Let's Kill all the 4th print DMGs...
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Poll: Would you sacrifce a 4th print 1st Ed DMG for research?

Hell no, it's like defacing the Mona Lisa 4%       4%  [ 2 ]
Hell yes, there are too many of the damn things already 15%       15%  [ 7 ]
Why are we killing the poor innocent books anyway? 25%       25%  [ 12 ]
What kind of sick demented freak tears up a DMG? 33%       33%  [ 16 ]
In the name of science, here is my 4th print DMG! 23%       23%  [ 11 ]
Total votes : 48

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Post Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 1:53 am 
 

Deimos said:

Well, thanks for the offer, but I doubt you'll want to contribute once you know what's involved.  

I'm hoping to obtain several (about twenty or so) low-condition, low-cost 4th printings of the DMG -- to rip them apart and look for yellow bits of paper.  Because I'm not willing or able to put much money or time into this endeavour, I haven't actually obtained any yet.

It was actually Paul's suggestion, in this thread:
viewtopic.php?p=69026&highlight=bits+paper #69026


Just interested in what the average collector thinks about Deimos' plan to tear up 4th print DMGs looking for yellow paper in the binding to prove a printing theory....!

Mike B.


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Post Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 9:18 am 
 

You know, if I had a 2nd one I'd give it up for science, but till then, I'll just keep it safely on my shelf.

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Post Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 10:30 am 
 

Madness...like cutting up a medieval Damascus blade to see how it was made (which is exactly what one science magazine did).

Mark


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Post Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 10:33 am 
 

For the record, I'm not going after all of them, just ones in already miserable condition.  Even "Good" condition is too expensive (and surprisingly, in demand) for this sort of thing.  Think of it as strengthening the species by killing off the sick, old, and weak.

That being said, if the experiment comes to a positive conclusion, I will effectively "kill all 4th printings" -- they'll be some sort of 3rds.

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Post Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 10:35 am 
 

Everytime you masterbate, Deimos3428 kills a DMG, please think of the DMG's...

:P


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Post Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 12:57 pm 
 

bclarkie wrote:Everytime you masterbate, Deimos3428 kills a DMG, please think of the DMG's...

:P


Just how many of these exist?!!!! :lol:

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Post Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 1:06 pm 
 

That's insane.  Despite the going opinion people actually still, y'know, PLAY 1st edition AD&D and I'd like to be able to point those who are interested in doing so at online resources where they can buy a physical copy of the book still.

Not everyone is in this for rares to vacuum seal and put into a safety deposit box where it will appreicate to one meeeelion dollars.

:roll:

  


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Post Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 1:15 pm 
 

DungeonDelver wrote:That's insane.  Despite the going opinion people actually still, y'know, PLAY 1st edition AD&D and I'd like to be able to point those who are interested in doing so at online resources where they can buy a physical copy of the book still.

Not everyone is in this for rares to vacuum seal and put into a safety deposit box where it will appreicate to one meeeelion dollars.

:roll:


This isn't in the name of money at all.  :?   This is simply a research item to find out the print sequence of the DMG as it was.  If Paul's suspicions are confirmed through further research, then the monetary value of a fourth print DMG(or 3rd Gamma or whatever it ends up as) is likely to increase the value of it to the princely sum of......$0.  Since EGG's memory is unreliable at best, particularly in this type of situation, things like this need to happen in order to find out the facts, unless of course you offering a better way to handle it.


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Post Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 1:23 pm 
 

Is there no limit to the madness of print-run junkies?  :wink:

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Post Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 1:31 pm 
 

bclarkie wrote:
This isn't in the name of money at all.  :?   This is simply a research item to find out the print sequence of the DMG as it was.  If Paul's suspicions are confirmed through further research, then the monetary value of a fourth print DMG(or 3rd Gamma or whatever it ends up as) is likely to increase the value of it to the princely sum of......$0.  Since EGG's memory is unreliable at best, particularly in this type of situation, things like this need to happen in order to find out the facts, unless of course you offering a better way to handle it.


