PDFs of modules and magazines...
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Post Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 1:21 pm 
 

Ok, let's get this part out of the way... my login to the forms is new, but I have been visiting the Acaeum since about 2000. Last time I made an account (about 6 weeks ago) I got hammered. I said I'd not post anymore, but this is cool stuff and I want some in put, so I am posting.
If you still feel like hammering me, then do it in email, I promise to read them all: [email protected]

Now, on to the point of this post:

I am currently working with a couple of people to get old modules and magazines out on PDF so others can have copies without it being "illegal", and thus more people can see and read this old stuff instead of those with high dollar pockets.

Currently I am creating PDFs of all the Adventure Gaming Magazines produced by Manzakk Publishing (which was/is Timothy Kask's company).

Tim is upbeat about having his old magazines brought back to life and of course hoping people will have an interest in them. I don't think he expects to recover the losses sustained when he was publishing the magazine, but I think knowing more people might read it again today is cool. And if he can get a few dollars back for the effort, all the better. In any case, I am sure more on this will be posted by Tim down the road.

Which brings me to my next topic.

I called Peter Kerestan about how to bring the old PotVQ and possibly Dwarven Glory to PDF. We spoke a bit this morning and I am waiting on some additional responses via email & fax before proceeding further.

I also am getting a bit more history on these modules so Scott can update the pages about them (related to when large copies were destroyed, the printing plates etc.)

What I am interested in, is what do people think about this ?
Is there good or bad reason for trying to make this happen ?
Are there concerns people have?

Obviously I don't want to do anything that would devalue the collectible items that are out there, but I don't think this should be a problem.

P.S. Since my 1st print copy of PotVQ is missing the "copyright" page and the "Intro" page, it would be nice if someone with a copy could scan these 2 pages and send them to me...

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Post Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 1:38 pm 
 

I think it would be very naïve to assume the value of the original would not be affected.  Having said that  it will happen anyway (illegally or not) so might as well forge ahead.

Good luck :)


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Post Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 1:42 pm 
 

Being as diplomatic as possible,  I am not sure that offering up a module that is already 1000 times too easy to fake as a pdf is going to garner much support around here nor do I many people here are going to think that its a good idea.  

Assuming Pete Kerestan actually does own the copyright to this product still, he can do whatever he wants with it, but again I don't think that it would find much of an audience at this venue...


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Post Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 1:52 pm 
 

I should probably add that your screen name mocking a thread here isn't exactly the best "restart".  Since most everyone does not know who you are, perhaps a name change and a more proper formal introduction here would be a better "restart" than this if thats really what you are looking for and not here just to start trouble....


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Post Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 1:55 pm 
 

There is a bit of an interesting comparison here:  With comic books, you can find any issue of note in a legal reprint.  Want to read Amazing Fantasy #15 (1st Spiderman) or Incredible Hulk #181 (1st Wolverine) - no problem!  It's easy - I bet Amazing Fantasy has been reprinted dozens of times . . . but that doesn't affect the value of the original.  They are two different worlds . .


I might pay $5.00 for a legal pdf of Dwarven Glory . . . at least at this point I'd never pay even $50.00 for an original . . . if I ever did have the spare cash to throw around on collectibles, then pdf's wouldn't be the slightest concern as I would want the item.

I collect for the item itself, not for the story it contains.


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Post Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 2:01 pm 
 

Obviously I don't want to do anything that would devalue the collectible items that are out there, but I don't think this should be a problem.


I don't know about the statistics in this hobby or in others (like baseball cards), but at first blush, reprints will hurt the value of authentic copies which will probably make a few people here unhappy. 1) these things are so easy to forge that a duplicate copy will have much of the same aesthetics as the original, except it might be in even better condition. 2) proliferation of unauthentic copies, which some might pass off as authentic, could depress values due to buyers facing greater risk of getting screwed.

  


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Post Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 2:07 pm 
 

With mags and lower value or difficult-to-forge collectibles this would not be a problem.  For example the White Dwarf and Dragon Mag archives co-exist alongside stable(ish) collector values for these (at least now).  But for easily forged items this would be a disaster.  Example: Jade Hare - which cougarrinard already sells as a photocopy.  Imagine the bagged Tamo/Tsojconth as a easily print-able and widely distributed copy...


