The New cougarrinard
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Post Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 2:44 pm 
 

i quite agree

it's escalated to claim level, and let the cards fall where they may.

on my part - a good (?) learning experience.


Gary H. Kramer

  


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Post Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 2:46 pm 
 

OOOhhh! You used the really bad "F" word! :oops:
And it aint Foulfoot! :elephant:

  


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Post Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 2:56 pm 
 

I truly don't care. Maybe it will be enough to get this thread killed.

Also, as I was just directly called a "fucking asslicking dickhead" on another thread, I felt I was owed at least one F-bomb.  :)

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Post Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 2:59 pm 
 

Ho Ho! Seriously i think you can just about say and suggest anything you like on these forums!

Isnt free speech wonderful!

  

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Post Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 3:02 pm 
 

Xaxaxe wrote:
A gross over-statement. And one that's been repeated enough times (including here) that many people are taking it as gospel truth.

An "item not as described" case can be difficult to win, as things can obviously degenerate pretty quickly into a he-said, she-said sort of situation. But it's certainly worth at least opening a dispute, as this forces some sort of official response from the other party. If no response is forthcoming (and I've actually seen this happen), then it's the buyer who automatically wins the dispute.

In this particular case, I'm not too optimistic, but I'd still open the dispute. The problem is that the seller is a known liar and thief who will do or say anything to put an extra dollar in his pocket. So Cougie will obviously just deny, deny, deny. If I were the buyer here, though, I'd be pointing directly at the stock photo, as eBay has some specific rules regarding this. Clearly, the item was misrepresented.

+++++

For the record, I just checked my PayPal dispute-resolution history. Of my last four cases, two were complaints I filed as a buyer for misrepresented items. I won both disputes.




For the record, I won a dispute over items "not as described" as a buyer several years ago.  However, as a caveat, the seller never responded to the accusations so I won "by default" and paypal refunded the money after about 30 days. I don't know how things would have gone had he decided to fight it.  

 The items were a stack of magazines advertised as "near mint, unread" that came to me in "poor, used to wipe an ass" condition.  Still the most misrepresented items I have ever purchased on ebay.....



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Post Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 3:18 pm 
 

I think it would be fair to say that the "item misrepresented" category of dispute is almost entirely dependent on the seller:

* A seller who is too lazy to even participate in the process (as Mike just described) is good news for the buyer;

* A seller who is willing to participate in the process and perhaps even ackowledge that an error was made (as I described earlier from my own personal experiences) is good news for the buyer;

* A seller who is just "never wrong" (Cougar) or who is a liar (Cougar) and a proven thief (Cougar) ... well, that's not such good news. If a claim can never get past the he-said, she-said level, then, yes, PayPal will almost always side with the seller.

But you'll never know anything unless you file a claim. I'm pretty sure that was my point before this thread went south in a hurry.

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Post Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 4:42 pm 
 

Wow X.  I think if anyone has woken up in a foul mood it is clearly you.  I may not have been as courteous as maybe I could have been but I do find it pretty surprising that someone here who has been a member for over 2 years, decides to buy from the Coug and is then surprised that there is a large handling charge and the items are not as described.  Then starts a new thread to discuss it when there is one 2 threads down that is 33 pages long discussing the exact same stuff.  I was blunt as to what his options really are and you even seem to agree with me.  

As far as paypal policy goes, I would be more than happy to know how you end up getting a 100% resolution satisfaction from Paypal.  I find this absolutely amazing considering the paypal and ebay are part of the same company.  Do you also get 100% satisfaction from Ebay customer service?  That would also blow my mind.

I think it might be better if you decided to check what protection buyers/sellers are covered for through paypal.  It is very clear that if a package goes missing and the seller has proof of shipping by a method acceptable to Paypal then the buyer is out of luck.  Similarly if the auction contains the magic words AS IS or condition is poorly described then significant misrepresentation of condition does not apply since there is no such description given.  Ebay allows stock photos and does not require sellers to even state that it is a stock photo (except in the special case of that phone thing).