Did you ask Frank?  He's generally on top of this sort of thing.

  


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Post Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 9:40 pm 
 

DungeonDelver wrote:Did you ask Frank?  He's generally on top of this sort of thing.

If Frank (or anyone else) has any information on the subject, I'm all ears, of course.  However, I don't think Frank was at TSR when this printing was made.  In any event, 28 year old anecdotal evidence isn't very reliable or sufficient for this sort of thing, regardless of the source.  Memories fade.

I'm not surprised that the majority of Acaeum members polled would cringe at the thought of ever opening the spine of a book to gather information.  That's precisely why I'm doing it -- nobody else will, and I want to know.  If anyone knows of another way to resolve the matter, I'm definitely open to suggestions.

To specifically address DungeonDelver's highlighted concerns:

1.  Nobody's making a dime on this one.  I expect to be out of pocket $100-150 USD, perhaps more, and I may not even find out what I want to know.  Such is the price of research, sometimes.  I'm not asking others to contribute, but if they choose to do so, great.  I'll post whatever I find out when I find it out.

2.  There's no shortage of 1E DMGs out there.  Using admittedly quick math, 40,000 copies x 14 printings, we're talking 560,000 copies.  That's probably low; later printings would be greater in number, as the game gained in popularity in the 80s.  So there are likely millions of DMGs out there.  The effect on players, online resources, and available physical copies of the DMG will be unnoticably small.  I'm sure more perish in basement floods each month than I'll ever destroy -- and those ones don't give us any useful information, they just get soggy.

3.  If the hypothesis is proven, there may be a momentary rush for a newly verified "3rd Gamma" -- but it won't last long, given the number of available books involved.  A similar rush on the "True 1st" DMGs occurred when it was made known, and it has definitely subsided.

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Post Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 11:39 pm 
 

deimos3428 wrote:If Frank (or anyone else) has any information on the subject, I'm all ears, of course.  However, I don't think Frank was at TSR when this printing was made.  In any event, 28 year old anecdotal evidence isn't very reliable or sufficient for this sort of thing, regardless of the source.  Memories fade.

I'm not surprised that the majority of Acaeum members polled would cringe at the thought of ever opening the spine of a book to gather information.  That's precisely why I'm doing it -- nobody else will, and I want to know.  If anyone knows of another way to resolve the matter, I'm definitely open to suggestions.

To specifically address DungeonDelver's highlighted concerns:

1.  Nobody's making a dime on this one.  I expect to be out of pocket $100-150 USD, perhaps more, and I may not even find out what I want to know.  Such is the price of research, sometimes.  I'm not asking others to contribute, but if they choose to do so, great.  I'll post whatever I find out when I find it out.

2.  There's no shortage of 1E DMGs out there.  Using admittedly quick math, 40,000 copies x 14 printings, we're talking 560,000 copies.  That's probably low; later printings would be greater in number, as the game gained in popularity in the 80s.  So there are likely millions of DMGs out there.  The effect on players, online resources, and available physical copies of the DMG will be unnoticably small.  I'm sure more perish in basement floods each month than I'll ever destroy -- and those ones don't give us any useful information, they just get soggy.

3.  If the hypothesis is proven, there may be a momentary rush for a newly verified "3rd Gamma" -- but it won't last long, given the number of available books involved.  A similar rush on the "True 1st" DMGs occurred when it was made known, and it has definitely subsided.


All kidding aside, if I do find a 4th ed DMG in bad shape, I'll ship it to you so you can put it out of it's misery, deimos, and maybe solve the print run mystery.... :D

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Post Posted: Sat May 05, 2007 2:29 pm 
 

What about...like...X-rays...like they use on mummies...or something?


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Post Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 3:15 pm 
 

FormCritic wrote:What about...like...X-rays...like they use on mummies...or something?