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Post Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 2:19 pm 
 

I don't own a POTVQ so anything I can do to help bring the price down I am all for.  :D



Wait...where did all those guys with torches and pitchforks come from?  PDT_Armataz_01_23



Obviously I am kidding.  However, I dont necessarily think a .pdf of POTVQ would affect the value much.  IMHO it's too rare and too sought after by collectors.  I also don't think a .pdf (even a professionally made one) would garner a whole lot of interest....at least not enough to make any money from.  I wouldn't buy one...I'd rather have the real thing.

If a .pdf was done it would need to be done as professionally as possible.  A watermark, different font and any other possible security measures would need to be taken to ensure it couldnt be printed and sold as the real thing.  But again...I still don't think there would be a whole lot of interest.

Again...this is just my opinion...others are sure to disagree.  Perhaps you should have made a poll to more easily gauge interest.

Now if Pete and a publisher want to get together and put out Return to the Palace of the Vampire Queen or Expedition to the Palace of the Vampire Queen I am all for it.  PDT_Armataz_01_01



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Post Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 2:25 pm 
 

Kingofpain89 wrote:Where the hell did all these pitchforks come from?  8O


The Farmhouse of the Vampire Queen, of course. :D

  

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Post Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 2:27 pm 
 

Not to highjack this thread to a different topic by any means... (and should it need a new topic, let's make one)

But in response to BClarkie:

I was never to here to start trouble the first time, but was immediately hammered by a number of people. I am not here this time to start trouble either, as I stated, this is about bringing various modules and/or magazines to PDF format.

Since I was named a Shady Dealer in a thread about Shady Dealers, I figured what could it hurt to use the "title" bestowed upon me by the "powers" that be in these forums, as a "nickname" or "handle".

I cleared the handle ShadyDealer when I asked for the email here by the same name. I consider it a "tongue in cheek" handle at best, and have no problem being addressed as such. It is not a "mock" of any thread.

As to any "formal" introduction, I am douglaswrhea on eBay, you can read my "about me" profile....(you won't find any info about my dark musty house with animal heads on the walls [where ever that came from])... but it's my short history and back ground

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Post Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 2:29 pm 
 

bclarkie wrote:Being as diplomatic as possible,  I am not sure that offering up a module that is already 1000 times too easy to fake as a pdf is going to garner much support around here nor do I many people here are going to think that its a good idea.  

Assuming Pete Kerestan actually does own the copyright to this product still, he can do whatever he wants with it, but again I don't think that it would find much of an audience at this venue...

You've got to be happier hearing about someone producing a legally copied PDF than an illegally copied one, though.  I'd prefer if new works were distributed legally via PDF for free, but with already copyrighted works, that's just not going to happen.

(Personally, I don't believe in paying for PDFs or any other downloadable file.  They're either free, or I don't own them.  Legal compliations of files on physical media, sure.)

Will any physical media be available, Shady?  Or just the downloadable variety?

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Post Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 2:39 pm 
 

deimos3428 wrote:You've got to be happier hearing about someone producing a legally copied PDF than an illegally copied one, though.  I'd prefer if new works were distributed legally via PDF for free, but with already copyrighted works, that's just not going to happen.


Perhaps my point wasn't clear then.  Non-foldered 2nd & 3rd print PotVQs are already photocopies of the 1st printings.  Providing a widely distributed legal (or illegal)pdf of a photocopy is effectively asking for people to print them up and sell them as "Original!!".  

Anyone who doesn't think that the potential of people selling "fakes" as "originals" affecting the value of an item is very sadly mistaken.  I am not even delving into the greater availability of a particular product potentially driving down the value, I am stressing how easy it would be to proliferate "fakes" as real ones and how it would be next to impossible to tell the difference which will almost certainly drive the value of them down.


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Post Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 2:59 pm 
 

I guess I didn't say much about paid vs free.

As to the magazines I speak of, I believe those will have some fee associated with them. That will be determined by those that own the rights to those publications and thus I have no say.

The modules on the other hand might be different.

If all goes as I'd first hoped, I was going to create a nice PDF, in a non-printable format with light watermarks (just in case) for FREE distribution. The goal would be to make a PDF that would not allow easy reprinting to allow fakes to be made from it. I agree that proliferation of fakes would reduce values of the real deal.

But someone I spoke with inquired as to the possibility of "fleshing" out the PotVQ and making an updated version of the module as well... this would depends on current copyrights etc.and I am sure it would have a fee associated with it depending on how i was distributed. (should physical copies be desired)

All good points and good questions.

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Post Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 3:02 pm 
 

bclarkie wrote:Perhaps my point wasn't clear then.  Non-foldered 2nd & 3rd print print PotVQs are already photocopies of the first print.  Providing a widely distributed legal (or illegal)pdf of a photocopy is effectively asking for people to print them up and sell them as "Original!!".