What you seem to be describing profusely is that you can negotiate with the other party to get some resolution - this really has nothing to do with paypal or their policy aside from the fact that they offer you a venue to discuss it with the other party.  If a buyer files a claim and the other party does not wish to participate then no proof of shipping is provided and the buyer wins.  If the seller has bought the shipping through paypal, they may not even need to respond to win.

I think it is safe to say that all of this applies to any case with Coug.
* Is he  happy to negotiate a reasonable settlement? NO.
* Will he return any of your money? NO.
* Will he fail to provided proof that he sent the package?  NO.
* Do his auctions clearly describe the condition of the item? NO.

So fine, open a paypal dispute and claim it has been misrepresented because it doesn't match the stock photo provided, etc.  I have been through 5 such cases with this claim to paypal and PAYPAL has sided with the seller 4 of 5 times.  However, if from your 100% record in such circumstances, I would greatly appreciate knowing how you get paypal to side with you so often.

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Post Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 5:03 pm 
 

Pretty much all of my disputes like this are for items that show up with writing and highlighting inside.  Generally, the sellers are polite enough to apologize   for their condition but don't want to provide any compensation and its up to paypal do something about it and generally they do nothing - even after a lot of hassle emailing them and appealing/questioning their decision.

In the Coug case, I don't think he even needs to point out that the buyer left positive feedback for him and if he does, it will only help his case.  It makes me wonder if Ebay keeps track of what the buyers responses are to the 4 new feedback questions.  When leaving feedback you are faced with Item as   described, communication, shipping time, shipping and handling fees as things to rate.  If after looking at these you then decide to leave positive feedback, I think you are very hard pressed to come back later and say, no I really wasn't happy about it and I want my money back.  Positive feedback may have been left in error but that's like saying you didn't read a contract or promisary note before you signed it.  The record of your actions is there.

Any case that gkramer tries to make here, is going to be extremely weak.  So it depends on what he wants to get out of this experience.  Lesson learned for next time - great.  Compensation and a happy experience with paypal - good luck!

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Post Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 5:04 pm 
 

c'mon guys, lets stop fighting ok. it achieves nothing. lets all chill out and actually help things get sorted out. isnt that the main thing?

its nice to see things happening productively, so cmon guys.

Al



  

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Post Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 5:08 pm 
 

killjoy32 wrote:c'mon guys, lets stop fighting ok. it achieves nothing. lets all chill out and actually help things get sorted out. isnt that the main thing?

its nice to see things happening productively, so cmon guys.



I completely agree Al.  I would find it very productive to know how X gets paypal to side with him on 100% of his claims.  Because my record is at best 20% and probably worse.  Paypal always seems to decide that the items I received are not significantly misrepresented to do anything about.  If I am doing something wrong or can use some other key phrases to get a better success rate, I would appreciate it.

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Post Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 5:12 pm 
 

sounds fair enough to me.



  


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Post Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 5:25 pm 
 

Mars wrote:However, if from your 100% record in such circumstances, I would greatly appreciate knowing how you get paypal to side with you so often.

All right, part of me thinks that is more sarcasm or another insinuation that I'm making the whole thing up ... but I am going to choose to think otherwise. If it's an honest question, here's my honest response: it's not magic.

* I have had a couple of buyers say they didn't receive an item ... so I provided proof of delivery. Case closed.

* As a buyer, I've reported missing items from sellers who could not provide proof of delievery. Case closed.

* As a buyer, I've filed claims of misrepresentation three times, according to my PayPal history. Twice I was blessed with sellers who acknowledged an error had been made (one case ended up with a refund and one ended up with a subsitute item, IIRC). The third time was with a seller who never responded. I have no idea why. Case closed.

So it's just a case-by-case basis of either providing the information PayPal asked for or being lucky enough to deal with trustworthy sellers. I freely admit, again, that some luck was involved.

I honestly don't know what upsets you about this so much. I was trying to offer advice to a fellow Acaeum member who has nothing to lose by actually filing a claim (other than maybe 14 seconds of his time). I doubt he'll win — again, due to who the seller is, more than any other factor — but he has nothing to lose.