At first I thought you were joking, because we all know x-rays are the stuff of comic books.   :)

Seriously though, I have no experience in such things.  My minimal understanding of the technology makes me skeptical that it can determine the hue of paper.  (I also don't have access to an X-ray machine.  If I did, I'd have tried to turn myself into Spiderman by now...)

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Post Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 3:50 pm 
 

Let me ask you something, Demios - how "destroyed" will the books be once you're done?  And how distressed are they now?  Are we talking about volumes missing pages, whole sections colored in or stained beyond readability or what?

  


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Post Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 7:36 pm 
 

DungeonDelver wrote:Let me ask you something, Demios - how "destroyed" will the books be once you're done?  And how distressed are they now?  Are we talking about volumes missing pages, whole sections colored in or stained beyond readability or what?

Well, its currently hypothetical as I currently have only one copy -- and it's in approximately "VG"; far too nice!

The ideal candidates would be trashed to begin with, except for their spines (which obviously need to be present and somewhat intact.).  I'll be opening the spine as surgically as possible, but it's unlikely they'll be of any future use once that's completed.  Being the packrat I am, they will be kept until Mrs. Deimos makes me recycle them, or I use the pages as packing material.

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Post Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 3:54 pm 
 

well no, I don't even have one yet!


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Post Posted: Sun May 13, 2007 1:15 pm 
 

deimos3428 wrote:Well, its currently hypothetical as I currently have only one copy -- and it's in approximately "VG"; far too nice!

The ideal candidates would be trashed to begin with, except for their spines (which obviously need to be present and somewhat intact.).  I'll be opening the spine as surgically as possible, but it's unlikely they'll be of any future use once that's completed.  Being the packrat I am, they will be kept until Mrs. Deimos makes me recycle them, or I use the pages as packing material.


Deimos,

I have a fair 4th print DMG that I would be willing to send you, but the spine "edges" have separated from the book itself. The actual back spine is still there, but is somewhat "unattached" as well. In fact, I can see the stitching and the two staples, but no evidence of yellow-orange paper. I will PM you to see if you want me to send you this poor, sick, and dying creature :( .

Hope this Helps,


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Post Posted: Sun May 13, 2007 7:13 pm 
 

PM-Knight wrote:
Deimos,

I have a fair 4th print DMG that I would be willing to send you, but the spine "edges" have separated from the book itself. The actual back spine is still there, but is somewhat "unattached" as well. In fact, I can see the stitching and the two staples, but no evidence of yellow-orange paper. I will PM you to see if you want me to send you this poor, sick, and dying creature :( .

Hope this Helps,

It does indeed!  The very fact that it has staples (are you sure there aren't three, by the way?) would suggest it's been rebound.  I feel sort of silly that I hadn't thought to check for staples.  :oops:

Considering that the only printing in desperate need of being rebound at this point would be the "Third Alpha", and it adds weight to the theory that the current 4th is truly the "Third Gamma".  Still, the only way to tell for certain is to find bits of the original yellow endpapers.

More importantly, it's easier to find people willing to check their copies for the existence of staples.  If several 4th-owners can run a bar magnet over their spines (or whatever) and confirm their presence, that'd be useful.

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Post Posted: Sun May 13, 2007 7:48 pm 
 

deimos3428 wrote:It does indeed!  The very fact that it has staples (are you sure there aren't three, by the way?) would suggest it's been rebound.  I feel sort of silly that I hadn't thought to check for staples.  :oops:


Definitely only two staples, one at the top & one at the bottom. In addition, there is a rough, almost fabric or gauze-like material on the inside of the spine that the staples and stitching go through.

I also have a VF 4th print (not willing to sacrifice), but it has a piece of thread (binding) that is underneath the inside of the back cover. It runs from the middle of the spine to the very edge of the pasted inside endpaper. Not sure if that helps lend any more clues to your investigation :wink:

Hope that Helps,


"Okay, we turn the corner and see a Purple 'WHAT' !?!" . . (the DM rolls a 20 or so he says) . . It all went black right after that.

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