Ok, good point.  That probably will affect pricing, though the direction isn't necessarily downwards...I can see a run on the originals starting already.  Also, the "buzz" created by the PDF being available might make people desirous of an original copy.

Perhaps the PDFs could include some protection against confusing them with the original, Shady?  Could you include an easily identifiable mark which would indicate it's the PDF?  Surely that wouldn't be difficult to do in a non-digital way to a "master" prior to the scan, so it's included in a non-removable fashion.  

(If it's done via the Acrobat software, it can be removed by crafty folk who know how to circumvent the technology.  I'm thinking something really low-tech like a triangular hole-punch.  There might be better methods... )

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Post Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 3:13 pm 
 

If they want to re-release PoTVQ in a new PRINTED format, I would happily pay the production costs and do it under the Center Stage Hobbies label. Details to be fleshed out, of course.

:)

Let me know, Shady...


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Post Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 3:33 pm 
 

I support the idea of legal pdfs as long as they can be identified as printed matter. Personally, I'd like to have access to the information not the rare collectible.


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Post Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 3:41 pm 
 

Cattledog wrote:I support the idea of legal pdfs as long as they can be identified as printed matter. Personally, I'd like to have access to the information not the rare collectible.

I agree. I would buy SOME of the rares as PDF copies... IF they were legal that is.

Three years ago, I would likely have had a different opinion, but my spare funds are no longer going for rare collectible D&D items.

Instead all of my money now goes into my self owned profesisonal business and the grandkids toys, ets. :wink:

I truly LOVE to spoil them and then send them home......  :twisted:  :lol:


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Post Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 3:56 pm 
 

ShadyDealer wrote:Ok, let's get this part out of the way... my login to the forms is new, but I have been visiting the Acaeum since about 2000. Last time I made an account (about 6 weeks ago) I got hammered. I said I'd not post anymore, but this is cool stuff and I want some in put, so I am posting.
If you still feel like hammering me, then do it in email, I promise to read them all: [email protected]

Now, on to the point of this post:

I am currently working with a couple of people to get old modules and magazines out on PDF so others can have copies without it being "illegal", and thus more people can see and read this old stuff instead of those with high dollar pockets.

Currently I am creating PDFs of all the Adventure Gaming Magazines produced by Manzakk Publishing (which was/is Timothy Kask's company).

Tim is upbeat about having his old magazines brought back to life and of course hoping people will have an interest in them. I don't think he expects to recover the losses sustained when he was publishing the magazine, but I think knowing more people might read it again today is cool. And if he can get a few dollars back for the effort, all the better. In any case, I am sure more on this will be posted by Tim down the road.

Which brings me to my next topic.

I called Peter Kerestan about how to bring the old PotVQ and possibly Dwarven Glory to PDF. We spoke a bit this morning and I am waiting on some additional responses via email & fax before proceeding further.

I also am getting a bit more history on these modules so Scott can update the pages about them (related to when large copies were destroyed, the printing plates etc.)

What I am interested in, is what do people think about this ?
Is there good or bad reason for trying to make this happen ?
Are there concerns people have?

Obviously I don't want to do anything that would devalue the collectible items that are out there, but I don't think this should be a problem.

P.S. Since my 1st print copy of PotVQ is missing the "copyright" page and the "Intro" page, it would be nice if someone with a copy could scan these 2 pages and send them to me...


Wow, I have a LOT to say on this issue. Please bear with me (cue long winded Badmike post)....

I have been saying on this forum for YEARS that the Pandora's Box will be thrown open wide someday.  It's just too easy for someone to get a copy of a rare and either A. Illegally print copies and pass them off as the originals (being as the quality of the originals is pretty low tech); Illegally copy or make a pdf of the item and distribute it widely among friends; C.  Aquire the copyright and reprint or update the item.  Anyone "investing" is stuff like Fazzlewood, Lost Tamoachan, POTVQ, ST1, etc needs to understand that the investment potential for these items, while serendipitous and rising, was NEVER a given and never on solid ground.  

