find it hard to take that you are not only categorizing and criticizing people who want to protect their own investment as being bad and then turn around in the same sentence say that if the market drops out on them and they start selling for $100 each you'll be in the market for multiple copies of them. Its a bit hypocritical to say the least and I got to be honest Mike, it seems like you are viewing this more from a perspective of someone who would have something to gain by this, no matter how it turns out
Badmike wrote: But then again, no one will know until it happens. I do know there are alot of D&D collectors and fans that realisticaly have no expectations of ever owning a Wee Warriors item, and if this scheme can get it into the hands of one of those folk, I think the interest in the hobby it can inspire offsets the possible loss of collectible value in the originals. To be honest neither the PotVQ nor the DG are actually even that great from a product standpoint. I really like the back story to PotVQ, but the the rest of the module as well as all DG are kinda sh*t adventures. The both make bare bones modules like Tegal Manor look verbose. I think time would be better spend adding on to and fleshing out what has been "started", because effectively thats all PotVQ and DG are, starts. To be honest thats going to be a lot of effort, but to me it would be time much better spent doing that, than just scanning these modules and selling them for $5 each or even giving them away for free.
Badmike wrote: People are also forgetting that the issue of producing a pdf of POTVQ and worrying if someone is going to print out fakes is a moot point. There are AlREADY lots of these originals out there, and if anyone wants to print out a fake copy, it would take very little time or expense (the folder would be the toughest part but actually a good print shop could have these made up with no problem). I am not sure making it all easier if there isn't already large scale proliferation of these items is the way to go, I mean people commit crimes everyday. It doesn't mean that we as a society throw out the laws on the basis that, "Well people are going to break the laws anyway, why try?"
red_bus wrote:To my mind there are two possible and different concerns here:First, the concern that this will make it more likely that we will see forgeries of items - items for which many collectors would at least consider paying large amounts of money. One doesn't have to think to hard to come up with a shortlist of targets. It is possible to put in place certain safeguards that would make this kind of forgery, while certainly not impossible (some may go on already), but less financially tempting. Perhaps by altering the pdfs in some manner, or (more unlikely) by creating a register of 'genuine' items. Second, that releasing pdfs, even if such are recognisably / slightly different from original items, will devalue the existing market for collectibles. It is true that they would have an effect, but it is likely (I think) to be mixed - on the one hand increasing interest (and possibly demand), on the other hand making rare stuff more accessible.These are different concerns. Personally I am much more concerned about No. 1 (risk of fakes), rather than No. 2 (market changes) I think almost everyone would agree that making unknown or rare old D&D stuff more easily available is a good thing . As is developing new & expanded versions of beloved old adventures. Looking at most posts here thus far - people are very concerned about the risk of fakes. And that is my main concern.
Badmike wrote:I think a lot of collectors who are not in the market to shell out half grand for a game item would in interested in seeing the product. It's a shame that lot of the rich history of this hobby is hidden away in boxes, storage rooms, filing cabinets and safes. The pdf would be moot point. The means has always existed for anyone owning an original POTVQ to sell counterfeit versions if the mood hit them. The means and materials are not that hard to find. A pdf won't change that.Mike .