The irony here is that we actually agree that GKramer is likely to lose this case. I mean, I hope we both see that. I was not claiming anything like "Hey, GKramer, you might not be able to do it, but Xaxaxe knows the way!" :)

If anything, I'm sure my streak of good fortune would come to an end if it was me filing that claim. Cougar would just dig in all four of his heels and deny, deny, deny until the time-limit ran out. But I'd still file a claim, if for nothing else to keep him busy with having to respond.

So that's my honest answer: I've just approached every situation on a case-by-case basis and done whatever PayPal asked of me. It was not my intent to imply that I possess some sort of PayPal mojo that the rest of you don't have. Because I don't: I'm just another guy who is trying his best not to get ripped off.

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Post Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 5:27 pm 
 

Xaxaxe wrote:* As a buyer, I've filed claims of misrepresentation three times, according to my PayPal history.

Wait! It's actually four times ... and the fourth one is a doozy. It's actually a great story that might lighten the mood a bit. I'll type it up as quick as I can ...

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Post Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 5:37 pm 
 

Okay, here's an attempt at a mood-lightener. It's a true tale of a very odd way to win a "mispresented item" dispute.

A few months ago, I won a single issue of Starlog Magazine that would nicely fill a hole in my collection. The item arrived with the cover completely torn off, 8O which, of course, was nowhere mentioned in the item description. As the seller, at the time, had 100-perecent positive feedback, I chose to assume this happened in transit ... be that as it may, though, I still wanted my money back.

Well, this guy went crazy. He closes the dispute on his own, refunds my money right away, and starts sending me these ranting and raving emails about how I was "gutless" and "ripping him off" and on and on. So I said "hell with it" and sent him the same amount through PayPal (using the non-eBay goods option) with a nasty note saying that he could keep the money (it was only $7 or $8, I think).

So he refunds my refund.

So I send him the money back again.

So he refunds that, too.

For the full effect here, you've got to picture two grown men sitting at their computers sending $8 and nasty notes back and forth over the internet.

We did this one more time, too, before I finally kept the $8. I figured I was due for an unpleasant email from PayPal if I didn't stop messing around. :)

The best part to me is that the actual dispute itself was closed right away (I mentioned that the seller did so in a fit of pique). So, technically, I had already "won" this particular case ... we were just two so-called "adults" acting like complete idiots.

I was proud of myself for choosing not to ding his 100-percent feedback, though. It was tempting, but in the end I decided that he did, in fact, refund my money ... so to hit him with a negative would make me no better than the Coug. :wink:

+++++

So, yes, another case of good fortune, as far as PayPal is concerned. This seller could have fought me all the way over every little detail. Instead, he closes the dispute within the first half-hour.  :)

+++++

Edited to change "Stalog Magazine" to "Starlog Magazine." Which is sort of funny, too ...

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Post Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 10:16 pm 
 

I filed paypal disputes 4 times as well and was refunded 3 times.  All three went through the whole process and I ended up getting the cash back about 30 days after filing, two were for non-delivery and one for misrepresented item.

The one I did not get my money back requried me to send back the item at my cost and then a decision would be made.  In this case I could not trust the process and just kept the damaged item.

So there you have it.  I only wish I could just do a charge back but most of my collecting is funded through my Ebay store so everthing is paid with my paypal balence.


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Post Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 11:06 am 
 

I'm actually in the middle of a paypal dispute right now that I could use some advice on.  I purchased a set of books for around $200.  Seller supposedly sent items in 2 packages, 1 large, 1 small.  I recieved the small package, never got the big one.  They did not use delivery confirmation or insurance.  They were fairly polite about the matter, but boiled down to "They sent it, they weren't sending a partial refund for missing items"  I filed a paypal complaint and now a month later paypal says I'm going to have to file a police report for them to continue the investigation.  I emailed the seller one more time letting them know I was going to have to do that to get a refund through paypal, but they didn't respond.  So now I'm left in a quandry.  I don't know if I should file a police report because I believe that they most likely actually DID send the package, so no crime was actually done, but dang I want 2/3 my payment back or some replacement books or something.  Would ya'll file the report?  If so how should I word it?