That being said, whether or not reprints will hurt the originals remains to be seen.  The example of Comic books is given, where all the dozens and dozens of reprints has never affected the resale price of true rares.  For every example of a D&D item reprint hurting the original's price, I could give you another one where the price rose.  Dragon#1 is a good example, as well as ALL the early Dragon mags...I'm also thinking of Judge's Guild items, which have been or are being reprinted in d20 form, having no effect on the resale of original Dark Towers or Caverns of Thracia.  I find most people that protest these reprints already have a copy....and either don't want anyone else to have a copy (some people's self worth is very tied up in the items they own), or are afraid the $1000+ they paid for the item is now in the toilet.  Collectible investing is never a given, and most TRUE collectors want the ORIGINAL item, not a later reprint.  IMO, the reprints should not hurt the original values of the collectibles...and if, say, the price for an original POTVQ drops to $100 because of this, I WILL be in the market for multiple copies.
But then again, no one will know until it happens. I do know there are alot of D&D collectors and fans that realisticaly have no expectations of ever owning a Wee Warriors item, and if this scheme can get it into the hands of one of those folk, I think the interest in the hobby it can inspire offsets the possible loss of collectible value in the originals.
 I may be an abberation, but I typically purchase/aquire pdfs of products I already have, and if I come across a pdf of something I don't have, if it's well written it causes me to seek out the original print verson.  I think the release of Wee Warriors items on pdf could cause the price to rise even higher because of this effect..
People are also forgetting that the issue of producing a pdf of POTVQ and worrying if someone is going to print out fakes is a moot point.  There are AlREADY lots of these originals out there, and if anyone wants to print out a fake copy, it would take very little time or expense (the folder would be the toughest part but actually a good print shop could have these made up with no problem). LumberJaque as reliably as rain sells a Fazzlewood every year, in minty shape, and it would take very little planning for a Cougar-type to outbid everyone, get the item, and mass produce the item for purposes of profit.  I'll be honest here when I say I couldn't know for certain it hasn't already happened....? So this issue is really a non-issue as the means and material are already out there.
 I'll have more to say as comments to other posters.  I'd like to go on record as saying even though Doug got hammered here earlier, from my brief association with him I'll say I believe he's an ethical and honest individual that really is behind promoting the hobby more than anything.  I won't go into details but just say that after buying something from him and meeting him in person exactly one time, a few days later he helped me in a manner than made me realize that what we always say is true, most Acaeum members are great people (at least everyone I've ever met has been, I don't know about the Canadian members for instance, can you really trust a Canuck???  :wink: ). In a very stressful and horrible occurance he helped me, with absolutely no financial gain to himself and lots of his own time and expertise at stake.  I don't always agree with every Acaeum member, but I think most have their heart in the right place, EVEN WHEN WE DISAGREE, we support and promote the hobby (BTW none of this applies to Cougar who I don't consider a part of this hobby  :evil: ) I'm going to go out on a limb and vouch for Doug in this matter, basically if you trust me then you can trust him if this thing happens it will be done in a professional manner.

Mike B.


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Post Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 4:01 pm 
 

bclarkie wrote:Being as diplomatic as possible,  I am not sure that offering up a module that is already 1000 times too easy to fake as a pdf is going to garner much support around here nor do I many people here are going to think that its a good idea.  

Assuming Pete Kerestan actually does own the copyright to this product still, he can do whatever he wants with it, but again I don't think that it would find much of an audience at this venue...


I think a lot of collectors who are not in the market to shell out half  grand for a game item would in interested in seeing the product.  It's a shame that  lot of the rich history of this hobby is hidden away in boxes, storage rooms, filing cabinets and safes.
 The pdf would be moot point.  The means has always existed for anyone owning an original POTVQ to sell counterfeit versions if the mood hit them.  The means and materials are not that hard to find. A pdf won't change that.

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Post Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 4:04 pm 
 

Beyondthebreach wrote:There is a bit of an interesting comparison here:  With comic books, you can find any issue of note in a legal reprint.  Want to read Amazing Fantasy #15 (1st Spiderman) or Incredible Hulk #181 (1st Wolverine) - no problem!  It's easy - I bet Amazing Fantasy has been reprinted dozens of times . . . but that doesn't affect the value of the original.  They are two different worlds . .


I might pay $5.00 for a legal pdf of Dwarven Glory . . . at least at this point I'd never pay even $50.00 for an original . . . if I ever did have the spare cash to throw around on collectibles, then pdf's wouldn't be the slightest concern as I would want the item.

I collect for the item itself, not for the story it contains.


This has always been my mindset also.  Collectors don't want the wood grains for the rules......the rules have been available for years, or you can buy an OCE.  People pay premiums for the woodgrains because of the history behind the item.  People are always going to want an original Dwarven Glory, regardless if a reprint is ever published.

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