bclarkie wrote:Two things, short and sweet:1) I fail to see how re-releasing adventures from 1976, let alone ones that are not even good ones at that that are not even supported by todays game would do one iota to prome the hobby. Call me a fool if you must, by I CAN'T SEE IT, AT ALL.There area segment of collectors/gamers out there than think gaming began at Gencon 1999 when 3rd edition was released. It's always nice to show them the roots of the hobby go, way, way back, maybe before they were born. There may not be a market for it. There may be a huge market for it. There may be 10 gamers interested in downloading a free pdf of POTVQ. There may be 1000. I say let the marketplace decide.2) Again, I will reiterate I have absolutely ZERO financial stake in this and yet I see it 100% differently than you. For someone who claims to have no stake in it yourself Mike you sure seem eager to get these things "out there" for everyone to see, especially for someone who doesn't own a copy themselves. Its easy for you to tell Jeff(both of them) or Alan or David or Paul or Bill or any of the other 1st print PotVQ owners out there, sorry about your $1000 there, but it was in my own best interests that this seeing the light of day, because I don't own it and some others out there don't either because its a curiosity. I guess when its not your $1000 or whatever it means a lot less.I can't say you're wrong ENTIRELY. If I was sitting on a box of, say, 30 NM copies of POTVQ, yeh I might be a bit apprehensive, especially if I was banking on selling them for $1000 apiece for my retirement fund. However, like 95% of the gamers/collectors out there, I don't even have ONE copy of any Wee Warriors stuff, and I would be interested in owning a pdf for perusal purposes. That's human nature; I'm interested in looking at the items, what can I say. If it can be done legally and professionally, that's beyond cool. Apologies to all ten owners of POTVQ in the world, but I don't see how my wanting an item I don't reasonably have a chance of purchasing unless I want to skip rent one month enters into the equation. I wasn't put on the earth, and neither were the thousands of gamers out there, to protect the investments of a handful of uber collectors who have paid what they thought the item was worth to them and presumably will still be happy with owning an original copy even after a LEGAL pdf is released someday. There has never, never, ever been a guarantee from anyone that certain super rares like ST1, Lost Tamoachan, or POTVQ wouldn't be republished. Sure, the odds have always been against it. But didn't this already happen once with the Orange B3? (released as a free download at the WOTC site?). It's been up there for FREE for what, 10 years now? And if an Orange B3 came up for Ebay bid tomorow, it would blow through the roof....But there is simply no guarantee that, say, next month WOTC might decide "What the hell, let's put ST1 up for free download on our site for it's 20th anniversary". Sure the odds are against it, but..... I'm sure the 83 people that own a copy of Action #1 wish it had never been reprinted...but the millions and millions of others who have enjoyed this comic through the years via reprints have been enriched. And man, why do they reprint that piece of junk? I mean, the artwork is really primitive, the story is melodramatic and dumb, I can't see it at all...... Another thing, call me a cyninic and call me "elitist", but I am the ass hole that reports all the illegal pdfers on Ebay on a freaking daily basis, so please spare me the "not giving people the benefit of the doubt" crap. I live in the same world as you do, and people would steal the gum out of your mouth if they thought they could some money for it. Your own posts here even iterate that, but you have the "well people are going to do it anyway illegally or not, so why bother. We might as well do it ourselves and try to make some money out of it first!!". Sorry, but I was raised to be honets and to fight for what you believe in, especially if its the right thing to do no matter the cost. Like I said in my above post, the debate here is moot if all the legally responsible parties agree to do it.
bclarkie wrote:Two things, short and sweet:1) I fail to see how re-releasing adventures from 1976, let alone ones that are not even good ones at that that are not even supported by todays game would do one iota to prome the hobby. Call me a fool if you must, by I CAN'T SEE IT, AT ALL.
2) Again, I will reiterate I have absolutely ZERO financial stake in this and yet I see it 100% differently than you. For someone who claims to have no stake in it yourself Mike you sure seem eager to get these things "out there" for everyone to see, especially for someone who doesn't own a copy themselves. Its easy for you to tell Jeff(both of them) or Alan or David or Paul or Bill or any of the other 1st print PotVQ owners out there, sorry about your $1000 there, but it was in my own best interests that this seeing the light of day, because I don't own it and some others out there don't either because its a curiosity. I guess when its not your $1000 or whatever it means a lot less
Another thing, call me a cyninic and call me "elitist", but I am the ass hole that reports all the illegal pdfers on Ebay on a freaking daily basis, so please spare me the "not giving people the benefit of the doubt" crap. I live in the same world as you do, and people would steal the gum out of your mouth if they thought they could some money for it. Your own posts here even iterate that, but you have the "well people are going to do it anyway illegally or not, so why bother. We might as well do it ourselves and try to make some money out of it first!!". Sorry, but I was raised to be honets and to fight for what you believe in, especially if its the right thing to do no matter the cost. Like I said in my above post, the debate here is moot if all the legally responsible parties agree to do it.
Badmike wrote: However, if Cougar somehow got the rights to Starstone and sold LEGAL pdfs on his site for $25 a pop that somehow makes everything better? It's shocking someone unscrupulous HASNT done that yet...but they have, remember the counterfeits you and I bought Brian? Of an obscure gaming supplement or two? So not only is it going to happen, it HAS happened, and will continue to happen. It's only sheer stupid dumb luck it hasn't happened yet with a POTVQ or Dwarven Glory, THAT WE KNOW OF. Better to beat the crooks to the punch by releasing a LEGAL, perhaps free pdf of these rares than see illegal copies sold to unsuspecting newbie collectors.Mike B.