  

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Post Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 11:16 am 
 

Reindeergamez wrote:I'm actually in the middle of a paypal dispute right now that I could use some advice on.  I purchased a set of books for around $200.  Seller supposedly sent items in 2 packages, 1 large, 1 small.  I recieved the small package, never got the big one.  They did not use delivery confirmation or insurance.  They were fairly polite about the matter, but boiled down to "They sent it, they weren't sending a partial refund for missing items"  I filed a paypal complaint and now a month later paypal says I'm going to have to file a police report for them to continue the investigation.  I emailed the seller one more time letting them know I was going to have to do that to get a refund through paypal, but they didn't respond.  So now I'm left in a quandry.  I don't know if I should file a police report because I believe that they most likely actually DID send the package, so no crime was actually done, but dang I want 2/3 my payment back or some replacement books or something.  Would ya'll file the report?  If so how should I word it?


The police will probably have a standard form for such a report.  All you probably need as part of the dispute process is a case number.


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Post Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 11:42 am 
 

Reindeergamez wrote:I'm actually in the middle of a paypal dispute right now that I could use some advice on.  I purchased a set of books for around $200.  Seller supposedly sent items in 2 packages, 1 large, 1 small.  I recieved the small package, never got the big one.  They did not use delivery confirmation or insurance.  They were fairly polite about the matter, but boiled down to "They sent it, they weren't sending a partial refund for missing items"  I filed a paypal complaint and now a month later paypal says I'm going to have to file a police report for them to continue the investigation.  I emailed the seller one more time letting them know I was going to have to do that to get a refund through paypal, but they didn't respond.  So now I'm left in a quandry.  I don't know if I should file a police report because I believe that they most likely actually DID send the package, so no crime was actually done, but dang I want 2/3 my payment back or some replacement books or something.  Would ya'll file the report?  If so how should I word it?


File the report.  I don't send anything anymore without delivery confirmation, particularly a $200 package. That was a boneheaded move on their part.
 Next time, just take a page out of Killjoy's book....cancel the credit card transaction and avoid paypal.  The ludicrous hoops they make you jump through...first of all, since the seller never had insurance or delivery confirmation, what the hell is this about filing a police report?  The money should be back in your hands the day the seller tells them they have NO WAY of proving they sent the item.  Paypal throws out half this crap because they hope you'll give up and save them a few bucks.  Follow this through and don't let them off the hook.

Mike B


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Post Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 12:02 pm 
 

And its a civil matter, and nothing really to do with the police.

As Badmike says claim via your own credit card/ bank account. You will hopefully get a better service with them.

  

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Post Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 12:13 pm 
 

Reindeergamez wrote:I'm actually in the middle of a paypal dispute right now that I could use some advice on.  I purchased a set of books for around $200.  Seller supposedly sent items in 2 packages, 1 large, 1 small.  I recieved the small package, never got the big one.  They did not use delivery confirmation or insurance.  They were fairly polite about the matter, but boiled down to "They sent it, they weren't sending a partial refund for missing items"  I filed a paypal complaint and now a month later paypal says I'm going to have to file a police report for them to continue the investigation.  I emailed the seller one more time letting them know I was going to have to do that to get a refund through paypal, but they didn't respond.  So now I'm left in a quandry.  I don't know if I should file a police report because I believe that they most likely actually DID send the package, so no crime was actually done, but dang I want 2/3 my payment back or some replacement books or something.  Would ya'll file the report?  If so how should I word it?




Well, if you think they are being honest about sending it, then why would you file a police report?  They didn't really do anything wrong.  People aren't obligated to give refunds . . . it is just something that good sellers do.  But if it was a large lot, it is probably some "Joe Schmoe" looking to get rid of their stuff . . . not a real business.



Why didn't you purchase insurance?  Well, probably the reason I never do . . . it's a rip off!  However, to remain objective on insurance, I've purchased about 800 different lots/items on ebay.  Except for a select few, I never purchase insurance.  Everything I have purchased has arrived till this point.  Thus, I have saved roughly $1,100 in insurance over the years!!!!



If I ever get nailed with a lost package and can't recoup the losses, I can take solace in the fact that I will still be hundreds of dollars ahead of the game by not having purchased insurance.



I imagine you are in much the same situation.



Write it off and move on . . .


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